Disguiser, Forger, Framer Balance Ideas

[shapesifter13]

Hey Townies!

Here are some changes we have been discussing in relation to the Disguiser and Forger.

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

[dolphina]

Hey Townies!

Here are some changes we have been discussing in relation to the Disguiser and Forger.

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

This seems cool.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

This seems... a bit op. Maybe limit the disguises? 5 charges?

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

It needs more than this. We should have the lookout and tracker affected by Framer. Maybe a framed target could be seen visiting the Framer? Maybe the Framer can choose what role the target appears as?

[Brilliand]

Kigigiri recently posted a really cool Disguiser/Framer buff here: viewtopic.php?p=3500675#p3500675

Kikigiri's idea gives partial role-forging abilities to both the Disguiser and the Framer, yet it doesn't give the Mafia a way to role-forge the Mafia kill, so there's still room for the Forger buff proposed here. That Forger buff is one I've always been skeptical of, but tbh I think it's the best forger buff that has actually been proposed so far, so it will have to do.

The Framer buff proposed here is a good small buff; no problem with giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, though of course it won't be enough by itself.

The Disguiser buff proposed here looks OK, but it doesn't look like it could be combined with Kikigiri's idea, which I like better. It would definitely be an improvement over current Disguiser, at least.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

This seems... a bit op. Maybe limit the disguises? 5 charges?

5 charges? It must not be very OP if you just want to limit it to the length of the average game.

[dolphina]

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

This seems... a bit op. Maybe limit the disguises? 5 charges?

5 charges? It must not be very OP if you just want to limit it to the length of the average game.

Fuck. 3 charges it is then

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

Now that's what I like to see.
However, Janitor might need a buff after this... this kind of seems better in nearly every way.
Perhaps a downside to this is the Disguiser doesn't know the real role of the Forged person? Unless they've claimed, of course. But then forging them would have less impact.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player (and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

This is really complicated, but pretty good. Basically a counter to Spy, Lookout, and Investigator, while still being weak to Sheriff. I do believe I like Kirigiri's perma Disg better, but this is still good.

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

Framer passively frames targets that visit them
Compared to the buffs that the others are getting, this is underwhelming. I still think Framer should be able to make other Mafia seem inno. Perhaps have a cap on that? Maybe even a one time use ability that makes the entire Mafia seem inno for one night?

[Brilliand]

I still think Framer should be able to make other Mafia seem inno.

I think Kikigiri is right that this should be Disguiser's ability.

[OreCreeper]

I still think Framer should be able to make other Mafia seem inno.

I think Kikigiri is right that this should be Disguiser's ability.

Doesn't make sense- the disguiser can't make himself look inno, why should he be able to do it to fellow mafia? That seems more of a Framer thing.

[OreCreeper]

Hey Townies!

Here are some changes we have been discussing in relation to the Disguiser and Forger.

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.
Imo this was the best way to buff disguiser. It was the most similar to the current disguiser in terms of the way it's ability works. Idk this is just a better janitor with less uses. The best way to buff forger is to give it a lookout ability still, imo (especially since it's VERY hard to claim lookout rn, even with the recent nerf). Obviously the forger watch would not be limited to 3 visits.
Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.
Nonono the previous disguiser change was fine. This one is weird and once again completely changes the way disguiser would work. I'm personally not a huge fan of complete reworks, especially since the previous proposed change was fine for Disguiser (but keep wills, it can help mafia get away with mislynches without outing that there's a disguiser).
Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

Framer doesn't need semi-permanent frames. It needs to be able to affect more TIs (ideally all of them). The old change was good in that it can counter spy in a way (albeit slightly OP against sheriff, an already weak TI role). But that was a step in the right direction for sure. Having semi-permanent frames just makes framer require less skill to play, while keeping the framer's fundamental problem: its completely useless in games without a sheriff or investigator. Sure it might be difficult to predict who the sheriff/investigator will visit, but that wasn't the framer's main problem. The main problem is even if the framer can pull off a frame, it doesn't have a huge affect atm, and it's power depends on the roles in play.

[Brilliand]

Doesn't make sense- the disguiser can't make himself look inno, why should he be able to do it to fellow mafia? That seems more of a Framer thing.

"Framing" is making someone look bad. Making someone look good doesn't fit so well.

One problem I see with giving Framer the ability to make Mafia roles look inno is that it splits the role's job between "visiting Town" and "visiting Mafia", with the player basically having to pick one and not get much use out of the other. It will tend toward only whichever of those abilities is the stronger actually getting used.

Disguiser, on the other hand, already has the job of making himself look inno to the Investigator; it wouldn't split his purpose at all for him to be able to do that for any Mafia member, in a way that affects multiple TI roles (such as Sheriff, for example).

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

"Framing" is making someone look bad. Making someone look good doesn't fit so well.

Negative + negative = positive

One problem I see with giving Framer the ability to make Mafia roles look inno is that it splits the role's job between "visiting Town" and "visiting Mafia", with the player basically having to pick one and not get much use out of the other. It will tend toward only whichever of those abilities is the stronger actually getting used.

Which is why it should be a one time use, make everyone seem inno type of thing yk?

Disguiser, on the other hand, already has the job of making himself look inno to the Investigator; it wouldn't split his purpose at all for him to be able to do that for any Mafia member, in a way that affects multiple TI roles (such as Sheriff, for example).

Yeah but everyone knows the puny Disguiser is no match for the chad Sheriff.

[Brilliand]

Negative + negative = positive

That doesn't work with addition. You have to multiply.

Negative * negative = positive

[cob709]

Hey Townies!

Here are some changes we have been discussing in relation to the Disguiser and Forger.

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

This sounds like a good buff for forger, great reasoning too.
The only problem is, if a forger puts a message that contains sensitive topics or racial slurs, players will be wrongly reported for it.
How do you plan to prevent this issue?
Besides that, it's a great buff,
/support

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

ah- seems interesting.
Almost like a "mafia transporter", but instead of redirecting visits, it redirects TI information
Might need to be worded better to be more concise, but overall
/support

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

Well, I guess this is better that the current framer.
Though, it's still inferior to Hex Master's permanent frame.
How do you plan to make framer and Hex master somewhat equal?
Despite it still being inferior to the hex master, it's better than nothing,
/support

---

Overall, great changes!
Framer and Forger need to be worked on a little more in order to bring it up to standard.

[PolarH]

I put my thoughts in video format - https://youtu.be/ESHIlexpqnY

[wozearly]

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

Having proposed this exact change for the Forger last year, I'm wholeheartedly behind it.

It equips Forger, Janitor and Disguiser with different methods of disrupting Town's understanding of the claimspace and/or buying Mafia the opportunity to hide within it more effectively:

Janitor: Hides the role and will information from Town, brings back both claimspace and will information to the Mafia
Forger: Makes a dying role appear to be something it's not, misleading Town's understanding of the claimspace. Can also attempt to use the last will info to trick the Town. Crucially, the Forger doesn't get to know the role that was forged, so it doesn't improve Mafia's understanding of the claimspace in the way Janitor does.
Disguiser: Makes a living player appear to be a role that they're not; helps to hide a member of the Mafia as a member of the Town to defy direct investigation by TIs. If the disguised role dies, Mafia can mislead Town's understanding of the claimspace and may gain information about the claimspace that they did not previously have.

All three work in different, complementary ways.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

Just trying to get my head round this one - if I've understood right, the Disguiser can basically switch the apparent role of any Mafia member (for argument's sake, Target 1) with any other person (for argument's sake, Target 2). The Disguiser's visits are Astral, so the Spy can't hard counter it. Additionally, any non-Astral visits made by Target 1 will appear to the Lookout to have been made by Target 2.

So, for example, the Disguiser switches the Mafioso (John) with a Sheriff (Deodat) and the Mafioso goes to kill a TP being watched by a Lookout. The Lookout will dutifully report that Deodat was the only visitor to the TP and, despite their protestations of innocence, Deodat will be lynched and flip Mafioso. If so, good grief that's a vicious ability to be able to spring on the Town.

Alternatively, the Framer (Mary) has fallen under suspicion and Mafia expects to have the watchful eye of the Sheriff and Investigator swing onto her. The Disguiser switches the Framer with a Doctor and, presumably, the Sheriff will see them as not suspicious and the Investigator (when their results turn up) will see them as Doctor. Meanwhile, the Lookout and Spy would be unable to confirm whether or not Mary had been Disguised. Provided Mary knows what she's being disguised as, and there's no other evidence to dispute her fake will, her results would be bulletproof.

Both of those are pretty powerful tools. I'm actually erring on the side of thinking the first one is a little too powerful. While I agree that the Spy shouldn't be able to hard counter Disguisers, I think it would make sense that the Lookout can see who actually visits rather than having the Disguiser disrupt that information. The ability to interfere with Lookout results might sit more naturally with the Framer.

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

Semi-permanent frames is a good idea in lieu of other changes, as that makes the potential for disrupting Sheriffs and Investigators more likely as the game goes on.

As neatly segued in from above, ideally the Framer should have tools to use against some combination of Lookouts, Trackers and Spies to prevent the awkward situation where they roll against a Town which has no roles susceptible to framing.

This might be a better place for the "make Town appear to be Mafia" ability proposed for the Disguiser regarding visits. Making a framed character appear to be Mafia when they visit someone, so that turns up on the Spy's results, could be a potential option for this. While making the Framer's visit Astral might be going too far, it would help if their own visit was also not automatically reported to the Spy.

[kosmo16]

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

Nice buff. However it encourages people to claim they roles D2 even more than now.
/support

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

Nice buff, mafia needed a tool to counter investigators.
/support

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

I prefered a version where framer could visit mafia members. Without it, spy still doesn't have mafia counters. Still step in the right direction.
/support

[wozearly]

The only problem is, if a forger puts a message that contains sensitive topics or racial slurs, players will be wrongly reported for it. How do you plan to prevent this issue?

This isn't actually a change from the current situation. It'd be picked up as part of the Trial system; players might get wrongly reported, but they wouldn't be punished for it.

[Brilliand]

So, for example, the Disguiser switches the Mafioso (John) with a Sheriff (Deodat) and the Mafioso goes to kill a TP being watched by a Lookout. The Lookout will dutifully report that Deodat was the only visitor to the TP and, despite their protestations of innocence, Deodat will be lynched and flip Mafioso. If so, good grief that's a vicious ability to be able to spring on the Town.

I don't think Deodat would flip Mafioso, in this situation. It sounds to me like the Disguiser only disguises the Mafia member he selects; in this case, the Mafioso is disguised as a Sheriff, while the actual Sheriff would remain Sheriff.

[delaware22]

With this framer change, will the Sheriff receive a buff?

Sheriff is already a very weak TI role in the current meta due to how easily and often it is faked. This Framer change runs sheriff into the ground even further but (because of choices made by BMG) doesn't affect Spy and LO at all, further broadening that power gap.

Possible buffs would be:

• Find arsonist as sus. Arsonist was buffed a LOT and easily counters Investigator due to how prolific douses are in 3.2.5. Given this change, there's no real reason for them to also be immune to Sheriff anymore.
• Being able to see Godfather as sus might be too strong but it should be considered just because it makes gameplay consistent and easier to grasp for new players. But buffing sheriff in this way really depends on how believable the "I was framed" defense will be in the shifted meta.

[TheFluffyWaffleV2]

With this framer change, will the Sheriff receive a buff?

Sheriff doesn't need a buff. Sheriff's basically just check people who aren't helping the town to see if they are Mafia.

[Ezradekezra]

Forger:
Previously we had discussed the ability for the Disguiser to make a player look like another role on death, and clean their will. This had a couple different problems after further discussion, and felt like an ability that belonged to the Forger. Our current plan is to allow the Forger to select a fake role for a player that will be displayed on death, and then write a fake will for that player. This removes its dependency on other roles to be powerful, and brings it more inline with something like Janitor. The Forger can remove claim space from Town roles, whereas the Janitor will open claim space for Mafia roles. To help compensate for the power of this ability we are going to bump the number of usable forges down to 2 from 3.

It's already hard enough to write a whole fake will in a single night. I feel like the Forger needs to be reworked into something else entirely. Also, I feel like this change would make the forgery even more obvious if the target had already claimed and posted a will.

Disguiser:
With the previous Disguiser change being given to the Forger we have continued to discuss ways to improve the Disguiser, and we decided that its ability to change its own investigative results could be applied to other players as well. The Disguiser would become a 2 target role that could chose a player(and role) to disguise a mafia member, including himself, to look like. A disguised player could visit another player and it would appear as though the Disguiser's 1st target was the one that did the visiting. The Disguiser would have Astral visits, which means your visits will not trigger any mechanic that relies on you visiting a player. If you disguise yourself as another role your Astral visit takes priority over showing your 1st target as having visited you.

I'm not sure what this means. Can someone explain in more detail?

Framer:
We are still considering giving the Framer semi-permanent frames, meaning the frames would stay until checked by an investigative role. Thank you for all your previous feedback about this change, and if you have any further feedback about this change, or any other change please let us know!

I'm fine with this, but it also needs to apply to more TIs than just Sheriff and Investigator.

[wozearly]

So, for example, the Disguiser switches the Mafioso (John) with a Sheriff (Deodat) and the Mafioso goes to kill a TP being watched by a Lookout. The Lookout will dutifully report that Deodat was the only visitor to the TP and, despite their protestations of innocence, Deodat will be lynched and flip Mafioso. If so, good grief that's a vicious ability to be able to spring on the Town.

I don't think Deodat would flip Mafioso, in this situation. It sounds to me like the Disguiser only disguises the Mafia member he selects; in this case, the Mafioso is disguised as a Sheriff, while the actual Sheriff would remain Sheriff.

So on the one hand that's good. The Disguiser remains reliant on the death of Mafia members to deploy its main ability, but can make an individual Mafia visit appear to have been conducted by someone else to the Lookout and so may be able to force a mislynch if played right - although this would confirm the presence of the Disguiser shortly afterwards. That makes the Disguiser more effective when used to disguise other Mafia roles than itself, provided there's a minimal level of co-ordination.

On the other hand, the more I was thinking about having the Disguiser actively switch the apparent roles the more I was growing to like that idea rather than my knee-jerk reaction of thinking it was too influential. Because actually, in most cases, the Mafia won't know if an investigative TI is planning to check a non-Mafia member, or who a Lookout is watching, so it won't interfere with the Framer - especially if the number of Disguises are limited.

Meanwhile, if the Lookout is sitting on a key role repeatedly to act as pseudo-TP, it opens up the possibility for them to be royally stitched up by a Disguiser. Which I don't think is actually a bad thing. Alternatively, Mafia knowing some unsuspecting person is currently disguised as Mafia creates excellent conditions for an opportunistic push to mislynch that won't automatically result in a Mafia member being killed for it the following day/night. That would help the Disguiser break free from needing a Mafia member to die at the correct moment to really deploy its ability.

Although arguably, that ability might sit better in the arsenal of the Framer.

[FrenchyTheSphee]

Forger change is really fantastic /support

Disguiser change is also amazing it doesn't seem too powerful to the point of changing it to 3 charges in my opinion, but we can see how it works in game to judge. /support

Framer needs more buffs than the semi permanent buff, you can check out the post that ore creeper made which has some good buffs on Framer. /Neutral

[BigSlug]

I'm very please that you've listened to the feedback. Framer needs more as pointed out, but these are all very good changes.

[DragonClaw66]

Still not enough for the Framer; if it doesn't receive the ability to trick other Town Investigatives, it will never be a good role. Forger change is good, though. I have no comment on the Disguiser change.

[Ezradekezra]

Still not enough for the Framer; if it doesn't receive the ability to trick other Town Investigatives it will never be a good role. Forger change is good, though. I have no comment on the Disguiser change.

Agreed with the Framer. It needs to be able to affect every TI to be useful enough. Here are my ideas:
- Trackers see the Framed person visit a random person
- Lookouts cannot see the Framed person visit
- Psychics are guaranteed to have one of the Framed people, selected at random, appear in their evil visions (If Alice Young, Samuel Sewall, and John Hathorne are all Framed, then one of the three will be selected at random to appear in the evil vision. The actual evil still appears.)
- Spies bugging the Framed target see a random message added onto the original ones. Spies cannot see who the Framer visits.