What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Apr 25, 2022 8:04 pm

marcelaaa wrote:I miss how it used to be. I miss the mafia chat at night for spy. I miss the "stay home and clean yourself" option for arso. The game can still be fun, it's just not how it used to be. :/


Spy mafia chat was horrible

Arso can still clean themselves by staying home
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby blackaxe3 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 10:47 pm

marcelaaa wrote:I miss the "stay home and clean yourself" option for arso. :/


This is still part of the game.
My Name Picks:

Royal Match - my default pick
Melon King - when someone named themselves Pumpkin King
Godfather - for role theme or to just bait people
Cottan Mother - to cause confusion
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon May 02, 2022 8:14 pm

This game has a lot of potential and it can be quite addicting but besides having a horrible community, what holds this game back is how poorly balanced it is. So much so that people will leave when they get certain roles like mafia, witch, Serial killer, arsonist, werewolf or executioner because town is just insanely overpowered, even with all the debuffs from over the years and town being the only faction that doesn't know who their buddies are right out the gate. Frankly, the amount of skill needed versus what is needed to be town and win which is almost none is like a chasm and it makes it hard to have a proper game.

The game may need a huge overhaul in order to reach new heights.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Tue May 03, 2022 7:25 am

Games would be more fun is mafia could make some plays without worrying about being executed immediately, but I don't think they are UP. Exes don't seem UP to me either. Wasn't the main current complaint that games were decided too early, rather than winrates?
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue May 03, 2022 2:25 pm

Not sure how the mafia isn't underpowered when the town has the sheriff, jailor, retributionist, medium, veteran and the mayor. Those are major reasons why games are decided early. As for executioner, it literally can't do anything but chat in day chat and hope to maybe deceive town. At least other evil roles have an actual ability.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Tue May 03, 2022 5:39 pm

I'd say sheriffs are actually UP, although it's odd you didn't mention transporters, who are OP. Retris aren't that strong since they were nerfed long time ago.

Executioners might have no ability, but that doesn't mean they are UP because their goal is still easy unless they are unlucky with their target. I don't see a problem with the point of a role being actually trying to deceive people in a social deduction game.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue May 03, 2022 9:55 pm

I forgot about transporter but it's a 50-50 thing since it's a very chaotic role and ends up hurting town just as often as it helps it.

That aside, why are sheriffs underpowered when they can identify all mafia members, the serial killer, the werewolf, the coven and the juggernaut.

Also, how are retris underpowered? They can use almost every town role so if the town is struggling and have people in the grave, they can be great for helping the town bounce back. Though yes, it is less OP than it used to be.

As for executioner, it is not an easy role, I don't understand why people think it is. 99% of my own executioner games and those I've seen with others as exe ended with the executioner being hung, killed by werewolf, set on fire by the executioner, executed by the jailor or alive at the end of the game having never hung their target. It is incredible easy to identify an executioner, particularly considering the best thing to claim is sheriff but there is no way to fake it properly like consigliere or witch can. It's a hard role when the town wants to kill all executioners 99% of the time.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Wed May 04, 2022 11:00 am

Transporters can be terrible for town if they are incompetent, but that doesn't mean they aren't OP. That's like saying jailors aren't OP because they often hurt the town. A good transporter is literally unkillable, and it can almost self-confirm.

About sheriffs, they can't indentify all mafia members. GF and sometimes mafiosos have detection immunity, and that's already at least half the mafia. If there is a disguiser, the sheriff becomes almost useless. Even if they find someone suspicious, that person might be hexed or framed. But most importantly, the sheriff's goal isn't to find the mafia. It's to make sure the town is the last faction standing. And that can be troubling where most evils have detection immunity, even without considering false positives. In ranked, at least half the evils are immune to the sheriff. And on top of that, sheriff is one of the easiest roles to fake, so no one trusts them anyway. They are way less useful than any other TI, especially trackers who always seemed like upgraded sheriffs to me.

I didn't say retris were UP, I said they weren't that strong. They are still pretty situational and have to rely on other roles being dead in order to do something. It's also very easy to fake retri. They can make comebacks once in a while, but that's not OP.

Executioner is an easy role. Just VFR your target and cc them, or claim invest and contradict them after they claim. You can also wait until they make a wrong vote to push on them, accuse them of being an ambusher or just help evils so they can help you lynch him when they get majority. You can even side with town and get a free win (don't, though). I've seen it happen. From what you said I assume you play all any, which I don't play. Maybe towns are very passive there, which makes roles like exe or jester harder, but we can't use all any to claim a role is unbalanced. All any has nothing to do with balance.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed May 04, 2022 11:51 am

That aside, why are sheriffs underpowered when they can identify all mafia members, the serial killer, the werewolf, the coven and the juggernaut.


In rank sheriff can only find 2.5 roles, finding someone as inno proves almost nothing and there is still a small degree on doubt on sus results

Not to mention jugg is inno to sheriff and there is a big amount of roles that yave a totally undeserved detection immunity

Retri is a flawed role, heavily reliant on RNG, that being said is not even near overpowered

I also dont see in what world vet is overpowered and exe is underpowered
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed May 04, 2022 12:59 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Transporters can be terrible for town if they are incompetent, but that doesn't mean they aren't OP. That's like saying jailors aren't OP because they often hurt the town. A good transporter is literally unkillable, and it can almost self-confirm.

About sheriffs, they can't indentify all mafia members. GF and sometimes mafiosos have detection immunity, and that's already at least half the mafia. If there is a disguiser, the sheriff becomes almost useless. Even if they find someone suspicious, that person might be hexed or framed. But most importantly, the sheriff's goal isn't to find the mafia. It's to make sure the town is the last faction standing. And that can be troubling where most evils have detection immunity, even without considering false positives. In ranked, at least half the evils are immune to the sheriff. And on top of that, sheriff is one of the easiest roles to fake, so no one trusts them anyway. They are way less useful than any other TI, especially trackers who always seemed like upgraded sheriffs to me.

I didn't say retris were UP, I said they weren't that strong. They are still pretty situational and have to rely on other roles being dead in order to do something. It's also very easy to fake retri. They can make comebacks once in a while, but that's not OP.

Executioner is an easy role. Just VFR your target and cc them, or claim invest and contradict them after they claim. You can also wait until they make a wrong vote to push on them, accuse them of being an ambusher or just help evils so they can help you lynch him when they get majority. You can even side with town and get a free win (don't, though). I've seen it happen. From what you said I assume you play all any, which I don't play. Maybe towns are very passive there, which makes roles like exe or jester harder, but we can't use all any to claim a role is unbalanced. All any has nothing to do with balance.


You don't have to be an incompetent transporter to hurt town, all you need is to not have perfect judgement which Humans are known for or to get tricked which can happen and then town suffers. It isn't as overpowered as you think.

And I DIDN'T say they can identify all mafia members, I said they can identify mafia members. Literally every role except godfather can be found by them which means three out of the four roles are at major risk. Disguiser really doesn't help that much considering there needs to be almost perfect conditions for it to helpful i.e the target isn't jailed, the disguiser isn't roleblocked and neither the godfather nor the other person is transported. It is also an easy role to out since their best claim is doctor but if there is a known jailor or some other known good role that asked for tp and lookout is on it because their competent, then the disguiser is immediately outed since they can't visit the jailor.

As for framer, it's not really a good role, not only does it not really have any claim space but considering the spy exists and is extremely common, it becomes a pretty common occurrence that whoever gets framed will be labeled as not mafia by the town.

And no, sheriff isn't an easy role to fake, not when the town has plenty of ways to identify whether the sheriff is telling the truth or not and if they are, then they are confirmed and if not, they are probably not sheriff and get shot, hung or executed immediately.

That's easier said than done actually. Very often a target will be found as inno before I even have a chance to make a move for various reasons. And even if I do get them up and CC them, there isn't a guarantee that they will be hung, a player with a good enough will and argument for why they are town will win out over a flimsy cc or invest claim. And helping evils to get the win is hard when one, you often don't know who they are before they die and they fairly often want you to die too because you're not part of their faction. I've been playing this game for years on and off, doing ranked, ranked practice, classic, all any and various modes as well as a few rounds of coven. Games are NEVER as easy for neutral roles as these forums want you to believe.

ALSO, all any has SOME balancing so to say it has nothing to do with balancing makes no sense as it couldn't function without any balancing.

And to address another person, vet is able to not only protect themselves at night from being attacked like a bodyguard's vest or a doctor's self heal but also take out multiple people that visit them which, with a competent town will usually be evils who don't know they are vet.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed May 04, 2022 2:53 pm

And to address another person, vet is able to not only protect themselves at night from being attacked like a bodyguard's vest or a doctor's self heal but also take out multiple people that visit them which, with a competent town will usually be evils who don't know they are vet.


And at the same time they can kill the entire town and mafia can scumread who is vet
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Wed May 04, 2022 4:27 pm

Spoiler:
Boredfan1 wrote:You don't have to be an incompetent transporter to hurt town, all you need is to not have perfect judgement which Humans are known for or to get tricked which can happen and then town suffers. It isn't as overpowered as you think.

The same can be said for jailors, and everyone can agree that role is OP. As I said, a transporter can swap himself with an evil player every night and become unkillable. It's also very hard and risky to fakeclaim.

Boredfan1 wrote:And I DIDN'T say they can identify all mafia members, I said they can identify mafia members.

Boredfan1 wrote:That aside, why are sheriffs underpowered when they can identify all mafia members


Boredfan1 wrote:Literally every role except godfather can be found by them

-Juggernaut.
-Necronomicon holders (6 roles).
-Arsonists.
-Werewolf on nights 1 and 3.
-Vampires.
-Witches.
-Plaguebearer.
-Executioner.
-Jester.
-Pirate.
-Anyone disguised as a town member.
-Promoted mafioso.

Boredfan1 wrote:Disguiser really doesn't help that much considering there needs to be almost perfect conditions for it to helpful i.e the target isn't jailed, the disguiser isn't roleblocked and neither the godfather nor the other person is transported.

Perfect conditions? The things you mentioned are very common. That's like saying a tracker isn't much help because it relies on not being rb'ed and their target not being swapped. GFs have nothing to do with disguisers, who can disguise anyone as any town member to give them detection immunity.

Boredfan1 wrote:It is also an easy role to out since their best claim is doctor but if there is a known jailor or some other known good role that asked for tp and lookout is on it because their competent, then the disguiser is immediately outed since they can't visit the jailor.

Are you one of those people who only claim within their investigative results? That's not very smart, especially for a role that can change its results and have detection immunity. Btw, a disguiser can visit the jailor by disguising a mafia member as them.

Boredfan1 wrote:As for framer, it's not really a good role, not only does it not really have any claim space but considering the spy exists and is extremely common, it becomes a pretty common occurrence that whoever gets framed will be labeled as not mafia by the town.

That is, if the town ever knows that person was framed. With witches and transporters, one can't never be too sure. But I agree framers are bad due to being weak hardcounters that are useless if certain roles aren't in the game, and due to being hardcountered by a spy spawning. As for claimspace, all evils have the same claimspace. That's the rolelist. You don't have to claim within your invest results. If you aren't suspicious, you won't be investigated unless you get unlucky on night 1. And framers can always claim framed, or just accuse the accuser of lying like in any other social deduction game.

Boredfan wrote:And no, sheriff isn't an easy role to fake, not when the town has plenty of ways to identify whether the sheriff is telling the truth or not and if they are, then they are confirmed and if not, they are probably not sheriff and get shot, hung or executed immediately.

Sheriff is extremely easy to fake. Gaining town's trust is a different matter, but you won't get insta killed for claiming sheriff. Getting correct results is very easy if you are mafia because you know who has detection immunity and who doesn't. When the time is right, you can just lie to get a game-winning mislynch/misexecution.

Boredfan1 wrote:That's easier said than done actually. Very often a target will be found as inno before I even have a chance to make a move for various reasons. And even if I do get them up and CC them, there isn't a guarantee that they will be hung, a player with a good enough will and argument for why they are town will win out over a flimsy cc or invest claim. And helping evils to get the win is hard when one, you often don't know who they are before they die and they fairly often want you to die too because you're not part of their faction. I've been playing this game for years on and off, doing ranked, ranked practice, classic, all any and various modes as well as a few rounds of coven. Games are NEVER as easy for neutral roles as these forums want you to believe.


I swear I'm not trying to be hostile, but I think instead of blaming the game you should try to improve your skills. That's what I get from your post. Executioner isn't that hard, I like to register my stats and out of the 32 RP games I have played this season that featured a full exe, the exe won 37.5% of them. Out of the 12 games where the exe turned into a jester, he won 43,75% of them.

As for your complaints, if your target is found as inno too early it usually means you were too slow. Of course there isn't a guarantee you will lynch them by ccing them. If there was, the game wouldn't be fun. This is where the social element can come into play. Usually the town will follow the 1 for 1 without caring much about the exe. You can find evils by scumreading and vote against people you think are town when evils are about to win, so you can claim exe later. At least in ranked, mafia has no reason to kill the exe, in fact they can't kill him even if they want to. I've been playing this game for pretty much the same time as you, btw. I also know what I'm talking about.

Boredfan1 wrote:ALSO, all any has SOME balancing so to say it has nothing to do with balancing makes no sense as it couldn't function without any balancing.

All any isn't intended to be balanced, so using it to complain about balance makes no sense. Just because winrates may even out over time due to a different faction getting an unfair advantage or disadvantage over the others in every game doesn't mean all any has anything to do with balance.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed May 04, 2022 7:40 pm

Joacgroso wrote: Spoiler:
Boredfan1 wrote:You don't have to be an incompetent transporter to hurt town, all you need is to not have perfect judgement which Humans are known for or to get tricked which can happen and then town suffers. It isn't as overpowered as you think.

The same can be said for jailors, and everyone can agree that role is OP. As I said, a transporter can swap himself with an evil player every night and become unkillable. It's also very hard and risky to fakeclaim.

Boredfan1 wrote:And I DIDN'T say they can identify all mafia members, I said they can identify mafia members.

Boredfan1 wrote:That aside, why are sheriffs underpowered when they can identify all mafia members


Boredfan1 wrote:Literally every role except godfather can be found by them

-Juggernaut.
-Necronomicon holders (6 roles).
-Arsonists.
-Werewolf on nights 1 and 3.
-Vampires.
-Witches.
-Plaguebearer.
-Executioner.
-Jester.
-Pirate.
-Anyone disguised as a town member.
-Promoted mafioso.

Boredfan1 wrote:Disguiser really doesn't help that much considering there needs to be almost perfect conditions for it to helpful i.e the target isn't jailed, the disguiser isn't roleblocked and neither the godfather nor the other person is transported.

Perfect conditions? The things you mentioned are very common. That's like saying a tracker isn't much help because it relies on not being rb'ed and their target not being swapped. GFs have nothing to do with disguisers, who can disguise anyone as any town member to give them detection immunity.

Boredfan1 wrote:It is also an easy role to out since their best claim is doctor but if there is a known jailor or some other known good role that asked for tp and lookout is on it because their competent, then the disguiser is immediately outed since they can't visit the jailor.

Are you one of those people who only claim within their investigative results? That's not very smart, especially for a role that can change its results and have detection immunity. Btw, a disguiser can visit the jailor by disguising a mafia member as them.

Boredfan1 wrote:As for framer, it's not really a good role, not only does it not really have any claim space but considering the spy exists and is extremely common, it becomes a pretty common occurrence that whoever gets framed will be labeled as not mafia by the town.

That is, if the town ever knows that person was framed. With witches and transporters, one can't never be too sure. But I agree framers are bad due to being weak hardcounters that are useless if certain roles aren't in the game, and due to being hardcountered by a spy spawning. As for claimspace, all evils have the same claimspace. That's the rolelist. You don't have to claim within your invest results. If you aren't suspicious, you won't be investigated unless you get unlucky on night 1. And framers can always claim framed, or just accuse the accuser of lying like in any other social deduction game.

Boredfan wrote:And no, sheriff isn't an easy role to fake, not when the town has plenty of ways to identify whether the sheriff is telling the truth or not and if they are, then they are confirmed and if not, they are probably not sheriff and get shot, hung or executed immediately.

Sheriff is extremely easy to fake. Gaining town's trust is a different matter, but you won't get insta killed for claiming sheriff. Getting correct results is very easy if you are mafia because you know who has detection immunity and who doesn't. When the time is right, you can just lie to get a game-winning mislynch/misexecution.

Boredfan1 wrote:That's easier said than done actually. Very often a target will be found as inno before I even have a chance to make a move for various reasons. And even if I do get them up and CC them, there isn't a guarantee that they will be hung, a player with a good enough will and argument for why they are town will win out over a flimsy cc or invest claim. And helping evils to get the win is hard when one, you often don't know who they are before they die and they fairly often want you to die too because you're not part of their faction. I've been playing this game for years on and off, doing ranked, ranked practice, classic, all any and various modes as well as a few rounds of coven. Games are NEVER as easy for neutral roles as these forums want you to believe.


I swear I'm not trying to be hostile, but I think instead of blaming the game you should try to improve your skills. That's what I get from your post. Executioner isn't that hard, I like to register my stats and out of the 32 RP games I have played this season that featured a full exe, the exe won 37.5% of them. Out of the 12 games where the exe turned into a jester, he won 43,75% of them.

As for your complaints, if your target is found as inno too early it usually means you were too slow. Of course there isn't a guarantee you will lynch them by ccing them. If there was, the game wouldn't be fun. This is where the social element can come into play. Usually the town will follow the 1 for 1 without caring much about the exe. You can find evils by scumreading and vote against people you think are town when evils are about to win, so you can claim exe later. At least in ranked, mafia has no reason to kill the exe, in fact they can't kill him even if they want to. I've been playing this game for pretty much the same time as you, btw. I also know what I'm talking about.

Boredfan1 wrote:ALSO, all any has SOME balancing so to say it has nothing to do with balancing makes no sense as it couldn't function without any balancing.

All any isn't intended to be balanced, so using it to complain about balance makes no sense. Just because winrates may even out over time due to a different faction getting an unfair advantage or disadvantage over the others in every game doesn't mean all any has anything to do with balance.



Joacgroso wrote:The same can be said for jailors, and everyone can agree that role is OP. As I said, a transporter can swap himself with an evil player every night and become unkillable. It's also very hard and risky to fakeclaim.


Except, no other role can not only role block but kill on the same night AND can usually be pretty easily confirmed unless you got a bunch of people claiming jailor thus, they are protected at night in most cases.

Joacgroso wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Literally every role except godfather can be found by them

-Juggernaut.
-Necronomicon holders (6 roles).
-Arsonists.
-Werewolf on nights 1 and 3.
-Vampires.
-Witches.
-Plaguebearer.
-Executioner.
-Jester.
-Pirate.
-Anyone disguised as a town member.
-Promoted mafioso.


You literally ignored the context I provided...And a promoted mafioso is a godfather, it doesn't make sense to include here as that would fall under godfather.


Joacgroso wrote:Perfect conditions? The things you mentioned are very common. That's like saying a tracker isn't much help because it relies on not being rb'ed and their target not being swapped. GFs have nothing to do with disguisers, who can disguise anyone as any town member to give them detection immunity.


It's very common for disguisers to not have those conditions....

Joacgroso wrote:Are you one of those people who only claim within their investigative results? That's not very smart, especially for a role that can change its results and have detection immunity. Btw, a disguiser can visit the jailor by disguising a mafia member as them.

Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: Boredfan, role.
Me: Medium.
Inv: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!

Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: N1: Boredfan - INV, Consig/Mayor
Me: That's a lie, I'm medium.
Invest: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!


Joacgroso wrote:As for claimspace, all evils have the same claimspace.

The Vampires would like a word with you.
The Serial Killer would like a word with you.
The Arsonist would like a word with you.
The Werewolf would like a word with you.

Joacgroso wrote:Sheriff is extremely easy to fake. Gaining town's trust is a different matter, but you won't get insta killed for claiming sheriff. Getting correct results is very easy if you are mafia because you know who has detection immunity and who doesn't. When the time is right, you can just lie to get a game-winning mislynch/misexecution.


Not from my experience.


Joacgroso wrote:I swear I'm not trying to be hostile, but I think instead of blaming the game you should try to improve your skills. That's what I get from your post. Executioner isn't that hard, I like to register my stats and out of the 32 RP games I have played this season that featured a full exe, the exe won 37.5% of them. Out of the 12 games where the exe turned into a jester, he won 43,75% of them.

As for your complaints, if your target is found as inno too early it usually means you were too slow. Of course there isn't a guarantee you will lynch them by ccing them. If there was, the game wouldn't be fun. This is where the social element can come into play. Usually the town will follow the 1 for 1 without caring much about the exe. You can find evils by scumreading and vote against people you think are town when evils are about to win, so you can claim exe later. At least in ranked, mafia has no reason to kill the exe, in fact they can't kill him even if they want to. I've been playing this game for pretty much the same time as you, btw. I also know what I'm talking about.


You are literally just saying "git gud" and basically saying it's a flawless role. Like seriously, what? I've had my target on day two, day three even be found as town before I can say anything at all. What the hell am I supposed to do in that case? You claim that someone is sus on d2, you get outed as executioner. You wait to CC them but town either finds them inno before you can, they die before you can or they have a good will that convinces the town you're lying so you get lynched instead. You say they are mafioso, town doesn't believe you and you get killed. You say the person is ambusher but the ambusher was on the jailor and you weren't, you're not LO and you're dead.

I've tried several strategies but none of them consistently win. So please don't talk like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong.


Joacgroso wrote:All any isn't intended to be balanced, so using it to complain about balance makes no sense. Just because winrates may even out over time due to a different faction getting an unfair advantage or disadvantage over the others in every game doesn't mean all any has anything to do with balance.


Dude, that isn't how game design works. A game mode has to be balanced to some degree, there can't be no balance whatsoever like you seem to think because that isn't fun, that isn't fair, it needs to be both. It has its own balance separate from other modes but balance exists. There is no ifs or butts about it. It isn't perfect but it exists.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Wed May 04, 2022 8:11 pm

Not from my experience.


Your experience goes against everyone else's experience
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu May 05, 2022 11:59 am

Other people have similar experiences to my own. If your experience is valid, mine is valid. If my experience is invalid, yours is invalid. No exceptions, no ifs, no butts.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Thu May 05, 2022 12:29 pm

Spoiler:
Boredfan1 wrote:Except, no other role can not only role block but kill on the same night AND can usually be pretty easily confirmed unless you got a bunch of people claiming jailor thus, they are protected at night in most cases.

Jailors are definitely more overpowered than transporters, but transporters are still overpowered. Just for the fun of it, I'll add that CL can also practically rb and kill in the same night, and that transporters don't need anyone to be unkillable, unlike jailors who can't protect themselves.
Boredfan1 wrote:You literally ignored the context I provided...And a promoted mafioso is a godfather, it doesn't make sense to include here as that would fall under godfather.

I don't know what kind of context can change the fact that sheriffs are UP. They fail to detect like half evils, while any other TI (except spies) can detect anyone. GF is a unique role, so counting mafiosos makes sense to show that it's actually 2 players in a game and not 1 who have detection immunity, without counting all the exceptions I already listed. Do you seriously believe sheriffs are on the same level as the other TIs?

Boredfan1 wrote:It's very common for disguisers to not have those conditions....

It's not. That conditions (except the gf one, which makes no sense) can apply to anyone, yet most people use their ability every night without problem.
Boredfan1 wrote:Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: Boredfan, role.
Me: Medium.
Inv: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!

Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: N1: Boredfan - INV, Consig/Mayor
Me: That's a lie, I'm medium.
Invest: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!

If you are investigated on night 1, tough luck. It's quite unlikely anyway. You can always claim within your investigative results if someone you suspect is an invest is questioning you, but that doesn't mean you always have to claim that. It only makes you predictable. TIs tend to check claimless people, so as long as you aren't suspicious you will be fine. I don't consider myself a very good player, yet I rarely claim within my results and I almost never die because of it. When I'm lynched as mafia, it's usually because of PoE.

Boredfan1 wrote:The Vampires would like a word with you.
The Serial Killer would like a word with you.
The Arsonist would like a word with you.
The Werewolf would like a word with you.

I don't know what you are talking about. "Claimspace" if a rolelist matter, not a role matter.
Boredfan1 wrote:Not from my experience.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Your experience goes against everyone else's experience

^Also this.

Boredfan1 wrote:You are literally just saying "git gud" and basically saying it's a flawless role. Like seriously, what? I've had my target on day two, day three even be found as town before I can say anything at all. What the hell am I supposed to do in that case? You claim that someone is sus on d2, you get outed as executioner. You wait to CC them but town either finds them inno before you can, they die before you can or they have a good will that convinces the town you're lying so you get lynched instead. You say they are mafioso, town doesn't believe you and you get killed. You say the person is ambusher but the ambusher was on the jailor and you weren't, you're not LO and you're dead.

I've tried several strategies but none of them consistently win. So please don't talk like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong.

I am indeed saying you should get good rather than blaming the game. But I don't think exe is a flawless role, I just don't think they are underpowered. If there was a strat that worked 100% of the time the role would be overpowered. At this point you are just shooting down all my ideas without giving them a chance, maybe because you just like to argue like me. But I don't think you should lose sight of what we are talking about. If doing the classic sheriff play doesn't work for you, try something else. The strategies I mentioned can work, picking which one to use is a matter of skill even though you may fail due to bad luck ocasionally.

It's also a bit contradictory how in your previous example you implied that if an invest calls you out on day 2 you will be automatically lynched, but now you're saying if you do the same as exe you will be automatically distrusted. Clearly both things can't be possible. It's impossible to tell an invest from an exe on day 2. Maybe you should try to use these things to your advantage? Accuse the invest of being exe while showing your nice last will, or just act like an invest who caught an evil in a lie when you are exe.

Also, what do you mean your target gets "proven good" too early? Aren't you giving up too easily? Maybe if you cc them they won't be trusted that easily. And if they are really confirmed, just try to survive and help evils so they vote with you. Will it always work? No, but I saw exes winning like that many times.
Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, that isn't how game design works. A game mode has to be balanced to some degree, there can't be no balance whatsoever like you seem to think because that isn't fun, that isn't fair, it needs to be both. It has its own balance separate from other modes but balance exists. There is no ifs or butts about it. It isn't perfect but it exists.

The fun of ally any comes from laughing at how unfair some lists are, from seeing some unlikely scenarios happen, or from having a lot of neutrals because ToS players love neutral roles. It doesn't come from having fair games. And that isn't bad. You say a gamemode has to be balanced, but that's not true. It only has to be fun. Balance was never the main concern for all any, so we shouldn't bring that gamemode up when discussing it.
Boredfan1 wrote:Other people have similar experiences to my own. If your experience is valid, mine is valid. If my experience is invalid, yours is invalid. No exceptions, no ifs, no butts.

Your experiences with failures don't prove winning often as exe is impossible, but our experiences prove it is possible.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Boredfan1 » Fri May 06, 2022 9:36 pm

Joacgroso wrote: Spoiler:
Boredfan1 wrote:Except, no other role can not only role block but kill on the same night AND can usually be pretty easily confirmed unless you got a bunch of people claiming jailor thus, they are protected at night in most cases.

Jailors are definitely more overpowered than transporters, but transporters are still overpowered. Just for the fun of it, I'll add that CL can also practically rb and kill in the same night, and that transporters don't need anyone to be unkillable, unlike jailors who can't protect themselves.
Boredfan1 wrote:You literally ignored the context I provided...And a promoted mafioso is a godfather, it doesn't make sense to include here as that would fall under godfather.

I don't know what kind of context can change the fact that sheriffs are UP. They fail to detect like half evils, while any other TI (except spies) can detect anyone. GF is a unique role, so counting mafiosos makes sense to show that it's actually 2 players in a game and not 1 who have detection immunity, without counting all the exceptions I already listed. Do you seriously believe sheriffs are on the same level as the other TIs?

Boredfan1 wrote:It's very common for disguisers to not have those conditions....

It's not. That conditions (except the gf one, which makes no sense) can apply to anyone, yet most people use their ability every night without problem.
Boredfan1 wrote:Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: Boredfan, role.
Me: Medium.
Inv: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!

Me: Okay, I'm mafioso. I'll claim med I guess.
Investigator: Let's invest Boredfan. Okay so they are vig, vet or mafioso.
The next day:
Investigator: N1: Boredfan - INV, Consig/Mayor
Me: That's a lie, I'm medium.
Invest: Ya, he's lying, hang him
Town: Okay
You have died!

If you are investigated on night 1, tough luck. It's quite unlikely anyway. You can always claim within your investigative results if someone you suspect is an invest is questioning you, but that doesn't mean you always have to claim that. It only makes you predictable. TIs tend to check claimless people, so as long as you aren't suspicious you will be fine. I don't consider myself a very good player, yet I rarely claim within my results and I almost never die because of it. When I'm lynched as mafia, it's usually because of PoE.

Boredfan1 wrote:The Vampires would like a word with you.
The Serial Killer would like a word with you.
The Arsonist would like a word with you.
The Werewolf would like a word with you.

I don't know what you are talking about. "Claimspace" if a rolelist matter, not a role matter.
Boredfan1 wrote:Not from my experience.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:Your experience goes against everyone else's experience

^Also this.

Boredfan1 wrote:You are literally just saying "git gud" and basically saying it's a flawless role. Like seriously, what? I've had my target on day two, day three even be found as town before I can say anything at all. What the hell am I supposed to do in that case? You claim that someone is sus on d2, you get outed as executioner. You wait to CC them but town either finds them inno before you can, they die before you can or they have a good will that convinces the town you're lying so you get lynched instead. You say they are mafioso, town doesn't believe you and you get killed. You say the person is ambusher but the ambusher was on the jailor and you weren't, you're not LO and you're dead.

I've tried several strategies but none of them consistently win. So please don't talk like you're 100% right and I'm 100% wrong.

I am indeed saying you should get good rather than blaming the game. But I don't think exe is a flawless role, I just don't think they are underpowered. If there was a strat that worked 100% of the time the role would be overpowered. At this point you are just shooting down all my ideas without giving them a chance, maybe because you just like to argue like me. But I don't think you should lose sight of what we are talking about. If doing the classic sheriff play doesn't work for you, try something else. The strategies I mentioned can work, picking which one to use is a matter of skill even though you may fail due to bad luck ocasionally.

It's also a bit contradictory how in your previous example you implied that if an invest calls you out on day 2 you will be automatically lynched, but now you're saying if you do the same as exe you will be automatically distrusted. Clearly both things can't be possible. It's impossible to tell an invest from an exe on day 2. Maybe you should try to use these things to your advantage? Accuse the invest of being exe while showing your nice last will, or just act like an invest who caught an evil in a lie when you are exe.

Also, what do you mean your target gets "proven good" too early? Aren't you giving up too easily? Maybe if you cc them they won't be trusted that easily. And if they are really confirmed, just try to survive and help evils so they vote with you. Will it always work? No, but I saw exes winning like that many times.
Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, that isn't how game design works. A game mode has to be balanced to some degree, there can't be no balance whatsoever like you seem to think because that isn't fun, that isn't fair, it needs to be both. It has its own balance separate from other modes but balance exists. There is no ifs or butts about it. It isn't perfect but it exists.

The fun of ally any comes from laughing at how unfair some lists are, from seeing some unlikely scenarios happen, or from having a lot of neutrals because ToS players love neutral roles. It doesn't come from having fair games. And that isn't bad. You say a gamemode has to be balanced, but that's not true. It only has to be fun. Balance was never the main concern for all any, so we shouldn't bring that gamemode up when discussing it.
Boredfan1 wrote:Other people have similar experiences to my own. If your experience is valid, mine is valid. If my experience is invalid, yours is invalid. No exceptions, no ifs, no butts.

Your experiences with failures don't prove winning often as exe is impossible, but our experiences prove it is possible.


1-I wasn't talking about all the evils, I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the mafia and I wasn't saying anything about the godfather when I said they could find mafia.

2-The fact that sheriffs can get an 100% confirmation on someone being evil makes them a very powerful TI. Investigator is definitely a weaker role and tracker can be just as weak. Lookout varies.

3-I've literally had tons of games were the diguiser got screwed because they didn't have the perfect conditions.

4-A smart TI will investigate someone regardless if they claimed or not to verify their claim. I've seen games be decided by a TI who does that.

5-There are literally roles that don't have proper claims to go to. Vampires, Serial Killers, Arsonists and Werewolves. Vampires are way too inconsistent. Serial Killers at best can claim surv but surv usually gets hung. Same with Werewolves and Arsonists since Arsonist claiming BG is suicide usually.

6-I am actually a good player, I've won more than a thousand games, it is just a really shitty role that requires luck more than actual skill to win with. This is proven by actually playing the role and seeing how it pans out. No strategy allows you to win even 50% of the time hell, not even 30% of the time because you're pretty powerless as the executioner. I've tried your strategies, I've tried my own, I still have barely won as the role. And no, it's not really a contradictory statement because both can and have happened. I've been called out as exe and either got ignored the rest of the game or got thrown out.

7-I've literally had targets who thanks to favorable circumstances have been proven town for whatever reason depending on their role, etc. They are proven town, if I CC and call them a liar, I get thrown out or executed.

8-8/10 times, the evil roles don't care for the executioner any more than the town does and will almost as often get them hung or be an ass and kill their target. And then as jester, you have to hope they don't take it one step further and attack you or reveal you as jester to the town so you don't get hung.

9-Yes, the fun comes from the random and often unfair lists HOWEVER, that doesn't measn that there is no balancing, it simple isn't as strong as in other modes. It is literally idiotic to have no balancing for a mode, even if it is based on RNG. If it has any sort of balance, then it can be fun.

10-I NEVER said it was 100% impossible to win, I have won as executioner but it's extremely rare because of how executioner and the role are designed.
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Re: What are everyone’s thoughts on the game

Postby Joacgroso » Sat May 07, 2022 9:27 am

Spoiler:
Boredfan1 wrote:1-I wasn't talking about all the evils, I was SPECIFICALLY talking about the mafia and I wasn't saying anything about the godfather when I said they could find mafia.

I don't know what you are responding to, so I don't know what you are talking about. In any case, you did say "all mafia" when you were talking about sheriffs.
Boredfan1 wrote:2-The fact that sheriffs can get an 100% confirmation on someone being evil makes them a very powerful TI. Investigator is definitely a weaker role and tracker can be just as weak. Lookout varies.

So you honestly believe that, huh? First of all, sheriffs getting an 100% confirmation on someone as evil is pretty rare due to framers and hex masters. You have to know what each RM/CE are first. Even if it was 100% confirmation, most important evils are immune to it, and disguisers can just negate your ability. I don't play all any so I'll ask you a honest question: do you think vampire hunters are OP there? They also get 100% confirmation on someone being evil and even kill them, but they are completely useless against everything else. They are grossly OP in DP (check my signature), but are they in a gamemode where vamp aren't the only threat? If not, you'll understand why sheriffs aren't OP either. Of course, all any shouldn't be brought up in balance discussions. I'm just trying to point out that a role that is very good against few roles is worse than a role that is good against all roles.

I'm surprised you think invests are worse than sheriffs when you said that the possibility of an invest forces you to claim within your investigative results even if they are unconfortable. A role with such an impact must be better than sheriffs. You also implied they can lynch anyone by pointing a finger at them, and on top of that they can prove themselves by posting correct results, which is something sheriffs can't do.

Trackers are just better sheriffs because they can't be fooled by roles (except maybe disguisers, I'll accept that). All it takes is asking someone for their will to see if they are lying. And if they visited the dead person, you don't even need to do that to know they are evil. And if you visit someone innocent, you can gain a lot of trust telling them who they visited.

Lookouts are definitely better because they are basically a TP that spawns as a TI and confirms people (both as good and as evil).
Boredfan1 wrote:3-I've literally had tons of games were the diguiser got screwed because they didn't have the perfect conditions.

The conditions you mentioned for disguisers apply to most roles. I had a ton of games where people were able to use their ability every night without problem.
Boredfan1 wrote:4-A smart TI will investigate someone regardless if they claimed or not to verify their claim. I've seen games be decided by a TI who does that.

Maybe, but in my experience it never happens. Again, I almost never lost to that. Regardless of the best plays, who do investigators check in your games? If it's always people who claim, don't claim. In my experience it's better to check for claimless people to distinguish the evil claimless people from the dumb claimless townies. Mafia almost always claims within their results anyway. But what I do is check the people I find suspicious whether they have claimed or not (being claimless makes you more suspicious in my eyes, though).
Boredfan1 wrote:5-There are literally roles that don't have proper claims to go to. Vampires, Serial Killers, Arsonists and Werewolves. Vampires are way too inconsistent. Serial Killers at best can claim surv but surv usually gets hung. Same with Werewolves and Arsonists since Arsonist claiming BG is suicide usually.

That's not claimspace, those are natural claims. Vampires can claim jester (subtly) or framed. They can also gain new members who were already confirmed. SKs can claim doctor, although they will probably get lynched because everyone knows doc claims in SK games are sk. I'll agree it's hard. Arsos can claim they are doused. At least bg is an easy role to fake, like doc. And wws have 2 very easy claims, if faking sheriff or exe is too hard for you then I think any claim will be.
Boredfan1 wrote:6-I am actually a good player, I've won more than a thousand games,

I think your pride is getting in the way of your growth as a player. Maybe you'll enjoy the game more if you reconsider, since you sound frustrated right now. ToS is a very luck-based game, so the amount of wins doesn't really matter. Playing a lot means you will win a lot.
Boredfan1 wrote:it is just a really shitty role that requires luck more than actual skill to win with. This is proven by actually playing the role and seeing how it pans out. No strategy allows you to win even 50% of the time hell, not even 30% of the time because you're pretty powerless as the executioner. I've tried your strategies, I've tried my own, I still have barely won as the role. And no, it's not really a contradictory statement because both can and have happened. I've been called out as exe and either got ignored the rest of the game or got thrown out.

I disagree for the reasons I already mentioned. Maybe you should work on your charisma then? idk, I win more often than not when I'm exe (without counting when I'm promoted), and I scroll for it. The only luck you need is that you aren't checked n1/attacked (like any evil) and that your target isn't a transporter or a confirmed vet.

The statements were contradictory because you said "I can't claim a role outside of my invest results because if I'm investigated I will die" and "I can't just accuse my target on day 2, no one will believe me" as if both things happened all the time. That's a fixed mentality. If they don't happen as often as you made it sound, then maybe you shouldn't fear them that much.
Boredfan1 wrote:7-I've literally had targets who thanks to favorable circumstances have been proven town for whatever reason depending on their role, etc. They are proven town, if I CC and call them a liar, I get thrown out or executed.

Should have acted earlier. Waiting is a risk. There aren't many targets that can be confirmed by day 2 (trans (not completely confirmable due to hypno, but very trustworthy), vet, vigi (who will die the next night), lookout (though if they post their will they will die soon, and they aren't 100% confirmed) and escort (though they aren't completely proven either)).
Boredfan1 wrote:8-8/10 times, the evil roles don't care for the executioner any more than the town does and will almost as often get them hung or be an ass and kill their target. And then as jester, you have to hope they don't take it one step further and attack you or reveal you as jester to the town so you don't get hung.

Do you have stats to back that up, or is it just made up? In my experience evils are glad to lynch town members, and the exe is an extra vote towards that goal. I never saw mafia outing a jester, though they sometimes kill the target. That's unlucky, the mafia was bad. But that isn't common in my games (except maybe killing the jester because they are dumb).
Boredfan1 wrote:9-Yes, the fun comes from the random and often unfair lists HOWEVER, that doesn't measn that there is no balancing, it simple isn't as strong as in other modes. It is literally idiotic to have no balancing for a mode, even if it is based on RNG. If it has any sort of balance, then it can be fun.

You're just saying the same thing over and over again while missing my point.

"All any isn't mean to be balanced and shouldn't be brought up in balance discussions."
"Every game needs a little balance to work (I won't give any examples of how all any is balanced, though)."
"Winrates evening out over time doesn't count, all any isn't meant to be balanced."
"If a game isn't balanced it won't work".
"All any is meant to be fun, not balanced."
"Yes, but if a game isn't balanced in some way it won't work".

Even if it has a semblance of balance by chance, that's still not the point of all any, at all.
Boredfan1 wrote:10-I NEVER said it was 100% impossible to win, I have won as executioner but it's extremely rare because of how executioner and the role are designed.

I never said you said it was 100% impossible to win, that's a strawman. I said you keep using your experience to claim winning often as exe is impossible (although your experience isn't enough to prove it), while our experience proves it is possible.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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