Let's Talk About Medium

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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby PatrykSzczescie » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:12 am

Reworking medium similar way as it works now but without dead speaking?

- Medium seances a dead town or cleaned/stoned player every night.
- Will learn seanced player's role if cleaned/stoned.
- If town, will see who the seanced player intended to visit/choose/jail every night.
- If town, will receive all the feedback from the seanced player.
- If Disguiser, will receive no feedback (similarly to non-visiting town roles).
- Can be roleblocked or controled.

Nerfs:
- cannot get info from more than one dead player every night,
- no insta-confirmation of multiple mediums,
- can be roleblocked/controled.

Buffs:
- dead disguiser can't fool mediums,
- less mess during the night in the chat.


LO wills, forgeries, stoned/cleaned players roles and intended visits are not affected by the rework. Fake mediums will have easier to fake their claims as they can read wills.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby CrimsonKatana » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:30 am

I don't think there's a problem with medium
There really was no light in my room and I really couldn't see my keyboard
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Matty89190 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 11:31 am

CrimsonKatana wrote:I don't think there's a problem with medium

This thread in a nutshell
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby zAmeliaz » Mon Aug 03, 2020 12:07 pm

I agree with everyone who says Med's pretty balanced and there's no need to rework it.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon Aug 03, 2020 4:15 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Perhaps the "gain information from the dead" ability could be used along with Medium's current ability, with people who have left the game
That way we can keep the Medium's current abilities, but if people leave there is a backup plan to get that information
Well townies don't really leave in ranked anyways.
Ranked is not the only mode that exists or matters
Your statement is meaningless
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:26 pm

Hmm... hard to say for medium. There's a few difficulties with medium that we would have to factor in.

Medium itself is fine in concept, however...

There's a few ways for medium to confirm themselves: 2 mediums, whispers from dead that an alive townie can confirm, etc

Medium also can instantly CC/Confirm any other medium claims provided there's people in the dead chat. In ranked gamemodes usually there is but in more casual modes (All any/custom in my experience) medium is weaker as people tend to leave when they die... so maybe a way to gain information from people that left could work without making it that much different or stronger?
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Brilliand » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:09 pm

HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Medium also can instantly CC/Confirm any other medium claims provided there's people in the dead chat. In ranked gamemodes usually there is but in more casual modes (All any/custom in my experience) medium is weaker as people tend to leave when they die... so maybe a way to gain information from people that left could work without making it that much different or stronger?


Can you comment on the rework idea that Achilles described in the OP, and the adjustments to it that I proposed?
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 8:27 pm

Brilliand wrote:
HAWAIIANpikachu wrote:Medium also can instantly CC/Confirm any other medium claims provided there's people in the dead chat. In ranked gamemodes usually there is but in more casual modes (All any/custom in my experience) medium is weaker as people tend to leave when they die... so maybe a way to gain information from people that left could work without making it that much different or stronger?


Can you comment on the rework idea that Achilles described in the OP, and the adjustments to it that I proposed?

I will in a bit
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:45 pm

Achilles ideas:
Medium will now seance with a dead role each night.
Medium will learn important information about the dead player (Up for design debate here but things such as):
role (I mean he already does this normally if they're active so this is fine. Maybe just alignment if we think it might need a nerf (TI/TS/NE/ETC))
who visited them (nope, would 100% confirm killing roles or make them in a worse spot.)
who the dead player visited each night (this is normally given in wills, maybe for town only and not mafia/Neutrals so it doesn't act like a spy)
night ability feedback from each night forwarding of TI info from each night would replace the lost last will when cleaned/stoned or if the dead player failed to leave an accurate will, also counters forged wills (possibly? This is another will thing... maybe not for cleaned/forged roles but I'm undecided as normal medium does this)

I think I agree with Brilliand's adjustments (although I didn't really see that many unless it was in another area)
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby BigSlug » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:58 am

I personally have not read every idea, so feel free to pick and choose whats good here, but here's my rough pitch for Medium based on this idea:

Medium [Town Support]
Attack: None Defense: None
Unique? No
Passive Traits: Has the ability to communicate with the dead at night, given certain circumstances.

Night Abilities:
-At night, select a soul to Seance. If successful, you will recieve a plethora of information from that soul. You will recieve their Role if it is not known, cause of death if unknown, and most importantly, a "Will" of their Day/Night Feedback and who they targeted as applicable. The interactions this has with certain roles may be difficult to figure out. Anything they would know themselves you are given. You are not told if they were, for example, doused. This "Seance Info" can be revisited at any time from their name in the graveyard with a Soul icon.
-Any players you have seanced, you can talk to in the dead chat any subsequent night if they are still in the game. This is to help keep some player interaction beyond the grave and have them help town figure out things that living players might have overlooked.
-Communing with an evil player works different. Their soul will resist and you will only gain information from the night they died. Certain roles also have unique interactions. Disguisers if they have a Disguise will yield no information. Neutral/Evil Roles that transform will have their previous role revealed to you even if that transformation wasn't on that night specifically. Such as if the second Mafioso died you would learn they were a Consort before their promotion. You will learn if the soul you examined was an Amnesiac. Or what a Vampire was before it turned. This is to help balance out the potential mass confirming of mafia targets even in a game without spies, the potential of learning several consigliere/witch/cl results as a Townie, or even learning of an immune that was hit several days prior but wasn't outed by spies. Evils and neutrals will still be able to talk with you after the seance however, seeing as they might as well. Deathchat gets lonely, might as well banter with the SK if theres no other souls to seance that night.

This could potentially be confusing with how many theoretical interactions and implications it has. There's no denying that. Condensing down so much information may be difficult and the team clearly sees that. However there was one thing I wanted to preserve, and that was the ability for the dead to interact directly with a living player in some form. Being dead n1 in ToS is unfortunate, and more unfortunate is that it's gotta happen to someone every game. A lot of people are going to die and from then on it's a watch and wait game. One thing I can't think of right now is how deadchat would work with only one player talking to medium. Would it be balanced to be able to seance one player and as long as said player can communicate well, you get pretty much all the information you need in one night? Not being able to talk to deadchat circumvents this, but if its removed entirely deadchat will be completely isolated moving forward.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:53 am

PatrykSzczescie wrote:...


Looks like we have the same idea. :)

BigSlug wrote:...


Ooh, a credible idea that's different from the rest. I'll just focus on the differences...

BigSlug wrote:-Any players you have seanced, you can talk to in the dead chat any subsequent night if they are still in the game. This is to help keep some player interaction beyond the grave and have them help town figure out things that living players might have overlooked.


This is less harmful than the current dead interaction, but only by one night. It still has all of the current issues with medium, most significantly the cross-confirming... just not on N2.

Also, it's debatable whether allowing the dead to help the living to figure things out is even a good thing. Arguably the Mafia should be able to use their nightkill to silence the smartest townies, making the daygame easier for evils.

BigSlug wrote:-Communing with an evil player works different. Their soul will resist and you will only gain information from the night they died. Certain roles also have unique interactions. Disguisers if they have a Disguise will yield no information. Neutral/Evil Roles that transform will have their previous role revealed to you even if that transformation wasn't on that night specifically. Such as if the second Mafioso died you would learn they were a Consort before their promotion. You will learn if the soul you examined was an Amnesiac. Or what a Vampire was before it turned.


Doesn't seem like a Vampire/Mafioso's current role is something the Medium should be getting, since I can't see the Vampire/Mafioso being cooperative about that unless they're sure it doesn't matter - for good reason, since it could allow the Town to bring Process of Elimination to bear against Vampires, or nullify the deception achieved by a Mafia Deception-turned-Mafioso.

Learning the original role of an Amnesiac-turned-Townie would make sense, though, as that person is now a Townie and would be happy to give the Medium accurate information. I like to think that that information would be included in the night feedback log, rather than being its own special feature.

BigSlug wrote:Evils and neutrals will still be able to talk with you after the seance however, seeing as they might as well. Deathchat gets lonely, might as well banter with the SK if theres no other souls to seance that night.


With more than two factions in the game, there's always the chance that one of the "evils" in the graveyard might decide to assist the Town against a rival evil... in which case this winds up having all the same problems as dead chat with a Townie.

And if the evil you chat with is part of the only credible threat to the Town, then of course there's no reason for them to tell you the truth or for you to believe them, so the whole thing is a no-op.

I'm not sure we can really be making decisions based on "Deathchat gets lonely", since on the one hand games without a Medium aren't that rare, and on the other hand the dead SK is free to leave if he gets bored.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby oddluck » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:22 am

Changing Medium because "dead players leave" is ridiculous, evils leave all the time and the remaining ones just have to deal with it

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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Matty89190 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:54 am

While I prefer BigSlug's idea, it still has the same issue as the original proposed rework: it turns Medium into a role of just parroting a nightly info dump. There is little to know skill, or play variety, involved. I'm not saying med as it currently is has a particularly high skill ceiling, but it at least has to be played a bit more actively.

The fact that these reworks turn it into a more boring role, combined with the fact med is fine as it is, lead me back to what I can't stress enough: med does not need to be changed.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby BigSlug » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:31 am

All fair points though i'm not sure I agree. Medium is such a variable role in use compared to consistent roles like Sheriff. It's RNG essentially because you can't count on the dead player to stay, and if they don't you can't do anything. Sometimes a player isn't paying attention/afk and they don't give you their cleaned role or their night results. It's either you get amazing townies who are on top of it, you get roles and wills and they help other mediums give their numbers to help confirm everyone.

Although I don't know how good of a fix this is for my talking to dead players idea, perhaps it could be a seperate day ability called "Commune" which can only be used once per person/per game, and communing will bring you into a 1 on 1 chat with the dead player that night, temporarily removing them from the grave chat to talk to medium. This would remove that confirmability issue almost entirely, while still keeping it as a game mechanic. I don't think communing would roleblock your seancing of players each night, seeing as that would kind of really suck.

I think BMG and the players both have good points on each side of this debate, and i'm not sure theres really a right answer.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby SwampRabbit » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:03 am

I am REALLY confused on this thread. What is the reason for changing medium at all? It is a useful but far from overpowering role. It seems that you want to remove the mediums ability to talk to dead players because in All Any dead people leave???

If you want to add it as an option that a medium can choose DURING THE DAY to EITHER talk with dead OR seance one dead, I would not object to that. But changing it to seance one dead just because dead leave in ONE game mode--the one game mode where balance does NOT matter anyway--i have to say that seems absurd.

Same for removing medium's ability to seance a living player or talk to the dead.

Medium is probably the MOST BALANCED role as is. I see no reason to change it at all. A better way to deal with the leavers--is to deal with the leavers and allow them to be suspended or banned for leaving.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:37 am

SwampRabbit wrote:I am REALLY confused on this thread. What is the reason for changing medium at all? It is a useful but far from overpowering role. It seems that you want to remove the mediums ability to talk to dead players because in All Any dead people leave???

If you want to add it as an option that a medium can choose DURING THE DAY to EITHER talk with dead OR seance one dead, I would not object to that. But changing it to seance one dead just because dead leave in ONE game mode--the one game mode where balance does NOT matter anyway--i have to say that seems absurd.

Same for removing medium's ability to seance a living player or talk to the dead.

Medium is probably the MOST BALANCED role as is. I see no reason to change it at all. A better way to deal with the leavers--is to deal with the leavers and allow them to be suspended or banned for leaving.
The reason to change Medium is because its ability is highly dependent on cooperation from other people (who have incentive to not cooperate, no less). As much as people mock it, that problem is real and makes Medium a swingy role in practice based on things completely outside the Medium's control. If people start leaving when they die, the Medium is useless as shit. If they actively discuss the game and help out, the Medium is a strong role.

I do agree that Medium's current abilities are nice, but I also think there should be a backup plan for situations when people who die leave. Achilles's proposal could suit the role of being that backup plan perfectly (sans the LO-for-dead thing). Anything a dead person who left should have told you would be given to you, so that information doesn't leave when they do. But you can still just talk to whichever dead players decided to stick around, as usual. Fixing the problem without changing Medium's abilities too much.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Brilliand » Tue Aug 04, 2020 11:50 am

SwampRabbit wrote:What is the reason for changing medium at all?


There are several, but the easiest one to justify is the cross-confirmation of multiple Mediums. That's clearly a bad thing, and I'm eager to change the Medium to a version that can't do that (at least not quickly).

Have a look at orangeandblack5's thread about the Medium for the rest of the reasons.

SwampRabbit wrote:All Any ... the one game mode where balance does NOT matter anyway


Please stop saying this.

All Any has fun>balance, it's true, but balance affects fun. Balance definitely matters there.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:01 pm

I feel like the best way to fix the problem of people without changing the Medium's abilities is to alert dead townies of a Medium's presence after they die. A message like "You feel spiritual power emanating from one of the houses. There must be a Medium in this town!" would surely keep anyone with useful information around long enough to share it, right? Changing the role to just be a nightly info dump would make it much less fun, and would also would change the Medium into more of a TI role than a TS role.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:34 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Perhaps the "gain information from the dead" ability could be used along with Medium's current ability, with people who have left the game
That way we can keep the Medium's current abilities, but if people leave there is a backup plan to get that information
Well townies don't really leave in ranked anyways.
Ranked is not the only mode that exists or matters
Your statement is meaningless

All balance changes should be centered around Ranked.

Also doesn't this change just make medium a discount retributionist? lol

Edit: also idk if I'm missing something but doesn't the "seeing visitors" mechanic immediately out the killer?
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby SwampRabbit » Tue Aug 04, 2020 1:43 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Perhaps the "gain information from the dead" ability could be used along with Medium's current ability, with people who have left the game
That way we can keep the Medium's current abilities, but if people leave there is a backup plan to get that information
Well townies don't really leave in ranked anyways.
Ranked is not the only mode that exists or matters
Your statement is meaningless

All balance changes should be centered around Ranked.

Also doesn't this change just make medium a discount retributionist? lol

Edit: also idk if I'm missing something but doesn't the "seeing visitors" mechanic immediately out the killer?



EXACTLY! And when changes to retri were being discussed, achilles threw out the idea of allowing retri to talk to the person that was being reanimated but decided against it because it was encroaching on the medium's role, and now they want to erase the medium's ability to do that as well.

Mediums do a hella of a lot more than get a will from a dead TI. The dead townies communicate information about things that living town did not notice. Dead evil manipulate the medium.

ALSO @ACHILLES..removing the ability of a medium to talk to the dead not only nerfs the medium--a ROLE THAT NEEDS NO NERFING--it also removes the dead evil's ability to lie to and manipulate the medium. I can't even count the number of times mafia cleans their own player thanks to transporters. You are nerfing mafia by not letting them claim to be a certain town role. Instead a seance from a medium would tell them that the consort is cleaned or a vamp is cleaned, etc.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby kiromishiro21 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:15 pm

I think the medium is a balanced role but it is very affected when the dead don't wait and leave the game before the start of the night.
I think the medium should have the ability to see the will of the dead just as the janitor does. The medium must maintain its ability to speak to dead people at night .And also the medium must have the power to speak to players who are still alive while he is dead.
Last edited by kiromishiro21 on Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby SwampRabbit » Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:40 pm

Does anyone else see the dichotomy in these posts?

There are two type of respondents. Those who play the game a lot who see this as the unnecessary NERFING of a medium that it is.

And, those who play an occasional AA game who think that removing the medium's ability to talk to the dead is a BUFF that might be too powerful.

If the goal is to stop communication between the dead and the medium, then just remove the medium. Changing it to a useless role is not helpful to the game.

I play all games modes (except dracula palace because it is boring af). The only mode where dead people flee is AA.

Either (1) leave medium alone because it is already balanced; (2) add the daytime Option to allow a medium to seance 1 dead player rather than talk to the dead (this would placate the occasional AA players who are far more active on this forum than they are in the game): or (3) remove the medium completely from the game.
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:09 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Perhaps the "gain information from the dead" ability could be used along with Medium's current ability, with people who have left the game
That way we can keep the Medium's current abilities, but if people leave there is a backup plan to get that information
Well townies don't really leave in ranked anyways.
Ranked is not the only mode that exists or matters
Your statement is meaningless
All balance changes should be centered around Ranked.

Also doesn't this change just make medium a discount retributionist? lol

Edit: also idk if I'm missing something but doesn't the "seeing visitors" mechanic immediately out the killer?
Leaving a balance problem to sit there unsolved because it's less prevalent in Ranked is not a good idea
Even if most balance changes should revolve around Ranked, there are balance problems that either don't or only tangentially affect the mode. Those problems still deserve solving because at the end of the day, Town of Salem is not just its Ranked mode
The problem with Medium can be fixed without hurting Ranked players very much, so we should still do it

What I want and what Achilles is proposing are not exactly the same: What I want is for Achilles's "gather information from the dead" ability (minus the ability to see visits on the dead player) to be added as a supplement to Medium's current ability, for use on dead people who have left the game. That way, we can satisfy the people who like Medium how it is, without leaving the very real problem of Medium depending on people not leaving when they die (which is extremely common in every mode except Ranked) to just fester.

Yeah I don't like the "seeing visitors" thing either, for that reason, so no arguments there
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby HAWAIIANpikachu » Tue Aug 04, 2020 4:50 pm

I don't really see the problem if medium has a backup plan in case the person leaves (I see a lot of leavers in my games and I'm not talking about AA). There's nothing against adding in a mechanic like this. We can tweak things as needed for evils to allow them to do some deception as well to trick the medium. Disguiser appearing as the same role they're disguised as, cleaned evils getting to pick what they appear as, etc
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Re: Let's Talk About Medium

Postby BlueSkyGirl » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:46 pm

I think medium is just right as it is and I really hope you will reconsider. In particular, the medium's ability to talk to the graveyard is what it makes so unique and interesting to play so please do not take that away. A medium keeps the game more interesting for all those who die early and encourages them to pay attention and stay invested in the game since they can speak through a medium. You can still participate and possibly impact the game's outcome. And yet, this ability also opens up for fake medium claims to mess with the town. I really do agree with the others posting here that medium is just about a perfectly balanced role. Please no medium changes!
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