Do people not understand NE win conditions?

[KJYKJY1985]

I was in a game just now where I was a framer and at one point the game was 3v3v1 with the odd one being NE. The previous night, my fellow mafia said that NE was a witch and even which player it was. I wasn't entirely sure but I knew if NE was a witch or possibly and exe, we had the numbers to lynch the jailor, so I kept saying things like "Who's NE?" "NE come out now." etc. They were completely silent while the town tried to get the GF on the stand, but didn't have enough votes. That night, I said NE must be a jester or they would've said something, the GF was exed by the jailor and the mafioso died to a veteran. I was the only unconfirmed person (I guess, besides the witch?) and was promptly voted up. On the stand, I said "If NE really is a witch, I'm gonna be pissed!" Several townies asked "Hey witch, what did you do?" or something to that affect and the suspected witch claimed they were an investigator as I was being lynched. This isn't the first time this has happened to me either. I've had this happen to me a bunch of times with both witches and exes. I really think there are a lot of people out there who think NE's win with the town no matter what. Maybe there needs to be big glowing text in the middle of the screen for NE roles saying

YOU DO NOT WIN WITH TOWN. YOU DO NOT WIN BY SURVIVING UNTIL THE END OF THE OF THE GAME. PLEASE READ YOUR VICTORY CONDITIONS.

[itslitatthenightsh0w]

So basically what I'm reading is you choked the game and then blamed another player. Classic.

[KJYKJY1985]

I don't think you understood what I said at all. Care to elaborate?

[spelerthomas]

I can understand for witch. The witch in your situation did really bad. But exe's don't really have to work with maf. They just need to lynch their target. In cases where exe 'found maf', mafia should help to vote up the accused person. But other than that, exe's dont have any reason to work together with maf.

In your situation, it could be that witch wasn't sure who was maf and who wasn't. In a 3v3v1 case, town might as well try to trick witch into helping them. But I wasn't there, so I don't know.

[KJYKJY1985]

But exe's don't really have to work with maf.

Not always, but there are definite times where it would've been in the exe's interest to side with mafia. I was a consort in a 3v3v1 situation where that "1" was an exe and their target was still alive. I was brought up on the stand and admitted to being mafia fully expecting the exe to inno and for us to vote up the exe's target instead. The exe decided to side with town against his own self interest and we lost as a result. It's possible the exe was lying about his target and simply made the arbitrary decision to side with town, but this happens often enough with NE's that I think that's unlikely.
I can think of at least two other times this has happened with a witch. One time, the witch was lucky enough to win with NK after killing two mafia members. You might think "What's the difference?" but there was no guarantee that the witch would've won with NK whereas if they'd sided with us, their victory would've been guaranteed. Another time I was playing as town and the witch actively helped us find a mafia member and lynch them. After the town's victory was assured, the witch actually said "Oh crap! I read my victory conditions wrong!"
I've also watched a series of youtube videos with a group of friends who are really bad at this game, and even after dozens of matches at least, some of them still thought that jester and exe won by surviving until the end of the game.
In some cases I can't get too angry, because it wouldn't have affected our strategy that much, but it would be nice to be able to expect the NE to act in their rational self interest.

[spelerthomas]

But exe's don't really have to work with maf.

Not always, but there are definite times where it would've been in the exe's interest to side with mafia. I was a consort in a 3v3v1 situation where that "1" was an exe and their target was still alive. I was brought up on the stand and admitted to being mafia fully expecting the exe to inno and for us to vote up the exe's target instead. The exe decided to side with town against his own self interest and we lost as a result. It's possible the exe was lying about his target and simply made the arbitrary decision to side with town, but this happens often enough with NE's that I think that's unlikely.

But there is nothing wrong with this play. Could be that exe want to be seen as town to get their targets lynched easier. Or just get jailor suspicion off his back. That's actually a decent strategy and much better play than siding with maf when person thats on the trial is already very suspicious. Maf might just decide not to help exe too, so he has no guarantee at all if he inno's maf.

I can think of at least two other times this has happened with a witch. One time, the witch was lucky enough to win with NK after killing two mafia members. You might think "What's the difference?" but there was no guarantee that the witch would've won with NK whereas if they'd sided with us, their victory would've been guaranteed. Another time I was playing as town and the witch actively helped us find a mafia member and lynch them. After the town's victory was assured, the witch actually said "Oh crap! I read my victory conditions wrong!"
I've also watched a series of youtube videos with a group of friends who are really bad at this game, and even after dozens of matches at least, some of them still thought that jester and exe won by surviving until the end of the game.
In some cases I can't get too angry, because it wouldn't have affected our strategy that much, but it would be nice to be able to expect the NE to act in their rational self interest.

The situation is not the same with witch or bad players. Witches should always try to side with maf or nk. The other examples are indeed just bad players. You won't find it in decent elo ranking. Although in your first example, maybe you forgot that witch might not know yet who's maf and don't know who to follow. But I wasn't there, so I don't know. But I find jailor the worst problem of witches. So trying to look as a townie can help. When evils are close to majority, things change quickly. In such a situation, I like to say out loud 'I'm going to vote *confirmed townie*' to let everyone know I'm witch.

[KJYKJY1985]

But there is nothing wrong with this play. Could be that exe want to be seen as town to get their targets lynched easier. Or just get jailor suspicion off his back. That's actually a decent strategy and much better play than siding with maf when person thats on the trial is already very suspicious. Maf might just decide not to help exe too, so he has no guarantee at all if he inno's maf.

I'd hate to jump down your throat over this, but people not thinking through the numbers is a real pet peeve of mine. In a 3v3v1 situation, mafia + exe = majority. There's no reason for the exe to assume the mafia won't cooperate and no reason not to try and lynch your target right then and there. Lynching a mafia would just make the situation 3v2v1, which would make the lynch impossible and doubly so if the jailor kills a mafia that night. If mafia manages to kill that night, there's a 1/3 chance of them killing the exes target. If all of the mafia survive the night and manage to kill a townie other than the exe's target, the situation is 2v2v1, which is almost the exact same situation. Besides, the exe had already outed themself by that point, hence how I knew.
It's happened to me far too often that my fellow evils don't pay attention to the numbers and think not lynching or even not killing that night in order to fool the town for just one more day is their best bet when they could've just secured majority and won. The town already has so much info at that point they're going to figure it out and just killing them would've won the game.
It's also happened to me in the other direction when my fellow evils don't see that the town has a clear majority. There was one time I'd been claiming sheriff as coven and it was 5v3. A townie demanded to know the role of one of my fellow coven members and they had no response. I chimed in demanding a claim from them and was one of the first to vote them up. On the stand, they outed me to the town and accused me of gamethrowing, apparently not realizing the town didn't even need my vote.

[kyuss420]

1- a lot of people cant count to 4
2- a lot of people havent played enough to know what a maf role would do in a certain situation and hence cant tell mafia from town in a 3v3v1
3- a lot of people side with town, because.... idk, they like being town? Town are ''the good guys''? the ''I cant win solo, so I'll help town'' mentality
4- by day 4, most people cant remember a day 2 claim
5- ''town dont claim early, so an early claim must be maf, or evil'' ''only maf would want to vfr'' ''this is random! sheriff said hes suspicious, but we need proof''
6- people dont understand basic town mechanics, let alone NE win conditions (just play Dracs Palace for an hour and youll see that)
7- a lot of people dont understand how to use the town role theyve played as for 50 games now, let alone the evil role theyve rolled 6 times (oh theres 1 sheriff on the list, he claimed sheriff, no one counter claimed it, but i better check him to make sure)

[Kombinator1991]

Sadly i saw witch throwing into town. With it we were majority, but voted with town to "keep the face". No need to pretend once we are majority, and TK dead. In fact one of the best strategy as witch, if jailor got no exes, and no vig. in game, then reveal as soon as evil combined are majority. That's 6 players from the 15 so happens quite early. Another time maf. killed me when we had majority. AFTER i revealed myself as witch.

[Kombinator1991]

NE wins with evils but NE needs to put the Mafia in a position where they are forced to work with them or lose. Mafia can easily backstab the witch after parity

They can, but shouldn't. They win with it. The witch is probably the best for mafia, because they always win together, if the witch survives. Exe, and jest doesn't auto win with maf, and voting with exe could be suspicious, if the situation is not good enough. Jester is even worse, because hanging it would cause the death of a maf. member.

[Flavorable]

-> Moved topic to Town of Salem Discussions as this is not really a strategic discussion.

[lalasex]

if it WAS exe then it his choice to chose who win with and so blame him for that is really being a pathetic dick

if it WAS witch then yeah she did dumb play and deserved to be harassed at this point

[KJYKJY1985]

if it WAS exe then it his choice to chose who win with and so blame him for that is really being a pathetic dick

You must have exe confused with survivor. Exe's goal is to lynch a member of the town, which they need the mafia's help with in a 3v3v1 situation. I have actually lost at least one match that I can think of because the exe wanted to vote with the town for some reason in a 3v3v1 situation rather than vote up his target. In making the mafia lose, he ended up losing the game himself in the process. This thread isn't about the mafia being "owed" anything by the NE. It's about wanting to expect NE to act in their rational self interest.

[Chemist1422]

if it WAS exe then it his choice to chose who win with and so blame him for that is really being a pathetic dick

You must have exe confused with survivor. Exe's goal is to lynch a member of the town, which they need the mafia's help with in a 3v3v1 situation. I have actually lost at least one match that I can think of because the exe wanted to vote with the town for some reason in a 3v3v1 situation rather than vote up his target. In making the mafia lose, he ended up losing the game himself in the process. This thread isn't about the mafia being "owed" anything by the NE. It's about wanting to expect NE to act in their rational self interest.

If the exe's already won they can choose who to win with

[Tharok]

You see this a lot with Witches more so than Exes. Exes actually do have a chance at winning with town, but it depends on if they can argue their case well enough and if it would actually be advantageous.

Witches, on the other hand, are perplexing. Since they were gifted the ability to know exact roles they have sort of abused that power by revealing key pieces of information in an attempt to "aid the town". Some of the knowing full well it will cost them the game, others probably not. Unfortunately, though, even when this is brought to these players' attention it does not really seem to affect much. So, I am not sure if your solution would make much of a difference.