The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Which of these roles do you actually like?

Tracker
59
17%
Ambusher
36
10%
Crusader
25
7%
Trapper
34
10%
Mystery Role
28
8%
Hypnotist
29
8%
Pirate
41
12%
Psychic
27
8%
Guardian Angel
36
10%
Plaguebearer
40
11%
 
Total votes : 355

Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby wozearly » Mon May 29, 2017 6:37 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:The suggestion I think would be best for GA is that they have to ensure the faction of their target's killer loses if they die. So, say your target is shot by a Vigilante, you have to make sure Town loses. Lynched? I'd probably make it the same, just to keep it simple. WW kills them? You have to make sure WW loses, etc. Fallen Angel would be a cool name, no?


It's a nice idea, but riddled with issues.

As has already been stated, who kills someone isn't definite. People can be killed by multiple factions, or commit suicide, or die to vigi/jester guilt. Lynching is impossible to determine - lynches can occur when factions combine votes (so no one faction has majority of guilty votes), and it's not really practical for the game to 'know' who led the lynch.

GA could just as easily be shafted by this type of mechanic as helped. Also, it incentives metagaming - getting your target tactically killed by certain factions at critical moments will give you a virtually guaranteed win under your secondary win conditions. Even if this is technically gamethrowing, it would be very difficult to argue you weren't playing your role correctly to win given that those secondary win conditions exist.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Tue May 30, 2017 10:56 am

Why GA sucks
I played a lot of VIP mode yesterday, and I can tell you that the GA is useless. On one game, the Potion Master was the target, and they were killed N1 by a Crusader. After that, the former GA announced that they became a Survivor. How was the GA supposed to know when the target will be attacked, especially in a gamemode filled with killing roles.

On another, there was a game where the target, who was a Coven, was a huge spammer, and he kept saying that he was the VIP. Eventually, people got suspicious of him, but the GA used the heal to save them from getting lynched. The next night, Covens got no kills, and the following day, Town easily lynched him and won the game.

As you can see, the GA will either solidify Town's lead, or get destroyed by Town. Speaking of VIP mode, it's extremely unbalanced; out of all the games I played, only one was a Coven victory, and that was because the Crusader got RB'd by a Pirate. So let me say this one last time: the GA is a horrible role, and so is everyone that actually supports it.
--
As for the GA 'fix' idea mentioned early in this post, its flaws have already been pointed out by others, and I really don't think it would work, though I do have a GA idea of my own that I may post in the future.

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Kikigiri » Tue May 30, 2017 3:57 pm

Tigerleap wrote:Speaking of votes, it seems like there are people voting for all 10 roles. I know that different people have different opinions, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out there's at least one bad role among these. Would anyone care to explain why the Hypnotist--which everyone seems to hate--is one of the top roles? I do agree that Kirize's Drug Dealer is a good role idea, but I do not think that the Hypnotist in its current state is anywhere near as good as the original.
I voted for every role except Pirate, because I feel that the most important thing is making sure Pirate comes in last. The other roles have some serious problems, but I can see what they were aiming for. The basic idea of Pirate is horrific - getting rid of it completely is vastly more important than anything else we could push for.

Whereas, say, obviously the random Hypnotist is a horrible implementation, but I don't want it removed entirely.

Psychic- this role is at this point blatantly overpowered. I honestly don't know what BMG was smoking when they made this role; it breaks all the "laws" of To$ roles. It uses RNG not once, but twice--and on every single turn--and it auto-confirms Town members. It's just OP that you can know that at least one of three players is evil, and keep getting information of this sort every other night. If two of the players for any reason die and aren't scums, then the last scum is screwed just because they had bad luck. The only weakness of this role is that it's extremely easy to fake, but that's about it. Imo, this role shouldn't get nerfed; it should get scrapped. There is no possible change to this role that could make it non-RNG, so the only solution is a full-on rework.
I've had a lot of fun faking Psychic as an Executioner. It's incredibly easy to manipulate your results to narrow in on your target without being obvious, and very hard for people to disprove you. Plus, since it's slightly oblique rather than allowing a direct accusation, people are less likely to suspect you.

That said, yeah, it has problems. One suggestion I had a while back was to make it some sort of pick-three Sheriff - each night, you select three targets instead of just one, and are told if any of those three are non-NS (you don't visit them, or you'd be hilariously vulnerable to WWs, Vets, and Medusas.) You must pick exactly three or you don't act that night, and you can't select yourself or a revealed Mayor. You can pick other confirmed Town, but even if you manage to do that (which requires two definitely-confirmed Town) you're just giving yourself the option to act as a Sheriff, which is hardly OP - and you're extremely vulnerable to Framers, who can contaminate your entire results if they figure out that you're using a particular confirmed Town to narrow things down.

...hmm, that would be a bit OP if you hit three NS, so I'd add two more rules: First, Jesters read as evil to you. Second, if you act on a particular night, you can't act the next night. (Note that you can deliberately skip a night to start investigating on full moon nights if you want to try and catch a WW.)
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Tue May 30, 2017 4:22 pm

@Kikigiri

Unfortunately, I can't really agree with your Psychic change. I think that it would still be a bit OP because it can easily confirm Townies. I know that GF and a few other evils would appear as NS, but for the most part, the evils appear as non-NS. This means that if you by any chance pick three Townies, they will all be semi-confirmed as Town, which is ridiculously OP. And this result can't even be hijacked by Framers.

You could also pick a confirmed Townie with two other Townies. If none of them are non-NS, you've got yourself two more confirmed Townies. If you get that one of them isn't NS, then you have a 50-50 chance of finding a scum.

The only weakness I see to this role is the Framer, and I do see how a Framer could screw over the entire results list, but Framer likely wouldn't pick a confirmed Townie, making it unlikely (though possible) that the results would be screwed over.

As for the Jesters, well, you can still know that they are scums, and if someone seems like they may be a Jester, the task would be left to a Jailor or Vigi.

Overall, I don't think that adding more weaknesses to your idea would make it better. Imo, I don't think there's any way to fix the Psychic. However, your idea is at least better than the current Psychic, since it isn't RNG.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

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What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Tue May 30, 2017 4:24 pm

wozearly wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:The suggestion I think would be best for GA is that they have to ensure the faction of their target's killer loses if they die. So, say your target is shot by a Vigilante, you have to make sure Town loses. Lynched? I'd probably make it the same, just to keep it simple. WW kills them? You have to make sure WW loses, etc. Fallen Angel would be a cool name, no?


It's a nice idea, but riddled with issues.

As has already been stated, who kills someone isn't definite. People can be killed by multiple factions, or commit suicide, or die to vigi/jester guilt. Lynching is impossible to determine - lynches can occur when factions combine votes (so no one faction has majority of guilty votes), and it's not really practical for the game to 'know' who led the lynch.

GA could just as easily be shafted by this type of mechanic as helped. Also, it incentives metagaming - getting your target tactically killed by certain factions at critical moments will give you a virtually guaranteed win under your secondary win conditions. Even if this is technically gamethrowing, it would be very difficult to argue you weren't playing your role correctly to win given that those secondary win conditions exist.

Vigi guilt would go to Town, if only because there's none better. The Vigilante shoots a Townie which incurs the guilt, so it's that Townie's fault(not always) that the Vigi dies.

If your target is Mafia, Coven, or a Vampire and they get lynched, you have to make their faction lose for it, if only because they typically have the numbers to delay the vote long enough for you to protect your target. I know bussing is a thing, but it's their punishment for bussing a GA target.

If they're any other evil or Town, it goes to Town. Early on Town has control over lynching, and it puts more pressure on them. Do they lynch the SK now and make an enemy of the GA? It also makes Mafia have to debate, do they lynch the SK or do they keep the extra KPN and ally? If it's Town they get punished for lynching one of their own by gaining a new enemy.

Jester would default to Town, because Townies should be avoiding the lynch of a Jester at all costs, whereas scum might need the vote. If it's multiple, it goes to whichever faction has the highest winrate, because you do not want your target to die, it's your goal to keep them alive. If you fail that goal, you shouldn't have a cakewalk to win anyway.

How exactly would you get your target tactically killed? It's going to be obvious who your target is after you heal them once, and besides revealing your target you have no control over that. You can say "Kill my target" but you really don't have any actual control.

There are issues, but they can be ironed out.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Wed May 31, 2017 10:30 pm

I suppose that a 'Fallen Angel' would be a better fix than becoming a Survivor, though I don't think that we should try to create a role based on a role that we know doesn't work.

It honestly triggers me that such a role is still getting support. Imo, the GA is down there with the Pirate. I do acknowledge that the concept of a role whose purpose is to save a certain player is pretty neat on paper, but if you look at the actual GA, you'll see that it's a disaster.

Although I do agree with you that the GA shouldn't become a Survivor, there are still countless other problems not addressed by your fix:

1: The role is not really Benign; the game's RNG chooses its target for it, and the GA is forced to stick with this player.
2: The role's power varies wildly depending on the role of its target. GA is the sort of role that is UP in most scenarios, but OP in some. Here's some examples:
2a: If the target is a Townie, this does nothing but solidify Town's unfair lead over the evils. Town does not need another leader.
2b: If the target is a Neutral Killing, the GA is most likely screwed. The NKs need all the help they can get, but two heals aren't enough for a strong Town. If the NK gets found by an investigator, it's only a matter of time until they're lynched.
3: The GA's fate depends on how good their target is. If their target is really bad at the game and makes it obvious that they're a scum, there's not much the GA can do to stop this.
4: The luck aspect. Target is scum and gets found by Investigators early on, target visits an alerting Vet, target is killed by Mafia/NK, target gets disconnected or leaves, target gets Pirated, they get ignited by an Arsonist, etc, etc. Can a single role really save a person from the dangers of the Town of Salem?

Additionally, I don't think its fair for a GA to fail at their semi-impossible job only to get a new, easier one, which is what you're suggesting. Imo, the GA's job shouldn't be this hard, but I see no way of making
the goal easier without making the role OP. This is why I think that the GA needs to be either scrapped, or it needs a full rework.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:05 am

GA is benign because their target can be anyone. That's what makes it NB. Also, shouldn't you have some of these problems with Exe too?
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Kikigiri » Thu Jun 01, 2017 12:15 pm

I had a Fallen Angel suggestion earlier. My suggestion is a bit different:

Rather than your target's killer's faction, the FA just has to live to see everyone who actually participated in their death die. This means:

1. If your target is killed at night, you have to see everyone who attacked them that night die.

2. If your target is lynched, you have to see everyone who voted guilty on them die.

You are not given a list of names (in the event that they're killed at night), but you're told the number of killers (to make it a bit less arbitrary in rare cases where multiple killers of the same type attack them, which the FA would have no way of knowing!)

This could sometimes be a bit unpredictable based on what happens, but it's not random. The difficulty of the task could vary widely, and the GA has some ability to influence it (both by deciding when to protect their target, and by trying to minimize the number of guilty voters via arguments if their target is lynched.) And it also means that people will be cautious about killing someone they know is protected by a GA - on the other hand, they might just kill the GA first if they can identify them, or they might try and trick other people to lynch the GA's target to get the FA on their side. So it leads in interesting strategic directions.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:27 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:True. Bestiality is also an allowed name for some reason.


Probably because it's 'beastiality'... what you've spelled there is incorrect. Like all words there's ways around it with incorrect spelling or alternatives. Hitler is allowed as well, and names like 'Jew killer', things that are imho inappropriate but, what can we do? No sense in reporting them... the game is free. Even if they get banned on that account they'll just make another one. Why aren't IP bans a thing for repeat offenders...? :roll:

Tigerleap wrote:If you've voted on the polls, I would greatly appreciate it if you made a reply explaining why.


My personal opinion is as follows and I shall in no way be held responsible for how my opinon affects anyone else:
I upvoted the following roles:
    Tracker, Juggernaut, Pirate, Psychic, Guardian Angel, Plaguebearer
for the following reasons:

Tracker: Self explanitory in my opinion. It's been stated many times why it's a good role. Copy, paste, moving on.
Juggernaut: I have mixed feelings about this role, one that it starts off UP, then becomes completely OP. I like the concept of a role that can become more powerful overtime, but I think my main complaint is that for a role that is rather UP for awhile, it is "rare". I see no reason it shouldn't be the same as other roles, but overall, it's meh. I don't hate it and I don't love it. I feel rather neutral about it but given my options, I decided it deserved an upvote.
Pirate: I've seen a lot of hate about the pirate, but I kind of like it. However, I play Town differently than many and see no need to cause unnecessary chaos once I've gotten my win. Once I plunder twice I stop. I think that it wouldn't hurt to take away the ability once it's won, given that it has no purpose other than to cause chaos--which is successfully does, no doubt about it. If it just became neutral afterwards, it might improve. I've heard a lot of comments about the RPS approach but I don't mind it. Personally makes it kind of fun to have something that's a bit unpredictable. I don't love this role, but I definitely don't hate it either; though I think it would be better if the plundering abilities were taken away after 2 wins.
Psychic: I actually do like this role, but I don't disagree that it needs a nerf. I think it's a bit OP to have a confirmed townie immediately but I also don't think it's as bad as everyone says given that you only get one confirmed townie, you get three possible roles for someone who is 'bad', and you only get these results every other night. Keeping in mind that the 3 could be any evil role, including jesters. I don't personally find it as OP as everyone seems to think. I do however see how it could be very OP in certain circumstances. I guess it really depends on what game modes it's in. Given that I'm an avid AA player, this role would be more chaotic in a lot of situations.
Guardian Angel: I'm really very neutral about this role. I find it a bit based on luck given that you only have 2 chances to heal/purge your target, but I do like that you turn into a survivor if your target dies. It's hard to fight with a confirmed sheriff if they find your target is coven, mafia, or especially SK. I don't disagree with the 2 vest idea though, given that you have in theory already done your job, turning into a survivor with 4 vests late into the game seems a bit unfair.
Plaguebearer: I do like the plaguebearer, and even more recently. Of the listed roles, it's probably my favourite. I think it's a good concept to have someone who can infect townies, but not kill them. Given the arsonist buff (that made arsonist completely OP but that's not what this post is about) recently, I can appreciate this role for 2 reasons: it's not night immune which means it's actually very UP compared to it's firey friend, and it's silent but doesn't kill, which I think is part of what makes the arsonist totally overpowered. I like and dislike that it can spread so quickly, but mostly I like that it tells you everyone who is infected each night. My personal problem with the arsonist is that it silently douses, changes the investigation results, and then if gone undetected too long, just has to ignite to kill everyone. Plaguebearer on the other hand just infects everyone and doesn't have the ability to then kill them all. However, I do think that it's counterpart Pestilence is so incredibly OP that it's almost unreal. I've been Pestilence by day 3 (before they said who got infected each night), which given a different circumstance than my own could be entirely OP, being even more powerful than the WW. I am comparing these as two different roles. I really enjoy plaguebearer, however I'm not sure I've really got an opinion on Pestilence one way or the other. I find that as soon as Pestilence arises everyone in the town starts claiming roles even if they are bad and banding together to find Pestilence. When I was PB/Pestilence Day 3 I ended up getting random lynched and didn't even get to kill anyone so, there's that.

And just because I can I'm going to tell you my least favourite role.
Crusader: I don't think that BMG could have possibly come up with any way to make the BG worse, because in essence that's what this is. If they decide to visit every night, they are clumsy and could easily kill townies. Given that I haven't played it yet or even seen it played and honestly I'm not sure exactly how it works, but from what I've read it just kills visitors--not sure if it only attacks when the player is attacked, or if anyone visits. I think that makes a difference but not a big one. A role that is very harmful to town in most game modes, in my opinion. I've said for the last 3-4 patches that everything in this game is just stacked against townies, and town hasn't had a positive patch in awhile. Though I think that they may have redeemed themselves a bit with some of the new town roles, I think they also found a way to harm town further with town... something I didn't really think was possible. 0/10 would not recommend.

In short, I'm not crazy about any of the roles, really, but given the options those are my favourite/least favourite.
Hollr wrote:Also I lost -12 elo as surv so may I suggest you collectivly engage in intercourse with yourselves.


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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:47 pm

@Everyone making GA fixes
I suggest that you make your own thread for your own GA ideas instead of posting them on my thread, so that you can get a bigger audience and proper criticism. As I've already said, I don't think we should be focusing on what happens to the GA after death; I think that the GA is a broken role right now and needs a full-blown rework. Either that, or the whole role is scrapped. Posting your ideas in this thread will get you nothing but criticism from me, while making your own posts will get you different opinions from different people.

@Belshy
It pains me to see that people cannot understand the dangers of RNG. One of the main reasons I don't like most of the new roles is because they have RNG. So, here's all of the roles that have RNG:

*Hypnotist-The Hypnotist's displayed fake message is chosen by the game's RNG. As is explained in my actual post (please actually read it before making more replies), the RNG could potentially hurt Mafia more than anything by displaying otherwise impossible messages, revealing to the Town what the Random Mafia is.
*Psychic-Perhaps the most overpowered new role, the Psychic's RNG aspect is overlooked far too many times. The Psychic's potency is determined by the game's RNG, but not the player's skill, making it a no-skill role. In some games, the Psychic is nearly useless, while in others, he catches all the evils back-to-back. In not one, but two games I've had, the Psychic has gotten ALL 3 COVENS on the first night. The game's RNG sometimes chooses (Coven 1, Coven 2, or Coven 3 is evil), which leads to all of us having to claim a role, which then leads to our fake claims falling apart, and an easy Town victory. No role's potency should vary so wildly, and no role should require no skill.
*Guardian Angel-Although not directly RNG in terms of its abilities, its target is chosen by RNG. I know that you could say the same about the Executioner, but all of the Executioner's targets are Townies, while the Guardian Angel's targets are from the faction the RNG chooses. This makes the GA's power different depending on the faction of its target, and since the RNG chooses its target, it makes the GA not really Benign.
*Crusader-The person the Crusader kills is chosen randomly, which means that if both a Townie and a Coven visit the Crusader's target, the game's RNG decides who dies, which is very unfair. In addition to this, the Crusader is a bad role in itself.
*Pirate-This role is, without a doubt, the worst role in the expansion. This role gives its host the illusion of choice, but the choice is not a choice at all!--it's RNG! Although Rock Paper Scissors isn't technically random, it basically is because you have no idea what the other player will pick. If you replaced the RPS game with a 33.3% chance of killing, there would be no difference functionally. Here is some proof that it's RNG and needs to go away:
UP example: in many games, the Pirate doesn't even get a single kill. It just keeps trying to kill, but it has bad luck and does literally nothing.
OP example: in one VIP game, I was playing as a Pirate. Here's how the game went:
N1- Pirate kills the 1st Coven. 2nd Coven is killed by Crusader.
N2- Pirate kills the 2nd Coven.
D3- Pirate sides with Town, and the 4th Coven is lynched. Town victory.
I know this game might sound impossible, but I assure you that it is very real, and I did indeed kill two Covens back to back. Even if I was lying (which I'm not), this is still a possible outcome. No role should have the power to potentially kill so many evils back to back.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:44 pm

How does Guardian Angel not being able to pick their target at all mean they're not Benign?
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:07 pm

Tigerleap wrote:No role should have the power to potentially kill so many evils back to back.

Serial killer???? Jailor???? Vigilante??? Vampire????

Sure, most of these may be by chance, and yes arguably the jailor and the vigilante both have reprocussions if they kill an innocent (not that it stops random shooting/executions), but vampires can randomly target coven and mafia every night as long as they don't hit a neutral/townie. With your argument then you should also have problems with the serial killer, because not only can he kill an evil every night if he's lucky, he's night immune. The only difference with the pirate is that as far as I know he can go through some night immunity, where as the serial killer can't. As far as RPS I wouldn't mind if that changed, but personally I don't think it makes a difference. It's not random, you said that yourself. You can't say that RPS isn't random and then argue that it is because you don't know what they will pick; that's literally the point of RPS, virtual or reality.

The Executioner provides just as much as a problem as Guardian Angel. Just because he can have a target from any faction doesn't make him any different. His abilities remain the same, given that he either wins with his target, or turns into a survivor. If town does their job, his target will get lynched or executed anyway if he's bad. He doesn't know what his target's faction is at least for some length of time, unless he whispers him and asks, which would just be stupid anyway. Therefore it doesn't matter what his faction is, he just has to provide healing at night and deception during the day to the best of his ability. And again, he's not even night immune so the GA can die early anyway. Once he's dead he can only purge his target and hope he wins. With the executioner, if he gets a target that can prove himself such as sheriff or investigator, he pretty much inst-loses because the town will know he's exe... There are cons in terms of 'randomness' to almost every role.

In the same sense, the vampires aren't really neutral either, given that if it comes down to it, they can win with the live townies but not the mafia. Almost any point can be argued in terms of neutrality for many neutral roles, really.

As far as the argument that psychic requires no skill, a lot of roles are not based on skill. Until people start revealing, the bodyguard chooses at random who to guard. Medium requires absolutely no skill what-so-ever and is only as useful as the information that dead people give, assuming they don't all leave or provide misinformation. I'm not arguing that the psychic could be improved, but the argument that it requires no skill is kind of moot. Not to mention, roles are solely based on the operater. You can have terrible jailors and really great mediums.

Also, don't ask people's opinions on roles if you don't want to hear it. :wave:

Given that I play Chaos I see the roles from a completely different perspective as someone who might play Ranked or other game modes, but given that I feel almost everything in this community is based on the opinion of Ranked players or aimed to improve Ranked, I don't mind giving my two cents on behalf of my opinion in relation to other game modes.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Thu Jun 01, 2017 11:20 pm

@HereThereEverywhere
A Neutral Benign role is a role that can win with potentially anyone. The Guardian Angel, however, cannot win unless its target lives. I know that it's Benign to some extent since their target doesn't always have to win (their target could be an Executioner that never lynches their target but lives, for example), but for the most part, if the Guardian Angel's faction doesn't win, they won't, either.

@Belshy
RNG

Once again, the ToS community has been divided by one thing; we don't all have the same enemy. I thought I'd already made it clear, but I suppose I should clarify that my one and only enemy in Town of Salem is chaos. By Chaos, I do not just mean Neutral Chaos (though that is pretty chaotic as well), but rather any feature in the game that cannot be controlled.

When you're designing a video game, it's important to never add any features that you cannot control, especially in a game that needs to be carefully balanced, like ToS. This is the reason that the community as a whole dislikes RNG, and pardon my word choice, but everyone that understands RNG and doesn't hate its nature is an absolute dunce.

For example, look at the Pirate. What is the Pirate's KP? You could say it's 1/3, but it really isn't. On average, the Pirate kills 1 player every 3 nights, but unless you've never played a Coven gamemode before, you'll know that it isn't like that. Although it is unlikely, it is very much possible that a Pirate could kill a player every single night as if it were a Neutral Killing. Likewise, it is also very much possible that the Pirate could do absolutely nothing for the whole game (other than RBing, though that doesn't contribute to its goal) despite trying its best to win. So, what would you do in this case? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the Pirate is unbalanced, but neither a buff nor a nerf would work in this situation, as there's no clear 'KP' for the Pirate.

And no, you couldn't say the same about the Werewolf. There's no clear 'KP' for the Werewolf either, but it's clear that the Werewolf kills once every other night, and it will kill unless there's any factors to stop the WW, such as Protectors, Transporters, strong immunity, etc, but these events are not random. As for the rampaging attacks, it's still not random. Yes, I understand that there's no way of knowing how many kills it will get, but the Werewolf can use its knowledge to attack people who it knows are likely to be visited.

Also, one of your main arguments against me is incorrect. No, the entirety of Town of Salem is not based on luck. For once, I do actually see where you're coming from, but you're still wrong. Yes, I get that roles like Sheriff and Doctor and Mafioso and Lookout and pretty much all roles in the game have to make a lot of guesses, but guessing and luck are not the same thing.

Guesses are based on evidence while luck is, well, just luck. There are two types of choices in ToS, one of which you seem to confuse with luck. Here they are:
Concrete Choice: a choice that is made because of a piece of evidence that the user believes to be true. Examples:
* A Sheriff claims that someone is a member of the Mafia, and the Town decides to lynch them.
* A Jailor jails someone whose role claim is impossible in the Role List, and the Jailor decides to execute them.
* A Doctor heals someone who they know is a Townie.
Inference: a choice is based on something that could be true, but it isn't proven to be true, though it may have evidence hinting that it could be true.
Examples:
* The Town decides to vote up someone who has been silent. There's no proof they are evil, but it would make sense for an evil to be quiet.
* Scumreading; it makes sense to get suspicious of someone who doesn't vote up the evils, though there is no evidence.
* A Sheriff claims that someone is a member of the Mafia, but Town ignores them because they are probably an Executioner

The fact that evidence can be incorporated into these actions to decide which possibility is more likely makes the entirety of Town of Salem not RNG. And last time I checked, the human brain does not have a random number generator; even choices that seem like pure luck are made by the player's subconscious using evidence the player cannot see, though this evidence is very much real.

The Pirate's choices, on the other hand, are purely luck, since there is no evidence even hinting at what the other player will choose. The player does do a bit of thinking, such as, "I'm going to pick Rapier since I've seen a lot of people use Chainmail," but are players really more likely to use Chainmail than other defense options? Maybe, but there's no way of knowing which choice is used the most.

As for the Executioner, I do agree with you on this one, to some extent, at least; the role of the Executioner's target affects the Executioner's potency; A Medium could easily be lynched while an Investigator is nearly impossible to lynch. However, as much as I dislike this semi-RNG, the Executioner, unlike the Guardian Angel, is a necessary evil for Ranked game modes. In ToS in its current state, if someone says something among the lines of "I'm Sheriff and _____ is a member of the Mafia," what's the first thing that people think of? Exe. Without the Executioner, what are the odds of claims like these being false? Why shouldn't you believe the claim? And if they're wrong, then the person making the claim must be a scum, so the Jailor can take care of them afterwards.

Responsibility

All of the Town of Salem roles have responsibilities that they should follow in order to be effective, the main one being to try one's best to win. Responsibilities for a Doctor, for example, would range from simple things such as "vote with the Town to try and lynch the evils" to "heal people who you know are likely Townies." Responsibilities are what restrict killing roles from killing whoever they want. For example, a Jailor or Vigi won't kill unless they're almost certain that their target is evil.

The Townies aren't the only ones who have such responsibilities, however. In fact, I'd say the evils have more responsibilities. For example, if you're a Mafia member, who you kill is important, and killing certain players may lead to unfavorable outcomes. For example, you want to kill important Townies, but you want to leave claimspace for yourself, so killing someone of your false claim's alignment may lead to you being lynched later in the game.

This is where the Pirate comes in. The Pirate has absolutely no responsibilities. It can kill whoever it wants, and it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter to the Pirate if he kills Townies or Covens or Mafia or whatever, or if he gets lynched or killed. Once the Pirate secures its two kills, it becomes an unfair kingmaker free to do whatever it wishes to. It only has one responsibility, and it isn't even permanent, unless the RNG wants it to be...

Conclusion

In conclusion, chaos is bad, no matter what form or shape it takes. This is the same reason that I dislike roles like the Vampire; it's a terrible role that should never have been added in the first place. At least Vampires have more responsibilities...

As for the Executioner issues, I do know that it can become a kingmaker, which leads to chaos. I do agree that the Executioner needs some sort of fix, but it's not fair to compare the Exe with the GA.

And that concludes the post! So, Mrs. Pirate-lover, are you saying that you support chaos?
Last edited by Tigerleap on Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:51 am

GA can win with anyone, it just depends on their target. I know it's not the same as other NBs, but it's still technically NB. Even if it's stretching the definition a little, it can win with anyone so NB is the only fitting category.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 10:50 am

Tigerleap wrote:When you're designing a video game, it's important to never add any features that you cannot control, especially in a game that needs to be carefully balanced, like ToS. This is the reason that the community as a whole dislikes RNG, and pardon my word choice, but everyone that understands RNG and doesn't hate its nature is an absolute dunce.

Have you designed a videogame before? Fortunately I have some insider knowledge on how RNG is actually very useful to attracting people, given that my boyfriend is a video game designer. Perhaps that's an argument you should take up with someone who has background knowledge and not just an opinion--just because you hate it doesn't make anyone who doesn't stupid.

Further, I should note that your comments about my main argument being luck-based gameplay, I'm not sure if that was a misread or if you somehow misunderstood what I said, so let me clarify. I agree that most gameplay isn't based on luck, once you get further into the game. Sheriff's finding a mafia member night 1 on no evidence versus a sheriff finding mafia on night 3 is completely luck based for a few reasons:

    They have narrowed down their choses based on who they picked and who has died
    They have information from what others have shared in terms of results
    Just the way people engage in conversation can sometimes be a tell
    If anyone has claimed a role it could lead to suspicions

Yes, I agree the game is generally based on choices made due to evidence, however there is absolutely no plausible argument suggesting that without insider information or a day 1 revealed mayor that a bodyguard would no who to guard, or a doctor would know who to heal, or a sheriff would know who to investigate. So yes, despite the fact that my argument was not about the entire game being luck based, I will argue that there is a certain level of luck present in night one every single time.

Tigerleap wrote:The fact that evidence can be incorporated into these actions to decide which possibility is more likely makes the entirety of Town of Salem not RNG. And last time I checked, the human brain does not have a random number generator; even choices that seem like pure luck are made by the player's subconscious using evidence the player cannot see, though this evidence is very much real.


This kind of speaks for itself and undermines your entire RNG argument, so I have no further comments here.

As for you, Mr. Pirate-Hater, I am a Mrs, and yes, I do in fact support chaos; a fact that is kind of already known given my statement about only playing chaos:

Belshy wrote:Given that I'm an avid AA player

Belshy wrote:Given that I play Chaos I see the roles from a completely different perspective as someone who might play Ranked or other game modes, but given that I feel almost everything in this community is based on the opinion of Ranked players or aimed to improve Ranked, I don't mind giving my two cents on behalf of my opinion in relation to other game modes.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:53 pm

Chaos is great for Chaos, but not structured gameplay. I play All Any mainly, so you can't use that against me. Pirate and Vampire are two great examples of roles that should either be Chaos only or scrapped if they can't do that.

Also, yes there's a bit of luck in N1 actions, but that's not the same as having RNG determine actions. Past N1 you should be scumreading and basing choices off of that. Sure, even N2 might have a bit of randomness to it but by then you should at least have a vague idea of who you're going to be checking. RNG allows for little to no skill where it's concerned, which is a lot worse than someone randomly choosing a target early on, because they wont keep randomly choosing later. RNG in roles will always be RNG in those roles.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:55 pm

@Belshy

I wasn't expecting this. It seems that we have reached a fork in the road; at this point, neither one of us can convince the other of anything. You like chaos while I loathe it. I truly do despise people like you. I've had my fair share of heated arguments here in the forums, but I can't say that I've seen worse.

Anyway, I actually am designing a video game right now. I am no professional, so I will not act like one, but I faced a similar issue regarding RNG while developing the game.

Our game is a RPG-based game where the players have to fight using swords, etc, etc. When we first finished the swords, there was a glitch that made it so the hitboxes didn't always work, meaning that some swings didn't do damage, and it was impossible to tell when it would or wouldn't glitch. One of my friends suggested that maybe we should incorporate this as a feature, so that swings would sometimes randomly miss, but I turned down their idea. Adding RNG into RPGs isn't always a bad idea (critical hits, drop rates, etc), but in this case, we couldn't control the feature. We didn't know if it happened 20% of the time or 10% or whatever, no, it just happened from time to time. We ended up remaking the swords instead of sticking with the old designs.

See what I mean? If we'd kept the "misses," once we released the game, the players would've been pissed off in PVP because their swords don't work. And that's on a RPG, a game in which RNG isn't even all that bad. Now imagine this in Town of Salem, a game that is literally built on skill and being smart.

What your boyfriend said is true, however; luck attracts new players, as it cloaks mundane features to seem much more appealing. But this is a strategy based game, lad. In an ideal strategy game, the team that plays the best wins. ToS is not an ideal strategy game yet, as the factions aren't balanced, but I can tell you that BMG is working on the issues as we speak.

And you may ask, "well then, why did they add the RNG roles?" That is a good question, and it isn't a question that anyone knows the answer to, which is why we here in the ToS community are working our asses off to try to get BMG to fix their mistakes. Not all of us in the ToS community hate RNG as much as I do (though there are many who do), but we all hate the Pirate.

This is no longer a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact, and if you think you're right, then you're dead wrong. Scroll up. Look at PTR feedback! Everybody hates the Pirate! The ToS community is powerful when it works together, and I can tell you that BMG is going to do something about the darn Pirate. So stop supporting it, will you? You are NOT one of us! So stop acting like you are! I have no idea how much experience you have with the actual game, though based on your beliefs, your skill doesn't seem to be all that impressive, and if you want to fit in with the forums, well then, you're going to have some growing up to do. And no, don't say, "oh, but I'm _____ years old!" You're on the same level as the people that suggest roles like "Firefighter," but these people at least want to balance the game, even if their beliefs are wrong.

So before making another reply, please actually play a Ranked game of Town of Salem, and imagine what would happen if a role like Pirate was the any, or if there was a Psychic, or a Crusader, etc. I don't even think you fully understand what Town of Salem is. There's a reason that you always see players thinking of ways to balanced Ranked, but you never see players talking about AA. The Chaos game-modes were added for fun, and I don't judge you for playing them, but understand that balancing the skill-based game-modes is more important than anything else.
@HereThereEverywhere

I feel like the Pirate is a bad role even for the Chaos game-modes, but I suppose that making NC roles Chaos-only would be a good enough fix. We know that there will be a Coven version of Ranked with all the new roles, and we want to keep the Pirate out of it at all costs.

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby kyle54321 » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:39 pm

I don't post here often, but I this is a good discussion! Below are my opinions of the roles but I should start off by saying I think the role list, at least for VIP mode (which I play the most), gives skewed opinions for some of the roles.

Great:

Ambusher - I have yet to actually see this role in action despite playing a lot of coven games, but the idea is sound and really helps the mafia in currently un-winnable situations.
Hypnotist - I'm not quite sure why everyone seems to be hating on this role --- it has the potential to be very powerful (and quite fun!) if the hypnotist gets to choose what their target sees. Currently it can't, but the devs said they're working on making a fancy menu like pirate and PM so that they choose what fake info to give their target. I see this being a fantastic role in the hands of intelligent players.
The Coven - While not mentioned in this thread, I find them as a whole really fun to play as. They're strong, but not OP strong. Maybe most importantly, all roles are fun whereas the mafia have roles that leave a lot to be desired.

Good:

Psychic - I agree this role is OP by itself, but it seems fairly easy to claim psychic as an evil. This is where I think I think role-list comes in --- with 3 TPs, coven has no incentive to visit the real psychic. However, if there were only 1 TP and an evil could be more convincing that they're the real psychic, evils would have a huge advantage by getting the TP off town for a while. This would be a particularly good strategy as medusa. I do think this role has to be strong since coven can kill so quickly at the beginning.
Tracker - This role feels like a worse lookout, and sounds waaay too similar to trapper. Whereas lookout can confirm killers, doctors, etc. this role cannot. The only upside is that it's guaranteed to get steady info each night. This role could be powerful with a spy, but only if you stalked someone. I'm thoroughly unimpressed with this role, but can't consider it bad.

Questionable:

Crusader - I dunno what to think of this role. I play a lot of VIP mode, and common sense says that only the crusader would visit the VIP... at least in the beginning. Yet I've seen so many crusaders kill other TPs (and crusaders killing themselves n1) that it seems that this role is only good if town is smart enough to not make boneheaded plays. I see so many ways for evils to exploit this role that I imagine it'll be a net negative for town.
GA - There's nothing benign about this role --- either they're helping town or they're helping an evil. The same can kinda be said about the other NB roles, but often they stay out of the action until they decide. This forcibly puts you on a team. I like the other suggestions that GA should get to choose their target.
Trapper - I put this here and not in the awful category cause I'm not sure if my experiences are bugged or not. I set a trap n2 on a high profile target, who was visited 3 times that night according to dead players wills. However my trap didn't activate until n3 (target was witched, which they claimed the next day so my trap was worthless). I then had to build a trap n4 and couldn't place it til n5 and couldn't get info until n6 when again, 2 players visited my target n5. Having 2 pieces of info on day 7 would make this by far the most worthless role in the game. However, once a trapper saved me from a pirate duel on n2 so one of our games seems bugged. Being able to potentially place a trap every other night would bump it up to good/great but in my experience it's awful.

Bad:

Juggernaut - I may have a negative opinion cause it's a super-rare role, but it doesn't seem that strong. With a good town, the only way to win is to kill someone n2, which is somewhat dependent on luck, plus not being night immune for the first 3 nights makes it the weakest NK role by far. I guess I just hate that it'll be super rare to get and when you do get it, it'll be extremely tough to win as. It does, however, feel fun.
Plaguebearer - This role is a ton of fun... but only in a quiet town. Any active town that VFRs should be able to quickly eliminate plaguebearer, as they have nothing to claim at all. At least vampires can claim their old role, and mafia, coven, and vampires have support of their teammates, but this chaos role seems much too weak. I think this has the potential to be an amazing role though.

Awful:

Pirate - This role feels forced to me. As others mention, winning is just a matter of dumb luck. Playing rock, paper, scissors in a game of deception feels incredibly boring and a waste of time.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Belshy » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:40 pm

Tigerleap wrote:So stop supporting it, will you? You are NOT one of us! So stop acting like you are!

Oh rest assured, the last thing I want is to be a closeminded ignorant child who is deadset on the his way or the highway. ;)

I won't stop supporting it. You asked for people's opinions of what they upvoted and why, and that's what I gave. Unfortunately I'm not a child who is going to change my opinion because a keyboard warrior thinks his opinion is the only right one. I have my opinion and you have yours. Both are free to have each. The only thing we agree on is that we aren't going to convince each other, and that's okay. What's not ok is to troll the forums and tell people that their opinions aren't okay because they aren't yours.

As with any well structured argument, you've stated your side from your perspective and I have countered with arguments from my point of view. If you've run out of rebuttles, that doesn't leave room for ignorance and insults. My opinion of roles has absolutely zero relation to my gameplay. As for your RNG comments, that's very different... obviously you wouldn't release a game that has bugs which is really all that was. It's a completely irrelevent point in relation to ToS. We aren't talking about obvious game bugs, we're talking about people being angry that they can't control one simple little aspect of the game which you have twice stated isn't as RNG as you want it to be, just so you can be right.

I have played Ranked, however I find it very boring and hardly challenging. Until you can play a game without any structure and actually use your brain to win a game rather than relying on process of elimination and role lists then your opinion is very null and void to me, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tell you it's wrong. Then again, calling ranked "skill-based" in my opinion is a stretch.

The most irritating thing with this toxic community is that you all live in a bubble imagining the only people who financially support the game play Ranked, which is widely untrue. I'm very close with around 6 of the top 10 players on the leaderboards, all of which have paid real money to play and support this game through buying it on ToS, spending money on TP, and even backing the Kickstarter, and all of those people play AA. Being one of the people who have spent have financially supported this game, I won't succumb to your ideology that this game needs to revolve around Ranked because there is more than your dying numbers who enjoy playing this game.

As far as "nobody else supports it", there's 20 upvotes. Since I can only vote once, that leaves 19 other people who have an opinion that opposes yours as well; I suppose they're wrong as well?

Your intolerable condescending attitude isn't going to get your far in life and certainly not this argument. I don't care if you're 14 or 40, if you have 100 or 10000 games, grouping yourself against people as a community is childish. If you want to ask people for their opinions, which you did, then you should be open to listening to them and not trying to change their minds. Save us both the trouble and keep your mediocre passive aggressive insults and don't reply unless you have something constructive to add. Your coloured fonts and HTML text isn't as intimidating as you want it to be--my apologies.

And for the record, I'm 22, I started in October, 2015 and I've played 4002 games to date, not including PTR games.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:46 pm

People hate Hypnotist because it randomly gives feedback. Giving it the custom UI it should've had from the beginning fixes it, and that's what the original community suggestion was. Tracker has also been suggested by the community a lot. If you see someone visit another on some night, you can easily confirm or deny their will, which allows you to potentially confirm or call out people if they're faking it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Fri Jun 02, 2017 7:23 pm

@Belshy

Childish, you say? By calling my behavior childish, you are basically saying that pretty much every user on the ToS forums is childish. I do admit that I am much more aggressive than most users, but isn't the entire ToS forum built on the fact that people have different opinions? I've seen heated arguments before, and our argument is by no means the most intense one to date.

Why am I being so aggressive, you may ask? I wholeheartedly believe that I am not the aggressor here. In fact, my goal here is to avoid conflict unless necessary. I know this may seem ironic, but the reason I've held out this argument for so long is because we should be arguing over more dividing issues instead of arguing over trivial things such as RNG.

For instance, why are we, the community, not arguing about the Tracker? There's bound to be people who don't like the Tracker, and yet you never see any heated arguments over this issue. This is because a truism has been created; Tracker being a good role isn't a fact, but it's such a popular opinion and it has so much evidence supporting it that it is widely believed to be true, and it is so very clear, if not apparent, that it is rarely questioned.

The same could be said for RNG. I'm going to cut this post short, though I will end it with an important question that concerns the issue of RNG, and I will tell you my answer. Anyway, here it is:

What main factor should decide who wins in a standard game of Town of Salem?

The "correct" answer:
Spoiler: The answer to this question is, in itself, a truism, and it is believed by almost all Town of Salem players. I believe this. The Devs believe this. The competitive community believes this. Even most of the lesser experienced players believe this. The main factor that should decide who wins a standard game of Town of Salem is skill. Can you deny this? Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony.
Conclusion

If you want me to respect your argument, then I need to at least see something that would lead you to believe what you believe. In most arguments, you can at least see where your opponent is coming from, even if you strongly disagree with them. I haven't seen any arguments in favor of RNG other than "because it's fun" or "because why not." This is the reason that everybody hates the Pirate! Although most of the new roles suck, we can at least see what BMG intended to do, and therefore we can better understand each other. But nobody has any idea why BMG made the Pirate...

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

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What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby JazzMusicStops » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:40 am

The whole argument can be summed up with:
"Mafia is a game of skill, the only RNG should be deciding which roles appear"

Tbh
And you may say to yourself, "My God! What have I done?"

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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:56 am

@JammySplodge

Agreed. The RNG that decides which roles appear in the game actually adds skill to the game rather than luck, and thus it is a part of Town of Salem. Therefore, Town of Salem is a skill-based game, and it should remain that way.

I wish that I could've wrapped up the entire argument like that, but unfortunately, some people are less cooperative than others, and sometimes you have to use "raw power" to get an idea into someone's head.

@Belshy

This entire argument is looking pretty grim at this point, and I really don't think there's any way that you will ever come to hate RNG the way the rest of us do. I'm thinking of "resigning" from the argument not as a loser, but rather as a winner whose opponent refuses to admit they've lost.

Yes, I'm speaking to you right now. I know you believe that I am a hard-headed guy who refuses to admit he's wrong, but thing is, I've made many mistakes in the past--we all have--and on various occasions I've backed down from arguments and admitted that I'm wrong. But I know I'm not wrong in this case, and so do you, so we should cut this argument short, for no good will come out of it.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

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Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:01 am

You can't win in an argument based on opinions.


Also, the RNG with which roles are assigned is still luck-based, not skill based.
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Re: The Coven Update's Hits and Misses

Postby Tigerleap » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:11 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:You can't win in an argument based on opinions.


Also, the RNG with which roles are assigned is still luck-based, not skill based.


I disagree.

You indeed can win an argument based on opinions, as long as you have evidence to support your opinion. I've changed my mind on various things in ToS, as have most people, because people have provided evidence that supports their opinions, and therefore I've realized that they're right.

Can we all (or mostly all) agree that RNG in roles is bad?

And no, the RNG that assigns the roles is not entirely luck based. This RNG has two purposes, all of which make the game skill-based.
1: It creates the environment for the game, which does usually gives a slight edge to a certain team, but this doesn't mean that the other teams can't win if they play well, and it's not going to be a big advantage as long as the role list doesn't suck. If it wasn't for the RNG in role lists, every game would be the same, and all the games would be predictable. What makes ToS such a hard game is that it's always unpredictable, and you need to consider all of the possible outcomes to determine which is the most likely.
2: It gives the evils a chance at actually winning the game. Imagine a game without claimspace; VFR would get the evils almost every time. Having all of these random roles makes all claims seem possible unless they are proven to be impossible.

So yes, I guess it is technically 'luck,' but it makes the game skill-based, and it isn't fair to put it on the same category as roles like Pirate.

"Skill and luck are bound to intercept each other, and thus the two cannot coexist in harmony."

-Tigerleap


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FAQ

Spoiler: FAQ:
Why am I called Tigerleap? - It's my Warrior Cat name!
What is my favorite role? - The Lookout is the most fun role for me to play as.
What is my least favorite role? - The Pirate; it's absolutely cancer and we must get rid of it.
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Tigerleap
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