Can a vampire determine if you're gamethrowing? I think so.

[CoocooFroggy]

Let's say you are a vigilante and are in a situation with a revealed mayor and a vamp. The day just ended after successfully hanging an SK. You know with certainty who the vampire is, and they can convert someone tonight. What shot do you take as a vigilante, and what is considered gamethrowing?

Shot A) Shoot the vampire.
This seems like the obvious choice and what everyone would do. But it's not the best shot if you're looking to win.

Results:

1. You will be converted into a vampire and hung by mayor the next day. Town win, you lose
2. Mayor is converted into a vampire and you shoot him the next night. Town win, you win

Shot B) No shot.
Either you or the mayor is converted into a vamp, giving vamp majority.

Results:

1. If you are converted, most likely mayor will vote the vamp immediately and lynch him. You can't convert that night and will get hung the next day. Town win, you lose
2. If the mayor is converted, vamps have majority and will lynch you. Vamp win, you lose

Shot C) Shoot the Revealed Mayor.
Shooting a revealed mayor is considered gamethrowing (you are sure they are not a vamp by trying to whisper them). However, this is what I see as the best play you can make in this situation, in order to ensure a win for yourself.

Results:

1. If the vampires bite you, you and the other vampire win as the mayor is now dead. This is Shot B result 1 except you actually win in this situation. Vamp win, you win
2. If the vampire bites the Mayor, you predicted the bite and will kill a vamp, leading to you shooting the vamp the next night. Town win, you win

___

The only situation when you win 100% of the time is by shooting the Revealed Mayor, and can even result in a win for town in which you win too.

Gamethrowing definition:

Intentionally losing the game or hurting your team's chances of winning is gamethrowing.

Example 2:
A Vigilante killing a revealed Mayor is gamethrowing.

It explicitly states that killing the Mayor is gamethrowing. *However*, you are not "intentionally losing the game" as you win in both scenarios.

hurting your team's chances of winning

If the revealed mayor was converted that night, and you shot him, you would not be hurting town's chances at winning (town would win). However, again in example 2, it explicitly states that shooting the mayor is throwing. So would you get banned for this play?

Probably not, because vamps are complicated.

Does the vampire decide if you gamethrew?
If you shot the revealed mayor but you were converted to a vamp, you would indeed be reported for throwing. A town win could have occurred but you "hurt your team's chances of winning" and instead vamps won.

If you shot the revealed mayor but the mayor was converted, town would win and you would not be reported for throwing as you made an educated guess that the mayor would be converted.

You gamethrew whether the mayor was converted or not.
Both a vigilante shot and a vampire bite have priority 5, but the order is different depending on if you're shooting or being shot:

1. Vigilantes shoot
2. Vamp bites convert players
3. Players are shot by vigilante

(Any other order wouldn't make sense: players aren't converted after they die to the vigilante shot)

When you take your shot as a vigilante, by the time you kill that player, you are now a vampire if you were bitten*.

So you really just shot the mayor as a vampire right? Not gamethrowing. However, if you disagree with that, then think about this.

When you decided to take that shot during the night, you were indeed a vigilante. So if the mayor was not converted, you shot a revealed mayor as a vigilante.

You gamethrew.

But going by the same logic, when you decided to take that shot during the night, the mayor was indeed a revealed mayor. So you shot a revealed mayor as a vigilante, even though the mayor died as a vampire and you won for town.

You gamethrew, even though you shot a vampire, and you and faction won because of your shot.

Let's take a look:

A Vigilante killing a revealed Mayor is gamethrowing.

Yes, you did this, so you gamethrew.

hurting your team's chances of winning

But you didn't meet this condition. So did you really gamethrow?

___

So does the who the vampire convert decide if you're gamethrowing?


Did you gamethrow no matter what? Even if you won the game for your own faction?

Do you only gamethrow if the mayor died as mayor (not as a vamp)? So the vampire does decide if you gamethrew?

Did you not gamethrow at all? Maybe you just made a stupid play that included shooting a revealed mayor.

___

*I think this is how priority works, however I would appreciate clarification.


TLDR: If a vamp converts a revealed mayor the same night you shoot the mayor, town wins and everyone's happy. However if the vamp converts you, you win as a vamp but get reported by all of town for gamethrowing (you could have lost as a vamp but given town the win).

[dolphina]

You gamethrow if you shoot the revealed Mayor, because you always have to play by your current win condition, NOT your future one. Even if you win in both scenarios, you still meet the definition of gamethrowing because YOU shot the revealed Mayor, and your wincon was a TOWN wincon. Therefore, shooting the revealed Mayor in ANY circumstance is bad. And think about this: what if the Vamp just doesn't bite (They're afk)? THEN you'll have met the standard definition of gamethrowing.

TL;DR: always shoot the vamp. it doesn't matter who they convert, if you shoot the mayor, that's gt.

[Ezradekezra]

I'm pretty sure you'll end up suiciding if you shoot the Mayor, since targets don't die as Vampires the same night that they're converted iirc

[CoocooFroggy]

you still meet the definition of gamethrowing because YOU shot the revealed Mayor, and your wincon was a TOWN wincon.

And if the vamp converted the mayor and you predicted the conversion? Is this gamethrowing? Does the vampire decide if you gamethrew or not? Your wincon was a town wincon and if you shot a mayor turned vamp the same night, you won it for town.

[MafiaxSK]

I don’t think this is throwing either way. You know the vampire has to bite the mayor if they have any brain cells, unless they cant bite but chances are you have a good idea of whether they converted last night or not and would make your play based on that. I’d you don’t shoot mayor you (and possibly town) lose either way unless mayor and vamp wait two days to hand you the win. It’s kinda the same situation where you target a revealed mayor or jailor (or any town) as vig when there’s trans because if you don’t make that risky play, you lose majority the next day. This seems more like a logic/semantics problem than anything, but since you have to admit you threw to get guiltied for it in the TS, explaining in detail why you made the play to win and why town has a higher chance of losing if you don’t shoot mayor, you almost certainly won’t get guiltied for throwing. Interesting scenario though.

[Brilliand]

The reasoning "it's only gamethrowing if it actually causes harm to my teammates" applies to how players decide to report, but not to the actual rules.

You constantly see players in-game saying "report if town" when someone does something stupid on the stand. I don't quite recall which way the rules fall on this, but there's no way getting yourself lynched is only gamethrowing if you're Town.

With regard to this thread, though, Ezradekezra has it right: shooting the Mayor while the vampire converts the Mayor will cause you to suicide, losing the game. For shooting the Mayor to result in a win, you would need another player alive and willing to help you lynch the Vampire just before you suicide.

[CoocooFroggy]

I'm pretty sure you'll end up suiciding if you shoot the Mayor, since targets don't die as Vampires the same night that they're converted iirc

Ezradekezra has it right: shooting the Mayor while the vampire converts the Mayor will cause you to suicide, losing the game.

Did not know this, that definitely changes the scenario, as shooting a whisper-able revealed Mayor will never be a good play to make then for town to win (if you're hoping to be converted that night, then this is definitely throwing).

[Chemist1422]

vampire could also not convert during the night

in which case you lose if you shoot the mayor and the vamp doesn't convert you next night

[CoocooFroggy]

vampire could also not convert during the night

Although that is true, I highly doubt the vampire expects to get a free win by not converting (they'd probably think they were going to get shot by the vigi)

[EqsyLootz]

I think I disagree with the non shooting Mayor policy. As well if you shoot the mayor you have a 100% Victory chance.

Outcome A: You shoot the mayor you get converted by vampire.
Outcome B: You shoot the mayor and they get converted by vampire you then shoot the other vamp the next night
or
Outcome C: Vamp just doesn't convert, you get screwed over and.. Yeah.

[Ezradekezra]

Outcome B: You shoot the mayor and they get converted by vampire you then shoot the other vamp the next night

You're forgetting the part where the Mayor won't die as a Vampire and you'll commit suicide the next night, ending the game with a loss.

[EqsyLootz]

Outcome B: You shoot the mayor and they get converted by vampire you then shoot the other vamp the next night

You're forgetting the part where the Mayor won't die as a Vampire and you'll commit suicide the next night, ending the game with a loss.

Oh, is that how it works?

[Ezradekezra]

Outcome B: You shoot the mayor and they get converted by vampire you then shoot the other vamp the next night

You're forgetting the part where the Mayor won't die as a Vampire and you'll commit suicide the next night, ending the game with a loss.

Oh, is that how it works?

Last I checked, it was. I might be wrong though, if it was changed or something.

[MafiaxSK]

Oh, if the bitten mayor doesn’t die as vamp, don’t shoot the mayor unless you can win via lynching the next day. Still wouldn’t be throwing if you misunderstood how that works, but it would probably lose you the game.

[OreCreeper]

Vampire will most likely bite the mayor because if they don't, it's pretty much a guaranteed loss. So the best play would be to shoot the vampire.

[kiromishiro21]

If you kill the Mayor in that case it isnt considered gamethrowing
You can ask the vampire to bite you and you just have to shoot the Mayor.

That is what I believe. I don't think you get banned for that. I heard a moderator/admin /Judge / -and¿* once say that if you want to win that way it is not Gt.
But I don't remember well. I don't even know who said it. Sometimes I forget very quickly


The best thing for the Mayor is to hang the Vigilante and have the vampire bite him later

[kyuss420]

Outcome B: You shoot the mayor and they get converted by vampire you then shoot the other vamp the next night

You're forgetting the part where the Mayor won't die as a Vampire and you'll commit suicide the next night, ending the game with a loss.

Oh, is that how it works?

Last I checked, it was. I might be wrong though, if it was changed or something.

nope, you are correct.

If vamps convert, they have to wait a night to convert another.
If their target dies, they can bite next night, because their target wasnt converted. Priority 5 means they are only converted, after the system checks whether they are dead or alive.

so if vigi shoots mayor, he will die of guilt, unless the vamp converts him. He wont get another bullet to kill the final vamp.

If vamp bites mayor, and vig shoots vamp....mayor has to wait a night before he can bite the vigi.... vigi wins
if vamp bites vigi, mayor has time to vote them both off, before they can convert again.....mayor wins

Vigis best move is to shoot the vamp. (if vigi is bitten, he loses. if he shoots mayor, he loses)
Vamp is fucked no matter who he bites.... best move is to bite the vigi and hope vigi is dumb enough to shoot the mayor...

[Brilliand]

Vamp is fucked no matter who he bites.... best move is to bite the vigi and hope vigi is dumb enough to shoot the mayor...

If the vigi shoots the Mayor, the vamp wins either way. I'd say best move is to bite the Mayor, and hope the "vigi" isn't really a vigi (or forgets to shoot, or has already shot twice this game).

[kyuss420]

Vamp is fucked no matter who he bites.... best move is to bite the vigi and hope vigi is dumb enough to shoot the mayor...

If the vigi shoots the Mayor, the vamp wins either way. I'd say best move is to bite the Mayor, and hope the "vigi" isn't really a vigi (or forgets to shoot, or has already shot twice this game).

The given situation from the OP was that the vigi is a vigi and has at least 2 bullets remaining. Biting the mayor would leave 1 vamp that cant bite and a vigi with a bullet remaining the following night.

[Brilliand]

The given situation from the OP was that the vigi is a vigi and has at least 2 bullets remaining. Biting the mayor would leave 1 vamp that cant bite and a vigi with a bullet remaining the following night.

Doesn't mean the vamp knows that.

[kyuss420]

The given situation from the OP was that the vigi is a vigi and has at least 2 bullets remaining. Biting the mayor would leave 1 vamp that cant bite and a vigi with a bullet remaining the following night.

Doesn't mean the vamp knows that.

how do you think they discovered the SK?

[Brilliand]

how do you think they discovered the SK?

By shooting him twice?

[Soulshade55r]

People should always play on their current wincon

[James2]

If you are converted, most likely mayor will vote the vamp immediately and lynch him. You can't convert that night and will get hung the next day. Town win, you lose

You and the vampire can win if you quickvote the mayor. The mayor has an advantage (since only he needs to vote for town to win), but this outcome isn't certain.

[*]If the mayor is converted, vamps have majority and will lynch you. Vamp win, you lose

It's not likely, but they could decide to give you a pity win (they wouldn't endanger their win by doing so, since even if you shot at them they could convert you on the second night).

If the vampire bites the Mayor, you predicted the bite and will kill a vamp, leading to you shooting the vamp the next night. Town win, you win

Conversions process after kills. In this scenario mayor dies as mayor and you suicide the next night, losing as town.

I totally agree that players should seek their individual win conditions and not anyone else's, but your reasoning in this case is erroneous. The vampire's best chance at winning will be to bite the mayor (see below), so unless he's explicitly told you that he's biting you, your best chance is to shoot the vampire.

If vampire bites you, his outcomes are as follows:

If you shoot him, mayor lynches you and he loses.
If you do nothing, the win will go to whichever team votes quickest.
If you shoot mayor, he wins.

If vampire bites mayor, his outcomes are:

If you shoot him, it comes down to you and mayor-vamp. He loses unless you decide to spare mayor-vamp (which you could do without endangering your personal win, though most players wouldn't).
If you do nothing, he wins.
If you shoot mayor, he wins.

In all cases, the vampire's chances of winning are better if he bites mayor. He can considerably increase his chances of winning by telling you you're about to be bitten, but even if he tells you that it's still in his interests to actually bite mayor. Of course, there's a lot of players who don't think their actions through.

Tl;dr who you should shoot depends on what you believe the vampire will do. *If* the vampire is rational, you should shoot him. But he may not be rational.

[ProjectSuperBoy]

Now that people have pointed out that Mayor would die before he gets converted, I would like to see if you would change your premise any.