Why I only play NK and NE

[Randyxpxp]

This thread’s title is slightly misleading, as I do make a rare exception for godfather (with a full mafia), and sometimes jailor and veteran. However, after over 1000 games, I’ve recently decided to only play NK and NE on principle, with rare exceptions. This is a significant decision for me in this game, as before this, I would frequently play mafia, vampire, NB, and a number of town roles. Even though I would often find myself in cahoots with less than optimal players, I tried to find a way to enjoy the roles, and sometimes try different strategies. As time went on though, I became increasingly disappointed by the number of errors and misobservations my teammates would make, whether fellow town, mafia, or vampires. I watched as time and time again, my chances to win hinged upon inattentive, unstrategic, or outright stupid town, mafia, or vampires who rarely seemed to observe the game as closely as I would. As town, much of this frustration originated from TP/LO who either refused to be on me or simply didn’t see me request TP/LO in the first place. Many town also don’t seem very perceptive in regards to who’s evil and who’s town. As mafia, it would involve anything from MK who didn’t realize who the jailor is to RM who visited obvious or known veterans to mafia who found immunes but never pushed or outed them. As vampire, the main errors I observed were the lack of useful claims and the failure to realize when certain targets were immune, only to attack them and waste a night. Errors varied widely and eventually there came a point when I realized that as town, mafia, or vampire in All Any, a significant degree of my chances to win depend upon how knowledgeable and tactical members of my faction are. Given how many mistakes teammates make on a regular basis, I decided I would no longer play town, mafia, or vampire generally, nor would I play amnesiac or survivor given my negative experiences with those roles. As a matter of principle now, the only roles I really play are serial killer, executioner, witch, jester, and werewolf, with rare exceptions for godfather, jailor, and veteran if I feel like it.

As NK or NE, you can more-so play your own game and operate independently of other players. You can still depend on other players for your win to some extent, but the degree and type of dependence is significantly lesser, even to the extent that you may not quite depend on anyone else whatsoever. This is especially applicable to NK, who can kill off everyone without question, whereas executioners must get their targets lynched, jesters must get themselves lynched, and witches depend on evils to a larger extent to win. Even as NE though, you can sort of play your own game, and you have no innate teammates whom you depend on for a win. Once you get your win as exe, you can do whatever you like. Once you get lynched as jester, you’ve already won and have no need for anyone else. Once you’ve rid of enough town as witch, you’re more than likely in a safe spot to secure a witch win. As NK, you can kill anyone you like for any reason you like, and while NE and NB can be useful to you, you don’t necessarily need them to win, and you may even kill them too. For me, the freedoms and abilities of NK and NE are worlds apart from the convoluted, cooperation-centered dynamics of town, mafia, and vampires, not to mention the fact that all three NK have night defense, as do two out of three NE. In addition, town are theoretically more likely to lynch mafia than NE, especially when mafia is outed, and many towns will lynch mafia over NK as well, even outed NK. Regardless of this though, I’m just tired of being so dependent on other players to win, and watching as they make obvious mistakes, poorly defend themselves, and otherwise fail to do what is necessary to win. Some of my negative experiences on Town of Salem have truthfully been so astoundingly unbelievable that it’s honestly hard for me to understand how I could be of the same species as these people. For me personally, the best experience Town of Salem has to offer is as NK or NE in AA, where the role list isn’t strictly defined and you can basically play your own game. I simply can’t tolerate watching a win crumble because of some idiot’s lack of knowledge or lack of skill anymore. I’m not talking about posting a decent will and people just don’t believe you. I’m talking about some really simple, really obvious mistakes that some players just can’t seem to avoid making on a regular basis despite the exceptionally basic logic that much of this game involves on a fundamental level. I deeply hope that many players stop playing this game altogether, as it’s clearly too complicated for them and they seem very unlikely to ever significantly improve in my evaluation. Some people are just stupid and it is what it is. Think whatever you want about me and my attitude but if you’ve seen what I’ve seen in this game, you should understand exactly why I feel the way I do about the player base. For that matter, I think there are a number of things BMG could do to improve the overall game-relevant intelligence of its player base and weed out players who are too dumb to put 2 and 2 together. If it was up to me, a lot of these players would either be banned or would never be able to play the game in the first place because they couldn’t pass a basic logic test to demonstrate their cognizance.

[MysticMismagius]

Wait, how do you... not play certain roles? Unless you have the luck of an absolute god, you're going to get the roles you don't want eventually even if you put scrolls on. If you're leaving or gamethrowing every time you get a role you don't want to play as, you're worse than the stupid people you wish to see removed from the game.

[Randyxpxp]

Wait, how do you... not play certain roles? Unless you have the luck of an absolute god, you're going to get the roles you don't want eventually even if you put scrolls on. If you're leaving or gamethrowing every time you get a role you don't want to play as, you're worse than the stupid people you wish to see removed from the game.

If the player base wasn't exceptionally dumb, perhaps I wouldn't refuse to play as many roles. However, I also simply don't like certain roles, and I don't feel like standing around trying to survive an All Any game as e.g. a medium while a bunch of mindless town get sheeped by evils. Many roles just don't interest me anymore. I don't like leavers either but I accept it in All Any because it's a casual mode and I feel it's centered more-so around amusement, playing a role you actually enjoy, which is one reason scrolls are active. Ranked is structured such that if you want to climb elo, you can't just leave because you don't like a role, and I respect that and wouldn't leave a Ranked game if I wanted to climb elo. I don't play Ranked though for my own reasons, and I just refuse to endure the sheer misery that is many town and even mafia/vamp AA games only to see some blockhead fail to make a basic observation to get the win. I don't think I'm worse than these people, honestly. I don't play these roles both because of these people and because I don't like the roles. These people play these roles and make the game even worse than it would be if they just left the game altogether. But that's just me.

[GrumpyGoomba]

K

[kyuss420]

IMO from 0-300 games played, majority of people are going to grasp strategies for 2-4 town roles. From 300 - 600 they will grasp another town role or 3 and learn some basic scumreading, like checking the quiet guy who probly doesnt know his evil role, or looking at who voted inno on the mafia. At 1000 games, maybe they have grasped the strategy of mafia... kill order, who to RB as consort, who to check as consig (ya know, why check a revealed sheriff??), what to claim etc. Maybe they have also learnt how a role list works, and can match a claim to role. Maybe they can even count off the RTs as they claim/die and can figure from that which claims cant be true.

I think it takes 1000+ games before people even start to think about strategy in terms of mafia, and there lies the problem. You wont win that often as maf if you are up against a pro town and dont know what to do, and youre not gonna be pro at town, unless you know what mafia has to do to win....and what makes a pro town? Townies who not only know how to utilise their role, but also know how to play as mafia, and use their roles to counter strategies that mafia use.

So even though you see the playerbase as ''dumb'' most of them havent even clocked up 400 games yet. Some of them just assume every claim is probably a lie. Some of them think the point of the game is to live to the end, so they hide early information that would benefit their faction

[MysticMismagius]

Wait, how do you... not play certain roles? Unless you have the luck of an absolute god, you're going to get the roles you don't want eventually even if you put scrolls on. If you're leaving or gamethrowing every time you get a role you don't want to play as, you're worse than the stupid people you wish to see removed from the game.

If the player base wasn't exceptionally dumb, perhaps I wouldn't refuse to play as many roles. However, I also simply don't like certain roles, and I don't feel like standing around trying to survive an All Any game as e.g. a medium while a bunch of mindless town get sheeped by evils. Many roles just don't interest me anymore. I don't like leavers either but I accept it in All Any because it's a casual mode and I feel it's centered more-so around amusement, playing a role you actually enjoy, which is one reason scrolls are active. Ranked is structured such that if you want to climb elo, you can't just leave because you don't like a role, and I respect that and wouldn't leave a Ranked game if I wanted to climb elo. I don't play Ranked though for my own reasons, and I just refuse to endure the sheer misery that is many town and even mafia/vamp AA games only to see some blockhead fail to make a basic observation to get the win. I don't think I'm worse than these people, honestly. I don't play these roles both because of these people and because I don't like the roles. These people play these roles and make the game even worse than it would be if they just left the game altogether. But that's just me.

You’re dodging the question. How do you just “not play” certain roles? Don’t give me an essay, just tell me straight how you avoid playing them.

[StlnSP]

thanks kanye, very cool!

[Randyxpxp]

IMO from 0-300 games played, majority of people are going to grasp strategies for 2-4 town roles. From 300 - 600 they will grasp another town role or 3 and learn some basic scumreading, like checking the quiet guy who probly doesnt know his evil role, or looking at who voted inno on the mafia. At 1000 games, maybe they have grasped the strategy of mafia... kill order, who to RB as consort, who to check as consig (ya know, why check a revealed sheriff??), what to claim etc. Maybe they have also learnt how a role list works, and can match a claim to role. Maybe they can even count off the RTs as they claim/die and can figure from that which claims cant be true.

I think it takes 1000+ games before people even start to think about strategy in terms of mafia, and there lies the problem. You wont win that often as maf if you are up against a pro town and dont know what to do, and youre not gonna be pro at town, unless you know what mafia has to do to win....and what makes a pro town? Townies who not only know how to utilise their role, but also know how to play as mafia, and use their roles to counter strategies that mafia use.

So even though you see the playerbase as ''dumb'' most of them havent even clocked up 400 games yet. Some of them just assume every claim is probably a lie. Some of them think the point of the game is to live to the end, so they hide early information that would benefit their faction

I think that after 50-100 wins, a player should grasp the broad fundamentals of this game, with some natural room for improvement. I don't think the main issue is the number of games played but the players themselves, their mentalities, their intelligence levels, their ages, their personalities. For a lot of players, ToS doesn't really suit them strategically. They might play it for fun, and that's fine, but the game seems far too complicated and nebulous for them. Part of the reason this game is complex is because of the sheer number of people in a town, the variety of roles, true claims, and fake claims in play, and other such factors that can create an informational overload. At the end of the day, regardless of the exact reasons for the nature of the player base, town, mafia, and vampire are generally less pleasurable experiences for me than more independent roles. I feel more stressed as serial killer than as mafia in a full mafia, but I also depend much less on other players, who very frequently make obvious mistakes.

[Randyxpxp]

Wait, how do you... not play certain roles? Unless you have the luck of an absolute god, you're going to get the roles you don't want eventually even if you put scrolls on. If you're leaving or gamethrowing every time you get a role you don't want to play as, you're worse than the stupid people you wish to see removed from the game.

If the player base wasn't exceptionally dumb, perhaps I wouldn't refuse to play as many roles. However, I also simply don't like certain roles, and I don't feel like standing around trying to survive an All Any game as e.g. a medium while a bunch of mindless town get sheeped by evils. Many roles just don't interest me anymore. I don't like leavers either but I accept it in All Any because it's a casual mode and I feel it's centered more-so around amusement, playing a role you actually enjoy, which is one reason scrolls are active. Ranked is structured such that if you want to climb elo, you can't just leave because you don't like a role, and I respect that and wouldn't leave a Ranked game if I wanted to climb elo. I don't play Ranked though for my own reasons, and I just refuse to endure the sheer misery that is many town and even mafia/vamp AA games only to see some blockhead fail to make a basic observation to get the win. I don't think I'm worse than these people, honestly. I don't play these roles both because of these people and because I don't like the roles. These people play these roles and make the game even worse than it would be if they just left the game altogether. But that's just me.

You’re dodging the question. How do you just “not play” certain roles? Don’t give me an essay, just tell me straight how you avoid playing them.

How do you think I avoid playing them? There's only one way to do that.

[MysticMismagius]

So you leave every time you get a role you don’t like? Yeah, you’re fucking terrible. You ruin the game for everyone else by leaving it D1. Even in “casual” game modes. Just because there’s no ELO at stake doesn’t mean other games are worth less than Ranked games. This game is plagued with leavers because of people exactly like you. Fuck you and everyone who does what you do.

[Kaladef]

I don't know how to take this one honestly. All we can do is hope this dude gets banned on what are probably multiple accounts if they're leaving every game they get a role they don't like. Like... I hate getting ret because I mostly play ranked and I'm not allowed to just not use my ability, but I stick through and just watch youtube in another tab to make up for the handicap I placed on evils and vote every now and again for appearances but I at least try not to leave unless i actually need to. Med, Sheriff, Forger and Ret are probably the most boring roles in the game just because you're in limbo as far as being useful or in ret's case, you're OP and you're just a guaranteed vote with nothing fun to do beyond rezzing someone.

My advice for you "Person of Monumental Intellect" is just play the damn game, grind ranked if you're so above everyone else in the casual modes. Slumming in classic/all any for your 1000+ games and saying town is too dumb to keep up with you doesn't mean much, there are a lot of new players filtering through and as was previously mentioned, there's a decent learning curve to deal with prior to knowing all the ins and outs of the game. Honestly, just play ranked until you're in master and you can join the rest of the ranked crew in complaining about how OP town is and actually feeling good about winning as NE/NK/Maf. Or god forbid those super close games where the maf actually knows how to play and you come back from them running the show and actually win (without ret, that shits a disgusting crutch).

Basically do more than you are now and you might find more enjoyment with the game, roleplaying in ranked and trolling your team in creative ways is much more fun than getting silent lynched for being the voice of reason in any other mode, so maybe move in that direction instead of ruining games for a bunch of other people.

[Descender]

IMO from 0-300 games played, majority of people are going to grasp strategies for 2-4 town roles. From 300 - 600 they will grasp another town role or 3 and learn some basic scumreading, like checking the quiet guy who probly doesnt know his evil role, or looking at who voted inno on the mafia. At 1000 games, maybe they have grasped the strategy of mafia... kill order, who to RB as consort, who to check as consig (ya know, why check a revealed sheriff??), what to claim etc. Maybe they have also learnt how a role list works, and can match a claim to role. Maybe they can even count off the RTs as they claim/die and can figure from that which claims cant be true.

I think it takes 1000+ games before people even start to think about strategy in terms of mafia, and there lies the problem. You wont win that often as maf if you are up against a pro town and dont know what to do, and youre not gonna be pro at town, unless you know what mafia has to do to win....and what makes a pro town? Townies who not only know how to utilise their role, but also know how to play as mafia, and use their roles to counter strategies that mafia use.

So even though you see the playerbase as ''dumb'' most of them havent even clocked up 400 games yet. Some of them just assume every claim is probably a lie. Some of them think the point of the game is to live to the end, so they hide early information that would benefit their faction

400 here.
this is stupid.
if it takes more than 1000 games to use strats as mafia you shouldnt be playing mafia.
tos has the worst players out of any mafia game, making it fairly easy to scumread d1. ive been a solid player since 150 games, and then i checked out other mafia games.
Nope, here people brute force and play non stop.
in conclusion
there are three types of players in tos
shit
good shit
fucklord cult master who is good but prefers the flames

[DestructionII]

K

[Villagerlover]

If you get a role that you don't like playing, then tough luck.
But don't just leave/gamethrow every single time you get something non-NK or non-NE....you're like the exact reason why games are ruined. Ya might as well just not play the game if you're gonna ruin it for everyone else.

[Randyxpxp]

So you leave every time you get a role you don’t like? Yeah, you’re fucking terrible. You ruin the game for everyone else by leaving it D1. Even in “casual” game modes. Just because there’s no ELO at stake doesn’t mean other games are worth less than Ranked games. This game is plagued with leavers because of people exactly like you. Fuck you and everyone who does what you do.

Fuck you too. If the player base wasn't shit I'd probably play other roles more often. I'm glad to let town, mafia, and vampires lose, as they're probably going to lose anyway with how many idiots there are. I play this game to enjoy myself, not to conform to some arbitrary standard like your own. I don't enjoy myself as most roles because of the nature of the roles and the nature of the players within those factions. I don't give two shits about people crying about leavers in All Any. As I said, I don't leave in Ranked, but All Any is a casual game mode and I'm not going to sit there and try to carry the town or my mafia or whatever when I'm playing with what are possibly literal twelve year-olds.

[Randyxpxp]

I don't know how to take this one honestly. All we can do is hope this dude gets banned on what are probably multiple accounts if they're leaving every game they get a role they don't like. Like... I hate getting ret because I mostly play ranked and I'm not allowed to just not use my ability, but I stick through and just watch youtube in another tab to make up for the handicap I placed on evils and vote every now and again for appearances but I at least try not to leave unless i actually need to. Med, Sheriff, Forger and Ret are probably the most boring roles in the game just because you're in limbo as far as being useful or in ret's case, you're OP and you're just a guaranteed vote with nothing fun to do beyond rezzing someone.

My advice for you "Person of Monumental Intellect" is just play the damn game, grind ranked if you're so above everyone else in the casual modes. Slumming in classic/all any for your 1000+ games and saying town is too dumb to keep up with you doesn't mean much, there are a lot of new players filtering through and as was previously mentioned, there's a decent learning curve to deal with prior to knowing all the ins and outs of the game. Honestly, just play ranked until you're in master and you can join the rest of the ranked crew in complaining about how OP town is and actually feeling good about winning as NE/NK/Maf. Or god forbid those super close games where the maf actually knows how to play and you come back from them running the show and actually win (without ret, that shits a disgusting crutch).

Basically do more than you are now and you might find more enjoyment with the game, roleplaying in ranked and trolling your team in creative ways is much more fun than getting silent lynched for being the voice of reason in any other mode, so maybe move in that direction instead of ruining games for a bunch of other people.

Ranked is profoundly boring and over-structured to me. I've made this clear repeatedly and I will not play Ranked. I enjoy All Any. I simply don't enjoy some of the players who play it. I would rather a lot of them not play the game altogether, because they're clearly too stupid to ever improve very much.

[Randyxpxp]

If you get a role that you don't like playing, then tough luck.
But don't just leave/gamethrow every single time you get something non-NK or non-NE....you're like the exact reason why games are ruined. Ya might as well just not play the game if you're gonna ruin it for everyone else.

The game is already ruined by the players I described. They're a worse plague upon All Any than the random leavers like me or others.

[Villagerlover]

If you get a role that you don't like playing, then tough luck.
But don't just leave/gamethrow every single time you get something non-NK or non-NE....you're like the exact reason why games are ruined. Ya might as well just not play the game if you're gonna ruin it for everyone else.

The game is already ruined by the players I described. They're a worse plague upon All Any than the random leavers like me or others.

"The game is already trash so why not trash it more"

Yeah just keep goin' on with that logic...

[GrumpyGoomba]

Well this numbskull will be banned soon enough.

[lalasex]

honestly

you are arrogant asf