Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Leave your suggestions about the game here!

Are Town Leader (formerly Town Power) and the resulting Mayor/Retributionist buffs good ideas?

Buff Mayor and Retributionist so they can fit in Town Leader with the more powerful Jailor.
142
56%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Add another Town Leader role.
31
12%
Make Retributionist die when it revives a player and keep it Town Support. Have only Mayor and Jailor as Town Leader.
25
10%
Nerf Mayor and Retributionist, and have a confirmed Jailor. No Town Leader.
56
22%
 
Total votes : 254

Town of Salem 1.5 - Outdated?

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:38 am

Edit: Computer is broken. Will update when fixed. Promise.

It's back baby! (and yes I know that we're past ToS 1.5.0, but I'm not changing the thread title)

Welcome to the new, improved, and re-purposed Town of Salem 1.5 thread (previously known as Town of Salem 2.0).

This was, surprisingly, kicked off by something that Mroz4k said in a random thread not long ago.
Spoiler:
Mroz4k wrote:Lets come up with a series of changes to the most troublesome parts of the game, ones that we all will agree upon, and push them as a change together.

I am not talking about another Town of Salem V.2 - nothing on that scale. I am thinking about sitting down, figuring out what are the biggest problems with the game right now, and try to make simple adjustments that would eradicate it with huge emphasis on not over-buffing/over-nerfing the allignment (which was the biggest problem of the Town of Salem V.2).

Here are my thoughts on things that need changing the most:
  • Easily confirmable roles = preferable removal of ability to "confirm" for most of them, others ability to confirm themselves in some sort of nerfed form:
    Mayor, Retributionist, ressurected Town, Veteran, Spy, Vigilante.
  • Needed buff for Disguiser, Framer, Forger
  • increase to win rate of Neutral Killings (collective or individual buffs)
  • new, better Ranked rolelist, in consideration of these other changes
  • changes to Vampire and Vampire Hunter

So, here's the basic idea. This is a compilation of the best, most popular, and most agreed-upon suggestions in the ToS community. They are all things that most players have agreed need to be done, and sooner rather than later. It will be a much smaller list than the original ToS 2.0 thread was, but it will also be much less debatable, because everything in this list has already been debated to death and everything here has been mostly agreed upon. This should hopefully result in less fighting and more pushing the devs to fix the largest holes in the game right now. Now, with all that said, here's the list:
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Spy Changes:
Spoiler: -Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to see Mafia visits every night, instead give it one "supersensor" where when the Spy clicks on itself at night it sees Mafia visits for that night
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-Give it some other visiting ability, such as visiting somebody to see who they visit or checking somebody each night to see if their alignment is the same or different from the previous person's

Blackmailer Changes:
Spoiler: -Remove ability to read whispers
-Blackmailed targets can now only change their vote every 8 seconds (preventing the "vote spam to show blackmailed" tactic)

Framer Changes:
Spoiler: -Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts
-If the Spy can still see Mafia visits when Framer is buffed, now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including the Framer itself), and makes the framed target's visit show up to the Spy
-[Maybe] Now has one team frame per game, where it can visit one of its teammates and make them appear framed
-[Maybe] When it dies, it now shows up as the role of the last role it framed in the graveyard

Disguiser Changes:
Spoiler: -On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will)
-On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed
-On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed

Doctor Changes:
Spoiler: -Healed targets of attacks now show up as immune to the attacker
Bodyguard Changes:
Spoiler: -Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target
-Can not be healed when sacrificed protecting somebody
-Can not protect from Arsonist's douse

Vigilante Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
Veteran Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
Jailor Changes:
Spoiler: -Death Note Removed
-Number of executions reduced to 2 (and/or some other nerf, because holy crap this thing is OP)

Arsonist Changes:
Spoiler: -Douses now give no feedback notification
-Dousing an undoused target now extends the draw detector by one night
-Now makes doused targets "smell like gas" to an Investigator for the night they are doused and the next two nights, effectively framing them as an Arsonist
-Now detectable by Sheriff

Sheriff Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now detect Arsonist
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons
-Can now detect Vampires

Amnesiac Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now remember as Godfather or Mafioso if no other Mafia roles are dead
-Doing so with only one Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered (if the only living MK role is GF you become a Mafioso and vice-versa)
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role (if both a GF and a Mafioso are alive you roll a new Mafia role)
-No longer gives a Town-wide notification upon remembering a role
-Remembering a role now extends the draw counter

Transporter Changes:
Spoiler: -No longer gives feedback notifications
-Can no longer transport Jester guilt

Executioner Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now read whispers while alive
-Can no longer have any Town Leader role as its target if TL is implemented
-Now loses night immunity after hanging its target
-Town must now kill it to win (the game cannot end in Town victory if an Executioner is alive)
-[Maybe] You are now told the role of your target

Forger Changes:
Spoiler: -Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched targets

Godfather Changes:
Spoiler: -Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box
-Can now read whispers

Werewolf Changes:
Spoiler: -Now detectable by Sheriff on non-full moon nights
-Still cannot kill on Night 1, no matter what
-Always kills visitors on full moon nights OR can kill on non-full moon nights if it didn't kill 2+ people the night before OR can kill every night, but killing 2+ people removes its kill for the next night, or something I don't care just buff him

Witch Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now control people that have left but are not yet dead
-Controls now force your target to visit, even if they have used up their night ability (this also causes Survivor to visit instead of putting on a vest, unless you make them target themself)
-A control does not act as a visit (Witch is immune to Lookout, Veteran, and visiting a house where a Werewolf is rampaging)
-The first time you are attacked by an evil role you will automatically protect yourself by controlling your attacker (the attacker will receive both "you have been controlled" and "you have hit an immune target" messages)

Alignment Changes:
Spoiler: -Town Leader added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor) (formerly known as Town Power)
-Neutral Benign changed to Neutral Unaligned (or not, I don't care, but apparently other people do)
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes

Jester Changes:
Spoiler: -Now Neutral Unaligned (or Neutral Benign)
Vampire Hunter Changes:
Spoiler: -Changed to the Hunter
New Role:
Spoiler: -Added the Osservatore (but it can't read whispers)
Investigator Changes:
Spoiler: -Change Investigator Results List to:
  • Framer, Vampire, Arsonist, (Recently Doused Targets), (Framed Targets)
  • Escort, Veteran, Consort
  • Transporter, Blackmailer, Amnesiac
  • Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist
  • Bodyguard, Hunter, Mafioso
  • Investigator, Consigliere
  • Lookout, Osservatore, Witch
  • Doctor, Forger, Serial Killer
  • Spy, Sheriff, Godfather, Executioner
  • Medium, Janitor, Jester
  • Vigilante, Survivor, Disguiser, Werewolf

Role-list Changes:
Spoiler:
  • Town Leader
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Town Support OR Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Random Mafia
  • Random Mafia
  • Neutral Killing
  • Neutral Evil

Mayor Changes:
Spoiler: -Can now be healed by Doctors
-Can now whisper
-If Town Leader (formerly Power) is not implemented, reduce votes to two.

Retributionist Changes:
Spoiler: -Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Leader)

The other option is to nerf the Ret so it dies when it revives somebody and not make it a part of the Town Leader (formerly Power) grouping. However, this would require a reshuffle of the Investigator results list and potentially warrant the addition of a new Town Leader role.

Vampire Changes:
Spoiler: -Remove 'em or something. At the very least, they should not be allowed outside of Chaos gamemodes.
Gamemode Changes:
Spoiler: -New gamemode "Chaotic Custom", which is an exact copy of Custom but in the Chaos section and will host all of the crazy games
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you don't understand any of these suggestions, feel free to ask for clarification. If I goofed and forgot something, let me know!


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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:43 am

GJ Oragne.Also,I don't agree with the maybes from Spy and Bm.

Now Neutral Benign
-YES!FINALLY!
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby houyin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:31 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Role-list Changes:
  • Town Power
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Support
  • Town Support
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Mafia Support
  • Mafia Deception
  • Neutral Killing
  • Neutral Evil



With this change, it makes unable to roll Jester(the NB version), Survivor and Amnesiac, so I think it's kinda bad, it's all good to make it unable to roll vampires, but those 3 must be a factor.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:24 am

houyin wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Role-list Changes:
  • Town Power
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Support
  • Town Support
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Mafia Support
  • Mafia Deception
  • Neutral Killing
  • Neutral Evil



With this change, it makes unable to roll Jester(the NB version), Survivor and Amnesiac, so I think it's kinda bad, it's all good to make it unable to roll vampires, but those 3 must be a factor.



A suggestion I was once made could possibly help here.I once suggested to allow fusions(especially for custom).

What is a fusion?Gonna give you some examples:

Sk/Arso.The fusion between Sk and Arso.It means that the role from this spot will either be Arso or either a Sk
Town Support/Town Protective.A fusion between two alignments.The role from this spot will be either be Ts or Town Protective

You can fuse anything

Maybe have a fusion of Ne and Nb,so the role could either be a Ne or a Nb.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:26 am

Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.

There is zero reason that roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) should be in Ranked.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Mroz4k » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:36 am

Vampire is not going to be balanced out, so I am glad it cant be on Ranked list. As for Neutral Benings - Survivor and Amnesiac - I am not too sad about those two either, though it does somewhat affect the claimability of evil roles, those two roles gave them a little bit of claim space. With Jester gone as well, I think it would be way too much of a buff to Town, tbh.

Then again there are some changes in this thread I wouldnt support. Like the Jester suggestion, for example (I still think its Neutral Evil. Frankly I am not too against combining Neutral Evil with Neutral Benign, or just re-structuralizing the sub-allignments better then they currently are)

I am going to keep close tabs on this suggestion, if me and Orange come to agree on some basic things to go by, this thread on its own could one day have quite a potential.

Once I find some time to let it all go through my brain and compare them all together, I will make bigger opinion comment on these changes.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby houyin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:44 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Neutral Benigns unbalance the game, and letting one roll instead of the Neutral Evil is a bad idea.

There is zero reason role roles that are benign (aka don't do anything) to be in Ranked.



A reason to have jester as a factor is people gets afraid to just go allin random lynching.
A reason to have Survivor as a factor is to have the mafia or the town wanting to side with a neutral for achieving their goals.
Same thing as Survivor to Amnesiac.


Making a role permanently out of the ranked rolelist is bad and should never be a thing.

Also the Vet/Surv/WW result is garbage if there's no chance of Survivor in the rolelist.

Vet is unique and easy to confirm even if there's no deathnote, since townies always leave a last will visiting "player4 night 2" and dying to a Veteran
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:50 am

Jester and executioner used to be neutral benign. Then they got moved. Jester should remain neutral evil because it doesn't pick a side as blatant as other benign roles.

Didn't read anything else yet, sorry.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:54 am

Ah but

But but but

Jester isn't evil either

In fact, it's much more able to pick a side than be evil. Plus, all it does is stall games and force kingmakers (like the other Neutral Benigns). It fits much better there than in Neutral Evil.

At least you're not arguing "but it can kill one person!", because that argument makes no sense.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby houyin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:56 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah but

But but but

Jester isn't evil either

In fact, it's much more able to pick a side than be evil. Plus, all it does is stall games and force kingmakers (like the other Neutral Benigns). It fits much better there than in Neutral Evil.

At least you're not arguing "but it can kill one person!", because that argument makes no sense.



if the town was dumb enough to leave a jester/survivor alive because "i like survivors" "i wont waste my bullets/executions on a jester" its town's fault, they played bad, that's why it ended in a kingmaker scenario.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby theo07 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:00 am

I'm on Orange's side on this one.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby houyin » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:02 am

theo07 wrote:I'm on Orange's side on this one.



Removing neutrals buff's town, and town does not need any buffs, and this rolelist is removing 3 out of 5 neutrals. (not counting the killing ones).
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:05 am

orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah but

But but but

Jester isn't evil either

In fact, it's much more able to pick a side than be evil. Plus, all it does is stall games and force kingmakers (like the other Neutral Benigns). It fits much better there than in Neutral Evil.

At least you're not arguing "but it can kill one person!", because that argument makes no sense.

Jester is more evil than benign and that is pretty clear. It doesn't force kingmakers, everyone else forces the kingmaker by not killing or lynching them.

And yes, it kills someone so it's definitely NK. Looks like we both are wrong. :roll:
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Gobln » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:05 am

houyin wrote:
theo07 wrote:I'm on Orange's side on this one.



Removing neutrals buff's town, and town does not need any buffs, and this rolelist is removing 3 out of 5 neutrals. (not counting the killing ones).

This is so false and misinformed. Please learn how balance actually works.


Neutral Benigns heavily favor town.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:07 am

houyin wrote:A reason to have jester as a factor is people gets afraid to just go allin random lynching.

Jesters stalling lynches is a BAD thing. Executioner is as far as I'm willing to go. You shouldn't need the possibility of a Jester to stop you from getting hanged in Ranked.

houyin wrote:Also the Vet/Surv/WW result is garbage if there's no chance of Survivor in the rolelist.

Vet is unique and easy to confirm even if there's no deathnote, since townies always leave a last will visiting "player4 night 2" and dying to a Veteran

I could swap Survivor for Vampire Hunter or Bodyguard. If anything, it would be Vampire Hunter. However, depending on which Vamp/VH idea wins out that literally does nothing.

Still, it's something I've considered.

Gobln wrote:Neutral Benigns heavily favor town.

This is part of why Jester should be added to it. Jester can choose sides, but it favors no-one.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby ICECLIMBERS » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:26 am

Probably screwed up the formatting at some point but oh well.
Spoiler: Spy Changes:
-Remove ability to read Mafia night chat
-Remove ability to read whispers once dead
-[Maybe] Now has three night actions that let it read whispers on the next day
Sure
Blackmailer Changes:
-Can read whispers when not Blackmailing
-[Maybe] Uses a daytime action to hear all whispers for the day (including ones sent before the day action was used), but cannot blackmail the following night
If they don’t give it to framer and it’s still paired with spy, then sure.
Framer Changes:
-Now makes framed targets appear with the Mafia Killing role to Lookouts
-Now makes Mafia members show up as Not Suspicious to a Sheriff and confirmed Town to Investigator
No. Lookout part is unneeded and ruins part of what lookout does. Second part would be the only use framer would ever get to be honest. Just frame yourself and hope you get checked. Look, framer is supposed to incriminate other people, not make the mafia look like the good guys.
-Now makes any Mafia visits to the framed target not show up to Spy (including Framer) [b]Or have spy see who the framed target visits, but yeah.

-Can now change apparent cause of death via moon button, priority Vig>BG>GF/Maf>Jailor>SK>Arso>Jester>WW>Vet Ew.
Disguiser Changes:
-On first disguise, the Disguiser´s Last Will is displayed (acts as a forge, but uses the Disguiser's actual last will).
-On second disguise, the first victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-On third disguise, the second victim´s Last Will is displayed.
-Upon death, the most recent victim's Last Will is displayed (only way the third victim's Last Will will be displayed).
Seems a bit complex to me. I’d prefer for disguiser to be removed, but I guess this could maybe work?
Bodyguard Changes:
-Can only kill Werewolf when its target is attacked, not when its target visits the Werewolf's target Yes
Vigilante Changes:
-Death Note Removed Sure
-Cannot shoot revealed Mayor unless controlled or target is transported Or just ban gamethrowers
Veteran Changes:
-Death Note Removed Sure
Jailor Changes:
-Death Note Removed Sure. Maybe remove an execution as well.
Arsonist Changes:
-Douses now give no feedback notification Nah. I don’t really like this. If it’s implemented at least give the feedback to other arsonists so they don’t kill themselves.
-Now detectable by Sheriff after first ignite Ewwww. You do realize that arsonist is detection immune since it can be roleblocked, right? Serial Killer can be detected since it can’t be roleblocked.
Sheriff Changes:
-Can now detect Arsonist after first ignite
-Can now detect Werewolf on non-full moons
-Can now detect Vampires
-Or scrap all of the above changes and make it a parity cop
Nope.
Amnesiac Changes:
-Can now remember as Godfather or Mafioso if no other Mafia roles are dead
-Doing so with either Mafia Killing role alive makes you the other one, regardless of which one you remembered
-Doing so with both Mafia Killing roles alive rolls you a Random Mafia role
-No longer gives a notification for remembering a role this
Also let it remember werewolf.
Transporter Changes:
-No longer gives feedback notifications Makes it less confirmable but also more of a detriment to town.
Executioner Changes:
-Can now have Spy as its target
-Can no longer have any Town Power role as its target
-Now dies after hanging its target Just remove night immunity after target is lynched instead.
Jester Changes:
-Now Neutral Benign No. See what Nelly wrote. And Nelly knows a lot more about playing neutral evil than anybody else.
[b]Forger Changes:

-Forged Will can now be edited during the day or nights when you haven't picked anybody
-Forges carry over into the next day and affect lynched targets
Sure
Godfather Changes:
-Can choose which Mafia member is promoted next via buttons in the Mafia box
Sure
Alignment Changes:
-Town Power added (Ret, Mayor, Jailor) Sure
-Neutral Chaos removed OR restricted to Chaos game modes Pointless
Investigator Changes:
-Change Investigator Results List to:
  • Framer, Vampire
  • Escort, Consort
  • Spy, Blackmailer
  • Mayor, Jailor, Retributionist
  • Vigilante, Bodyguard, Mafioso
  • Investigator, Consigliere, Amnesiac
  • Lookout, Forger, Arsonist
  • Doctor, Disguiser, Serial Killer
  • Sheriff, Godfather, Executioner
  • Medium, Janitor, Jester
  • Transporter, Vampire Hunter, Witch
  • Veteran, Survivor, Werewolf
Framer/Vampire. Lookout/Arsonist. Veteran/Werewolf. Enough to /veto this entire list. Give arso or wolf bodyguard at least.
Role-list Changes:
  • Town Power
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Investigative
  • Town Support
  • Town Support
  • Town Protective
  • Town Killing
  • Random Town
  • Random Town
  • Godfather
  • Mafioso
  • Mafia Support
  • Mafia Deception
  • Neutral Killing
  • Neutral Evil
Consort dies, investigator is now confirmed due to a lack of random mafia. Change deception to RM. Change TS to RT. Everything else is fine.
Mayor Changes:
-Can now be healed by Doctors (buffed so it can be part of Town Power)
This is super strong. Doc heals mayor until late game so mayor destroys evils with its votes. Absolutely not.
Retributionist Changes
-Self-revives if killed without reviving anybody (buffed so it can be part of Town Power) Just revive whoever died on the first night.
Vampire and Vampire Hunter Changes:
-See here: http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/vi ... 6#p1011786
Nah. They’re fine as is; let the devs tweak the base around and work on other changes.
Gamemode Changes:
-New gamemode "Chaotic Custom", which is an exact copy of Custom but in the Chaos section and will host all of the crazy games
[b]Or just keep it in the custom category. Chaotic Custom. Seems simple enough to me.
[/quote]
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby BirdyThePhoenix » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:17 am

I still think that the town killing roles should have death notes.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:49 am

BirdyThePhoenix wrote:I still think that the town killing roles should have death notes.

Can you provide an argument for your stance?

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kmenx » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:26 pm

Exe dying with their target isn t a good buff it only nerfs scums vote
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:43 pm

Kmenx wrote:Exe dying with their target isn t a good buff it only nerfs scums vote

It's not a buff. It's to prevent kingmaker scenarios.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:49 pm

There's always going to be kingmaker scenarios. Kingmakers usually promote good play anyway.

You could be 1 town vs 1 gf vs 1 sk and the town member is the kingmaker. Can't really prevent that.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:02 pm

But allowing Neutrals to be the force behind kingmakers is not how a Mafia-type game should go. Town vs Mafia should be the core aspect of the game, ESPECIALLY in a Ranked Mode.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Nellyfox » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:03 pm

Then get rid of the neutrals. It's everyone else's fault for not getting rid of them.
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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby VoidRuler » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:06 pm

The only things I'm picky about are I think Jester should remain Neutral Evil; plus I think Town death notes should remain a thing.

Otherwise, great job and I pretty much agree with everything else.

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Re: Town of Salem 1.5

Postby Kmenx » Mon Dec 14, 2015 1:18 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Kmenx wrote:Exe dying with their target isn t a good buff it only nerfs scums vote

It's not a buff. It's to prevent kingmaker scenarios.



Make exe non immune after target gets lynched maybe ?

And Jester must be NE it is a minor bastard role
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