Nellyfox wrote:The definition of a neutral benign is a role with no set alignment until they choose to have one. Amnesiac fits that category.
Then, by that same defition, Executioner and Jester are both Neutral Benign as well.
Nellyfox wrote:The definition of a neutral benign is a role with no set alignment until they choose to have one. Amnesiac fits that category.
AssassinOfDoom wrote:The Disguiser change is genius, as it doesn't make it another form of the forger. I like the BG and Vig buffs. The Framer change to fool town over how the victim dies seems nice. If the Mayor can be healed by Doctors, what will prevent them from insta-revealing? I think the Framer making the Mafia appear as confirmed town to the Investigator nerfs the Investigator a bit too much. The other changes, I am either neutral or against, but I don't want to make this too long.
Edit: Actually, I think Ice's suggestion to let the Jester RNG Haunt a random Townie will make the town even more scared to lynch. Since the Jester is unaligned, which I agree should be, it should also be given the ability to harm the baddies, since it favours no side. If the Jester can haunt a baddy, then Town wouldn't be so scared, but still likely to die since Town usually have majority in most games. I'm sure once they lose majority, the baddies would lynch a Jester to settle a Stalemate, which gives the game more of a complex side.
hewhohasnoname wrote:Town should keep the death notes its an important element of their thinking process during the kill other than that its really comedic Removing the death notes isn't going to change the balance all it does is reduce the fun.........
orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.
http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 14&t=20374
Someguyinabobz wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374
Consig can freely share the info without worries killing half the point of spy
Someguyinabobz wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:How does that make Consig "OP"? All it does is reduce Mafia coordination, which cripples the faction. They're supposed to be the informed minority, not the half-informed minority that gives all of their info to a self-confirmable member of the majority.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=20374
Consig can freely share the info without worries killing half the point of spy
orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.
There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.
PolyesterHomes wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.
There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.
Why?
The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.
Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.
Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.
Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.
If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
yousername wrote:I completely agree with the spy changes. At first I thought "This is bullshit!", but then after reviewing the current argument I have to say that I'm convinced that spy being unable to read mafia chat will not only balance the game which is what this role list is here for, but also allow mafia to function the way it should.
Plus, this does not make consigliere over powered. Upon being asked to post his will, town will notice that key roles die the night after he investigates them. This will require townies to think for a minute, but anyone who is half-competent will realize his malicious intent.
yousername wrote:Do spies still see who the mafia visits each night?
yousername wrote:Oh wait, wasn't there something in the OP about spy only being able to read whispers upon his three nights of choosing? I think that's unnecessary, but I can understand that mafia would still be afraid to whisper mid-day. Unless of course they have a consort who stops the spy, then they're home free
yousername wrote:This is just a random suggestion (although I like it a bit more than the current one), what if the spy were able to choose one name each night, and read the whispers to and from that person from the previous day?
FOR EXAMPLE:
Day 2:
X whispered to Y
X Whispered to Z
Y Whispered to X
A Whispered to B
Night 2:
You decided to read X's whispers from the previous day
X whispered to Y: Hey, I know you're witch
X whispered to Z: I'm no mafia!
Y Whispered to X: Hellz yeah mah mafioso broso!
yousername wrote:ALSO!
Even from the lore perspective, the Blackmailer reading whispers makes sense.
1.) Blackmailers work with secrets, right? How are you supposed to use secrets against people if they keep their secrets from you!
2.) Blackmailers don't instantly get lynched when an investigator hits them and they can't do a spy test.
yousername wrote:ANOTHER NOTE!
if we're getting the useless roles out of ranked then disguiser shouldn't be roll-able
PolyesterHomes wrote:The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.
PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.
If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
orangeandblack5 wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.
Really.
Jester in no way prevents mass lynches IN RANKED. People in Ranked are either in high enough Elo that they won't be random lynching or low enough that they're too bad for it to matter. Jester is just Freelo to the person that rolls it and a deterrent to smart play. It stalls the game, nothing more. Just because that helps the evils doesn't mean that it's good; in this case, it lowers the skill ceiling of the game, which is bad.
Survivors force people to "play politics"? Don't make me laugh. They are inherently scum-leaning, yet all they do is waste a kill or a lynch, because neither side can afford the loss the Survivor turning against them brings. The only "politics" involved with Survivors is being nice and/or begging on your figurative knees so that they may be more likely to side with you. It promotes kingmaker scenarios and lets an unaligned Neutral role decide entire games. In no way is this "crucial", and in every way does it unbalance the game.
Amnesiacs, on the other hand, are literally free Townies. I've seen less than 10 Amnesiacs join the Neutrals or the Mafia in all of my Ranked games, because that is a terrible strategy. Investigators hardcounter any "freedom" to choose a side Amnesiacs have, and they essentially force kingmakers days in advance. Amnesiacs are almost as swingy as Survivors, with the only reason they're not more swingy being that it is terrible Amnesiac play 9 times out of 10, and most of the remaining 10% is still worse than joining Town.PolyesterHomes wrote:Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.
No, they don't. Yes, convincing people of your innocence as scum is a big part of the game. However, begging the NBs for your win is NOT the type of "silver-tongued" discussion that the game needs.PolyesterHomes wrote:Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.
What reason is that? Promoting kingmakers? Plus, the "lore" is that he leaves the Town. The only other alternative to this that I've thought of is removing its night immunity after it hangs its target AND making it so that the Town must kill Executioners to win (basically Exe has Witch wincons, except it doesn't use them to win). This would keep its vote for the scum and get rid of the "lynch my target for a night immune Townie" idea; however, it can still side with Town after hanging its target if it really wants to, which is a problem because at that point it's not gamethrowing like a Witch siding with Town would be. So.PolyesterHomes wrote:Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.
If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
Really.
Balance > Lore
Juuhazan wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.
There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.
Why?
The Jester is a important part of the game. Prevents mass lynches and such.
NB's don't unbalance the game, they are crucial parts of the game.
Survivors force both sides to play politics.
Amnesiac's can bring back hope for a given side, and can be convinced with more diplomacy.
Is Town of Salem not a game of convincing people to trust you? To believe you? A game between Silver tongues?
NB's only serve to facilitate that.
Same reason Exe's shouldn't die when their target is lynched, apart from it not making sense whatsoever.
Oh, and for the record, Spy should remain the way it is. Last time I checked, criminal groups don't go around using each others real names when discussing criminal activities, they use code names.
If you want, we could give each mafia member a random code name the mafia can call each other instead of changing the spy. (Chains, Hoxton, Dallas, Wolf, for example. Heck, maybe let them pick their role name in the setup screen under a nickname section that only comes into play if you're a part of a known group someone on the outside can hear.)
Not in Ranked they aren't. NBs only serve to be swing factors. Surv? Free mafia vote. Lynch. Amne? Free townie. It doesn't really become a game of skill when the game gives one side a buff at random.
It's like random crits in TF2. There is a reason they are off in comp servers and any other server worth their salt. Do you like getting killed by a pellet that shouldn't have normally killed you? Likewise, do you like losing because of a kingmaker?
And are you saying the Spy shouldn't be changed? Are you daft?
PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.
TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.
^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh
PolyesterHomes wrote:TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:A half decent mafia can easily get around a Spy.
^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh
No, it's why spy seeing Mafia chat shouldn't be removed.
TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:TrueGent wrote:^Why spy seeing Maf chat should be removed ttttttttttttttbbbbbbbbbbbbhhhhhhhhhhh
No, it's why spy seeing Mafia chat shouldn't be removed.
If the Mafia can easily get around it then what does the Spy gain from having it?
Spoilers: its nothing
PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.
TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.
You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.
TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.
You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.
PolyesterHomes wrote:-reallybigsnipaboutNBs-
hewhohasnoname wrote:TrueGent wrote:PolyesterHomes wrote:But if the mafia isn't good, Spy can gain a lot by having it. You're trying to balance it for high level play while ignoring low level play.
You balance for high level play because thats where all players end up eventually.
Keeping something in the game just because it 'could' help lower level players 'sometimes' is a stupid argument when it hurts high level play to the degree that it does.
seeing chat isn't useless
mafia chat basically gives away what roles they have in their arsenal
the quality of the spy determines their usefulness
they are easy to confirm and can distract mafia
not revealing until questioned can actually work to your advantage getting the mafia think they can get away with whispering while also seeing who they visit
taking away from the spy doesn't really make sense here. Its fun seeing what the mafia are up to and when I am the spy, My reports always make the mafia want to kill me
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