Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.
Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.
Achilles wrote:Investigator
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
Achilles wrote:These are the current changes we have planned for Disguiser, Framer and Investigator.
Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.
Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
Achilles wrote:Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:
The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.
2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.
We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.
The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
Brilliand wrote:What do you mean by "50% discovery"?
PyromonkeyGG wrote:People should remember that these changes will be in context to one another as well. The investigator change will also be in a world where framers will more often get value from their frames.
PyromonkeyGG wrote:People should remember that these changes will be in context to one another as well. The investigator change will also be in a world where framers will more often get value from their frames.
Achilles wrote:These are the current changes we have planned for Disguiser, Framer and Investigator.
Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.
[b]Good but a few things. The Disguiser should only be able to disguise the player as another player, instead of any role. The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]
Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
So its just a big nerf to the Sheriff overall, which is not needed, as Sheriff is already the weakest TI. I would suggest keeping temporary frames but make the framer able to affect all TIs in some way. In addition there should be a limited use ability to hide your visit from spies and potentially lookouts/trackers to maximize the power of the role.
Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:
The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.
2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.
We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.
The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
You want to turn investigator into a half-the-time Town Consigliere? TI should never be able to find exact roles- Investigator is fine as is. It allows sufficient claimspace for most evils while at the same time being powerful enough, and less swingy than Sheriff. Also new gamemodes don't even come around that often, and the first point just comes off as lazy honestly. It seems like a half-baked excuse for the devs to not have to balance rolelists which is dumb. As for the second point, its true to an extent, but you want to fix this by giving evils no claimspace at all? This seems kind of counterintuitive to me.
OreCreeper wrote:The Disguiser should only be able to disguise the player as another player, instead of any role.
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Would spy see framer visit his mafia members or would it be invisible to spy?
Achilles wrote:The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]
Brilliand wrote:HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Would spy see framer visit his mafia members or would it be invisible to spy?
I think this is answered by:Achilles wrote:The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
Achilles wrote:OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]
Players will start putting their role in every will to counter Disguiser. You would never be able to disguise a Town as another Town role.
Achilles wrote:Disguiser
Keeps existing functionality. Gains a special ability to disguise a player as another role the night they die. Disguiser will be able to choose any role from a unique UI menu to disguise the player as. Limit 1 (maybe 2) uses. The Disguiser will also learn the role of the dead player and the players last will shall appear empty.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Disguiser needs to die to affect the graveyard with misinformation. This will allow the Disguiser to have an impact without having to die. Learning the role of the player they disguise will open up claim space for the Mafia. Additionally the Mafia will be able to disguise a dead town role as a Mafia member or a Neutral role which could really confuse the Town.
Achilles wrote:Framer
Frames will now last until a Sheriff or Investigator checks the framed target. Framer can now frame his own teammates, making them appear not suspicious to the Sheriff and as a Framer to the Investigator.
Dev Comments:
Currently the Framer has to be very skilled or very lucky to frame the same target as the Sheriff or Investigator, especially on the first few nights where there are 10+ people to choose from. Having frames persist beyond 1 night will boost the power of the Framer significantly. Being able to choose their own Mafia teammates has obvious advantages, but one of the biggest will be that it can now confuse the Spy. The Spy will not be able to assume that everyone the Mafia visits is non-Mafia anymore.
Achilles wrote:Investigator
You may be wondering why we are looking to change the Investigator as it is not a role many people have issues with. Allow me to explain:
The Investigator has 2 main issues we are looking to address.
1) Great consideration has to be taken for every role list that is created to ensure that there is claim space for evil roles against the Investigator. This limits role list design potential and changes the strength of the Investigator depending on the role list. Having to design our role lists around 1 role in the game isn't great and has been on our list to try to improve for a long time now.
2) Evil roles are typically forced to fake claim one of the potential roles on the Investigator's feedback or risk being outed by an Investigator. This limits evil roles to only a few Town roles they can fake claim as. Also evil roles need to have the Investigator's feedback memorized or have a cheat sheet. This is very unfriendly for new players.
We sat down and tried to design a rework for the Investigator that solves these issues and opens up claim space for evil roles. We believe that the game will be more fun and have more deceptive potential if evil roles are not limited on their fake claims.
The changes:
The Investigator gathers more information about their target each night. After two nights they will learn the role of their target. This information is still effected by frames, hexes and douses. It will show Framer, HexMaster or Arsonist in those situations. Investigator does not have to visit the same target consecutively to learn their role. They can choose a different target each night and have previous roles at 50% discovery and then choose to check any of their previous targets.
Achilles wrote:OreCreeper wrote:[b]The Disguiser should not delete the player's will, since that removes a lot of the utility from this buff, since if someone has posted a will before, and when they die they have no will, it hints to a Disguiser. Keeping the will doesn't matter much, since if you turn your target into a mafia/neutral role, town will likely discredit them anyway. I get that cleaning wills can be helpful to open claimspace, but honestly that's janitor's job. Disguiser functions differently and serves a different purpose. This ability should allow mafia to do stuff like disguising a townie as mafia and then "outing them", or stuff like that.[/b]
Players will start putting their role in every will to counter Disguiser. You would never be able to disguise a Town as another Town role.
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