Jailor meta needs to go

[Supertcgamer]

The jailor meta cripples all evils claim space in rank. Evils cant claim tp nor LO. They're forced to claim one of the 3 TI roles, a TK role (which is always sus) or a TS role which is impossible to prove as. And certain TI roles are nearly impossible to fake such as inves unless your consig or witch, then there is spy and sheriff. These are the only TI roles you can easily claim (especially if mafia). As well this really limits NK and mafia killing people as if they kill a cc, say a sheriff and one of the killing factions claims sheriff that "sheriff" is getting lynched. So maf and NK really have to hit LO and tp first which is hard to do at times and sometimes the RTS are in favor of nothing but LO and tps which gives them all the ability to setup a high defense. And allows possibly the other TIs (if any) to figure out who maf is cause TIs and tp and RTS are pretty much full. If RT is nothing but literally tp/lo and both TI is LO. Well there's only claim space for TS and TK. And proving to be TS or TK is a death sentence, even if you manage to get the real tk or ts lynched or exe, it's 1f1.

Jailor meta breaks the game and it's time for it to go.

[OreCreeper]

The jailor meta cripples all evils claim space in rank. Evils cant claim tp nor LO. They're forced to claim one of the 3 TI roles, a TK role (which is always sus) or a TS role which is impossible to prove as. And certain TI roles are nearly impossible to fake such as inves unless your consig or witch, then there is spy and sheriff. These are the only TI roles you can easily claim (especially if mafia). As well this really limits NK and mafia killing people as if they kill a cc, say a sheriff and one of the killing factions claims sheriff that "sheriff" is getting lynched. So maf and NK really have to hit LO and tp first which is hard to do at times and sometimes the RTS are in favor of nothing but LO and tps which gives them all the ability to setup a high defense. And allows possibly the other TIs (if any) to figure out who maf is cause TIs and tp and RTS are pretty much full. If RT is nothing but literally tp/lo and both TI is LO. Well there's only claim space for TS and TK. And proving to be TS or TK is a death sentence, even if you manage to get the real tk or ts lynched or exe, it's 1f1.

Jailor meta breaks the game and it's time for it to go.

But evils can claim LO and definitely TP? What's your elo?

[Joacgroso]

Claiming invest isn't that hard as mafia. Just ask your teammates what they are going to claim and post the results the next day. You can also claim TP or lookout if you are jailed n1. If you are framer, forger or disguiser you can claim TP and visit jailor n1, being confirmed by lookouts.

[wozearly]

The jailor meta cripples all evils claim space in rank. Evils cant claim tp nor LO. They're forced to claim one of the 3 TI roles, a TK role (which is always sus) or a TS role which is impossible to prove as. And certain TI roles are nearly impossible to fake such as inves unless your consig or witch, then there is spy and sheriff. These are the only TI roles you can easily claim (especially if mafia). As well this really limits NK and mafia killing people as if they kill a cc, say a sheriff and one of the killing factions claims sheriff that "sheriff" is getting lynched. So maf and NK really have to hit LO and tp first which is hard to do at times and sometimes the RTS are in favor of nothing but LO and tps which gives them all the ability to setup a high defense. And allows possibly the other TIs (if any) to figure out who maf is cause TIs and tp and RTS are pretty much full. If RT is nothing but literally tp/lo and both TI is LO. Well there's only claim space for TS and TK. And proving to be TS or TK is a death sentence, even if you manage to get the real tk or ts lynched or exe, it's 1f1.

Jailor meta breaks the game and it's time for it to go.

But evils can claim LO and definitely TP? What's your elo?

Erm...good luck with that LO claim during the Jailor meta.

If there is actually another LO in the game, on N1 you'll need to be seen visiting the Jailor (and so not be a killing role) and correctly identify the other Lookout, plus who any TP, Escort and Spy claims are to whisper them to the Jailor on D2 (assuming no Jailor cc's). While there's a small possibility for error in the 3+ visits confusion, you won't know how many visitors the Jailor has and so still need to predict with high accuracy. Frankly, the bar for that is absurdly high, and with a few whispers the Jailor will rapidly establish which LO will is correct and which one is a complete fabrication.

The only way to fake it with another LO in play is to use other Mafia members to pretend to be those roles and try to present Town with two completely contradictory LO wills both backed up by their respective visitors. The problem there is that as soon as the Town establish which one is the Mafia version (Disguiser is only of limited help here) then they can simply sweep up any Mafia members involved in the fakery. You'd be better off not risking it.

So if you're trying it, you're doing so in the 50/50 hope there is no actual Lookout. But as you have to openly claim D2 and your info will be amongst the first to be followed up, it's a very ballsy move that again, you ideally need at least one of the other Mafia to go along with. Which means the whole house of cards can fall if you're challenged - and you will be, by all the roles that actually did visit the Jailor which you have no idea about when you make the fake claim.

Claiming LO was always somewhat tricky, but under the Jailor meta at high ELO it's just not worth it.

[Joacgroso]

Claiming lookout is possible if you are jailed/witched/roleblocked n1 or if mafia has a bmer. Otherwise it's very risky, although you can push people for roles and write down in your will everyone who claims tp or whispers the jailor. It's still very hard, though.

[OreCreeper]

The jailor meta cripples all evils claim space in rank. Evils cant claim tp nor LO. They're forced to claim one of the 3 TI roles, a TK role (which is always sus) or a TS role which is impossible to prove as. And certain TI roles are nearly impossible to fake such as inves unless your consig or witch, then there is spy and sheriff. These are the only TI roles you can easily claim (especially if mafia). As well this really limits NK and mafia killing people as if they kill a cc, say a sheriff and one of the killing factions claims sheriff that "sheriff" is getting lynched. So maf and NK really have to hit LO and tp first which is hard to do at times and sometimes the RTS are in favor of nothing but LO and tps which gives them all the ability to setup a high defense. And allows possibly the other TIs (if any) to figure out who maf is cause TIs and tp and RTS are pretty much full. If RT is nothing but literally tp/lo and both TI is LO. Well there's only claim space for TS and TK. And proving to be TS or TK is a death sentence, even if you manage to get the real tk or ts lynched or exe, it's 1f1.

Jailor meta breaks the game and it's time for it to go.

But evils can claim LO and definitely TP? What's your elo?

Erm...good luck with that LO claim during the Jailor meta.

If there is actually another LO in the game, on N1 you'll need to be seen visiting the Jailor (and so not be a killing role) and correctly identify the other Lookout, plus who any TP, Escort and Spy claims are to whisper them to the Jailor on D2 (assuming no Jailor cc's). While there's a small possibility for error in the 3+ visits confusion, you won't know how many visitors the Jailor has and so still need to predict with high accuracy. Frankly, the bar for that is absurdly high, and with a few whispers the Jailor will rapidly establish which LO will is correct and which one is a complete fabrication.

The only way to fake it with another LO in play is to use other Mafia members to pretend to be those roles and try to present Town with two completely contradictory LO wills both backed up by their respective visitors. The problem there is that as soon as the Town establish which one is the Mafia version (Disguiser is only of limited help here) then they can simply sweep up any Mafia members involved in the fakery. You'd be better off not risking it.

So if you're trying it, you're doing so in the 50/50 hope there is no actual Lookout. But as you have to openly claim D2 and your info will be amongst the first to be followed up, it's a very ballsy move that again, you ideally need at least one of the other Mafia to go along with. Which means the whole house of cards can fall if you're challenged - and you will be, by all the roles that actually did visit the Jailor which you have no idea about when you make the fake claim.

Claiming LO was always somewhat tricky, but under the Jailor meta at high ELO it's just not worth it.

Does a spy post their will d2? Shove it into your will. Did you kill a TP n1? Shove it into your will. You can even include your other RM in your will and just put "and more". Even if the other RM dies, you won't look sus cuz RMs are expected to visit jailor n1.

[Joacgroso]

You can even include your other RM in your will and just put "and more". Even if the other RM dies, you won't look sus cuz RMs are expected to visit jailor n1.

Don't you have to know the exact amount of visits in order to do that?

[CrimsonKatana]

AKA admitting you're trash at the game in a post

[wozearly]

Does a spy post their will d2? Shove it into your will. Did you kill a TP n1? Shove it into your will. You can even include your other RM in your will and just put "and more". Even if the other RM dies, you won't look sus cuz RMs are expected to visit jailor n1.

The way the Jailor meta plays out in high ELO is that the Lookout would be expected to whisper their results to the Jailor at the start of D2. You've got a minute's grace because LO wills take longer to transcribe than, say, a Sheriff will - but if you produce it halfway through D2 or claim LO at a later stage it'll be suspicious as all hell.

If there is no other Lookout, what you suggest is a good idea if info happens to come up immediately (e.g. Maf/NK kill an Escort, TP, Spy, etc.) as it'll reduce the amount of creative lying you have to do. The problem you face is that you can't guarantee that, and either way must commit immediately on D2 when you have the least information. As soon as Town members you listed incorrectly or didn't list correctly get voted up (which is likely during VFR) they'll immediately dispute your will. The best you'll get is a single early mislynch before the Jailor removes you, sends a Vigi after you, etc. That's not a good trade-off.

And that's the 50% best case scenario, where no other LO rolls. If another LO rolls, you don't stand a chance in hell if you're presenting a different will at the start of D2 unless you're going for a very off-the-wall "RM pretending to be Jester" play, which isn't something I'd personally recommend.

So yes, you can attempt to claim LO, but it's not a sustainable claim and has to be made proactively and early in the Jailor meta, making it one of riskiest and most difficult fake claims to go for.

[Supertcgamer]

Claiming invest isn't that hard as mafia. Just ask your teammates what they are going to claim and post the results the next day. You can also claim TP or lookout if you are jailed n1. If you are framer, forger or disguiser you can claim TP and visit jailor n1, being confirmed by lookouts.

I agree with the framer and disguiser visiting jailor so they can "confirm" themselves. Forger has 3 visits. It's not worth it. But there is a problem to this, spy. Spy counters all RMs hard, if spy's there and a LO is there all they need to do is get claims lynch a guy to find out who evil is. sometimes being 1f1 or 2f1 etc. Even if there is no lo it might be a bit harder to weed out the evils but a few lynches and vigi shots with a jailor exe should do the trick. Spy makes this a problem.

AKA admitting you're trash at the game in a post

Goes straight to insults with no actual in game examples. I want to use a famous Socrates quote so badly but it's not really slander.

Claiming invest isn't that hard as mafia. Just ask your teammates what they are going to claim and post the results the next day. You can also claim TP or lookout if you are jailed n1. If you are framer, forger or disguiser you can claim TP and visit jailor n1, being confirmed by lookouts.

You do realize when your RM even visits jailor a long side with all other tp claims and LOs claims and you claim TI it gives off there is a play going on. So if say mafioso or gf claims inves and disguiser and framer claim tp and or spy there is already to many claims, you got a guarantee tp cc, and two guarantee TI ccs. Then you'll have 3 RT ccs if any of em are ti or tp. Then there is the problem with TS. Ret is still unique so anyone who ccs ret will juat become a 1f1 showdown. Then you have escort which can go either way, meds who CAN confirm each other at night and mayor. So TS is usually out of the question. Not to mention if your RM disguiser or framer is killed for a 1f1 deal will also out you as a fake inves. Which in more times than not it happens. So it's not really a good idea to claim inves as maf or give out their claim info on day 2 or day 3 unless necessary. It can work and be very smart but it's to hard to pull off. Jailor is a problem, town is suppose to be the uninformed majority, jailor is a team captain that gets info rolling way to fast in early game. Even if maf plays along on the meta there is still a high chance of maf.getting found out. The winrates prove this.

[Joacgroso]

I agree with the framer and disguiser visiting jailor so they can "confirm" themselves. Forger has 3 visits. It's not worth it. But there is a problem to this, spy. Spy counters all RMs hard, if spy's there and a LO is there all they need to do is get claims lynch a guy to find out who evil is. sometimes being 1f1 or 2f1 etc. Even if there is no lo it might be a bit harder to weed out the evils but a few lynches and vigi shots with a jailor exe should do the trick. Spy makes this a problem.

Forgers are pretty much useless. It's not really a waste. Spies are actually a reason to visit the jailor, not to avoid him. If there is a lookout, mafia can get some misslynches or missexecutions, which can give them mayority. Lynching one TP might make the difference between killing the jailor and gaining mayority or not, even if lookouts finds out who killed him. But more importantly, if there is a lookout and mafia doesn't visit the jailor, then everyone who visited him will be confirmed, which is way worse for mafia than one of their teammates being suspected.

You do realize when your RM even visits jailor a long side with all other tp claims and LOs claims and you claim TI it gives off there is a play going on. So if say mafioso or gf claims inves and disguiser and framer claim tp and or spy there is already to many claims, you got a guarantee tp cc, and two guarantee TI ccs. Then you'll have 3 RT ccs if any of em are ti or tp. Then there is the problem with TS. Ret is still unique so anyone who ccs ret will juat become a 1f1 showdown. Then you have escort which can go either way, meds who CAN confirm each other at night and mayor. So TS is usually out of the question. Not to mention if your RM disguiser or framer is killed for a 1f1 deal will also out you as a fake inves. Which in more times than not it happens. So it's not really a good idea to claim inves as maf or give out their claim info on day 2 or day 3 unless necessary. It can work and be very smart but it's to hard to pull off. Jailor is a problem, town is suppose to be the uninformed majority, jailor is a team captain that gets info rolling way to fast in early game. Even if maf plays along on the meta there is still a high chance of maf.getting found out. The winrates prove this.

What winrates prove it? Where does that data come from?
I don't really get why you tried to say. I don't understand why town would suspect a TI claim because other people visited the jailor. It's not like all mafia is going to be claiming on the same slot. Ideally, everyone should change a different slot so no townie is confirmed by lack of counter claims. Having guaranteed ccs doesn't matter for mafia because they will have them anyway no matter what they claim, unless someone was cleaned. And if everyone is cced, town won't know who to lynch. Besides, if there are too many TI claims, sheriffs are more likely to be killed than investigators. You can whisper fake results to the jailor and make him execute a townie. You don't need to cause that many misslynches in order to get mayority. Even if you are outed after that, town won't be able to do anything about it.
I don't get why you started talking about TS, but yes, that's the hardest slot to claim. It's still possible under the right circumstances, if you ask for mafia to help you. It's true that backing up a teammate is risky, but if mafia members don't coordinate and work like an actual team, they will be destroyed by town, who will try to confirm each other. Of course, it's better for evils to claim late, but town shouldn't let them do that.

[wozearly]

Spies are actually a reason to visit the jailor, not to avoid him. If there is a lookout, mafia can get some misslynches or missexecutions, which can give them mayority. Lynching one TP might make the difference between killing the jailor and gaining mayority or not, even if lookouts finds out who killed him. But more importantly, if there is a lookout and mafia doesn't visit the jailor, then everyone who visited him will be confirmed, which is way worse for mafia than one of their teammates being suspected.

I broadly agree, although it's a subpar situation for Mafia.

In the event that there is a Lookout and no Spy, Mafia are have an identified RM who must claim from a limited set of roles. Which isn't good, as they're forced into the claim before they have any idea what the claimspace looks like. On the flip side, their claim to be that role is better than if randomly made on the stand or during VFR.

If there's a Lookout and Spy, there then usually begins a witch hunt for the RM (or RMs) that visited the Jailor. That can work out well if the RMs dogpile the Jailor and ensure the LO won't be able to confirm everyone, but in a worst case scenario at least one Mafia member turns up on a list of suspects right at the start of D2 with a very narrow set of options to claim from.

If there is no Lookout, the RMs wasted a visit in case there was. Which is why BM should never do it, because it will reveal to the Jailor one of the RM types in play.

Mafia would be far better served by not having to jump through those hoops just to try to prevent the risk of Town having a wall of verified claims...but yeah, that's why the Jailor meta needs a hammer taken to it.

What winrates prove it? Where does that data come from?

Come on now, are you saying you haven't experienced Town's 75%+ winrate at higher ELO tiers?

There's a reason why the Jailor meta is so pervasive amongst Town. It has a huge positive impact on their winrates that massively outweighs the few times where dumb bad luck makes it cause them enormous headaches.

I don't understand why town would suspect a TI claim because other people visited the jailor ... You don't need to cause that many misslynches in order to get mayority. Even if you are outed after that, town won't be able to do anything about it ... It's true that backing up a teammate is risky, but if mafia members don't coordinate and work like an actual team, they will be destroyed by town, who will try to confirm each other. Of course, it's better for evils to claim late, but town shouldn't let them do that.

His point is fair - it was a combination of an earlier suggestion that claiming Invest is straightforward if you back up your fellow Mafia's claims (e.g. Framer visits the Jailor N1 and claims Spy, Mafioso claims Invest and posts the Framer as Spy/BM/Jailor). If you have a Lookout and a Spy, that just-so-happens-to-confirm-me Invest result would be considered potentially suspicious. If the Jailer and Lookout are awake, they would likely insist the Invest visits either a) someone specific on the Lookout's list who has claimed to the Jailor, and who is highly likely to be Town, or b) someone at random not on the list to make it harder for the Invest to guess what their role might be. And they'll expect the answer on D3.

If anything goes wrong in that sequence (Mafioso or Framer are checked by an RT Sheriff or RT Invest, Mafioso guesses the invest result wrong, Mafioso or Framer is killed by NK) then Town have two confirmed Mafia members to lynch/execute. While there's a chance it could go gloriously well, with the Jailor mis-executing their own TP and an SK and Mafia swiftly overwhelming Town's majority, chances are the Town will win those odds more than the Mafia.

It's generally very risky to open early on with a claim which is intertwined with another Mafia member, as if either of you dies then suspicion falls quickly on the other. While there are no hard and fast rules, I'd say you'd generally be better off with a claim which backs up another Town member first, then introduce something which exonerates a fellow Mafia member afterwards, once you've already got a member of the Town wanting you to be legit and willing to back you up. Even better, if you're reasonably sure one of the Mafia is falling under suspicion and you're claiming TI, chat with them that night first to get the ok, but then bus them ASAP the following day. It's amazing how many Town members will attach far too much credibility to the first TI to announce a Mafia as confirmed Mafia on a given day.

You're right that Mafia ideally need to work as a team and back up their claims, but the best time to do this isn't from the start, but when Town's majority is shaky and the Mafia can end up with 2-3 Town members yelling at 2-3 other Town members, both insisting the other group are the Mafia with their wills backing them up, with the other Town having no idea which is correct. That kind of "errr...either could be true" situation is absolutely prime mislynch / mis-execution material.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Fix to D1 Jailor meta

If the Jailor talks D1, he gets modkilled

Ez

[Brilliand]

Fix to D1 Jailor meta

If the Jailor talks D1, he gets modkilled

Ez

"Jailor starts the game blackmailed"

Would either result in Jailor claiming D2 (he can't execute his counterclaims until N2 anyway), or a crazy mess D1 with everyone claiming "Not Jailor".

[cob709]

solution to jailor meta:

DAY ONE
Jailor: "im jailor tplo on me"
Godfather: "I'm Jailor, TP/LO on me."
everyone: wha???
Godfather: "Oh, he's a fake."

NIGHT ONE
Attack Jailor
(if jailed): "I was vet baiting"

DAY TWO
Godfather: "I was vet baiting"

[Brilliand]

solution to jailor meta:

DAY ONE
Jailor: "im jailor tplo on me"
Godfather: "I'm Jailor, TP/LO on me."
everyone: wha???
Godfather: "Oh, he's a fake."

NIGHT ONE
Attack Jailor
(if jailed): "I was vet baiting"

DAY TWO
Godfather: "I was vet baiting"

This is very easy to counter.

• TP and LO randomly pick which "jailor" to go on. >50% chance they will stop the attack, and there's a decent chance of catching or killing the Mafioso in the process.
• "I was vet baiting" is no excuse (vet baiting like that is pretty much a gamethrow anyway). Jailor executes you N2.

I'm guessing this counter is what already happens in upper Ranked.

I like your tactic as a strategy to use at lower levels, but it won't hold up against people who have a lot of practice with the meta.

[cob709]

well the strat works in bronze

[CheezePie]

I mean, the jailer meta works under the right conditions.
But I never follow it as a jailer. It's fun seeing the town go mad D2 because I haven't claimed.

[wozearly]

I mean, the jailer meta works under the right conditions.
But I never follow it as a jailer. It's fun seeing the town go mad D2 because I haven't claimed.

It works under almost all conditions - that's why it's so powerful, and such a common go-to strategy, and why Towns are annoyed with you for following a sub-optimal approach.

You don't actually need the Jailer to do it. Technically, anyone can call for TP/LO/Esc/Spy on Day 1, as the primary benefit is to get those roles (and only those roles) visiting the same place on the same day so that, ideally, a Lookout and Spy can confirm them as Town members. It's even more helpful to Town if that info can then be whispered privately to a confirmed Town member and then shared back out, which is why the Jailor is the ideal role to lead it. Town then have a much better early indication of the rolelist than Mafia, and deny the Mafia claimspace across multiple roles. This is why Joacgrosso is right that the Mafia are generally better off risking the sacrifice of an RM to visit TP/LO callers N1 purely in order to slow the Town down in confirming that information.

Meanwhile, the Jailor is protected by at least one TP, with a 50% chance of a Lookout as backup and a fairly reasonable chance of a second LO or second TP lurking in the mix, all of which discourages attacks. So it's a fairly low risk reveal.

[wozearly]

solution to jailor meta:

DAY ONE
Jailor: "im jailor tplo on me"
Godfather: "I'm Jailor, TP/LO on me."
everyone: wha???
Godfather: "Oh, he's a fake."

NIGHT ONE
Attack Jailor
(if jailed): "I was vet baiting"

DAY TWO
Godfather: "I was vet baiting"

It might work in bronze, but it would rapidly collapse at higher ELOs.

The first question any competent Town is going to ask is "What the bleeding hell was the Vet doing calling for TP/LO? What were they going to do, alert and kill a whole bunch of Town on N1? Force the Jailer to jail them to prove they were lying and delay the meta into N2? Oh, so the Vet had a grand plan that if the TP died early they'd just alert and murder one of the Mafia...well, that's great. How were they planning to warn the Lookouts or RT TPs that they were planning to do that, given that no-one would be comfortable whispering roles to them until they're confirmed - and they can't confirm without alerting and killing someone? And now they're under pressure from the Town to claim on D2 because they faked Jailer, they've had to admit they're Vet anyway. I mean, seriously, is this guy actually a really terrible Vet player or are they an evil role trying to break the meta? Vote them up, see if we get a TK cc and lynch them if there's at least one."

Honestly, if there was an easy way to break the Jailer meta, Master tier players would have found a consistent way to do it by now. The bald truth is that we haven't, because there isn't one.

[OreCreeper]

Fix to D1 Jailor meta

If the Jailor talks D1, he gets modkilled

Ez

I can do better. Any townie who visits the jailor gets dealt an unstoppable attack. Now all the silver elo players who dont know how to deal with the jailor meta can stop complaining

[CheezePie]

Fix to D1 Jailor meta

If the Jailor talks D1, he gets modkilled

Ez

I can do better. Any townie who visits the jailor gets dealt an unstoppable attack. Now all the silver elo players who dont know how to deal with the jailor meta can stop complaining

Here's something even better.
If any townie visits the jailor, they are dealt an unstoppable attack, and the jailor executes themself.

[BlastingOff]

A better idea: Mafia autowins as soon as a townie rolls. Let's reduce town's winrate

[CheezePie]

A better idea: Mafia autowins as soon as a townie rolls. Let's reduce town's winrate

oh my god, how did we never think of this

[PatrykSzczescie]

Just replace Jailor in ranked with TK so it's not guaranteed roll. Then people might get paranoid with D1 Jailor claim as it can be potential Arsonist.