AWFUL role list.

[lionon]

Currently there are very few statistics on ToS. And we don't even agree on what that "balanced" actually is*!

However I expect once ranked is online for a while, we can see win ratios and then alter the list for this in favor of balanced-ness, as soon we got an idea what balanced ought to be anyway.

* viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14200

True balance can never be met especially in a game like ToS.

especially as nobody seems to even know what "true balance" would actually be.

[Exacerbated]

If it is difficult to create balance, we might as well try to satisfy the desire for variety in role lists.

[lionon]

If it is difficult to create balance, we might as well try to satisfy the desire for variety in role lists.

If that is the premise, the answer to it is all any, since it has the largest variety possible, anything is possible.

To get all roles in the game, yet have sensible balanced role lists, I'd suggest 3-4 pre determined role lists. A ranked game picks one on random! No lobby voting please, I have enough of lobby social dynamics.

Ocasionally have forums vote on the lists and alter the least liked one.

But no voting, everybody has to play all rolelists that are active if the RNG picks it.

[Gobln]

I disagree i would rather have one role list that everyone masters. and yes noooo voting. voting would be a mess.

[chitownmvp01]

I disagree i would rather have one role list that everyone masters. and yes noooo voting. voting would be a mess.

How would it be a mess? It would be so much better than all the repicks in custom lobbies. I personally think players should get a say in the role list for every game. Also, what if people get bored from playing the same role list all over again and again? This is why I think there should either be voting or they change the role list once every week or so.

[Exacerbated]

If it is difficult to create balance, we might as well try to satisfy the desire for variety in role lists.

If that is the premise, the answer to it is all any, since it has the largest variety possible, anything is possible.

To get all roles in the game, yet have sensible balanced role lists, I'd suggest 3-4 pre determined role lists. A ranked game picks one on random! No lobby voting please, I have enough of lobby social dynamics.

Ocasionally have forums vote on the lists and alter the least liked one.

But no voting, everybody has to play all rolelists that are active if the RNG picks it.

It doesn't have to be all any. You can have deliberately mafia and town favored setups; you just have to adapt and create different strategies for the possible setups that you can encounter. 843 834 and 933 are all relatively balanced, although 933 favors town and 943 favors mafia.

[Gobln]

I disagree i would rather have one role list that everyone masters. and yes noooo voting. voting would be a mess.

How would it be a mess? It would be so much better than all the repicks in custom lobbies. I personally think players should get a say in the role list for every game. Also, what if people get bored from playing the same role list all over again and again? This is why I think there should either be voting or they change the role list once every week or so.

idk, i just think that if they are going to have a competitive ranked mode it should have 1 role list. voting doesnt sound like it would work out and would cause fighting and maybe people leaving if they see the role list they want is losing.

[chitownmvp01]

I disagree i would rather have one role list that everyone masters. and yes noooo voting. voting would be a mess.

How would it be a mess? It would be so much better than all the repicks in custom lobbies. I personally think players should get a say in the role list for every game. Also, what if people get bored from playing the same role list all over again and again? This is why I think there should either be voting or they change the role list once every week or so.

idk, i just think that if they are going to have a competitive ranked mode it should have 1 role list. voting doesnt sound like it would work out and would cause fighting and maybe people leaving if they see the role list they want is losing.

Good point about people leaving. And for the vote I was suggesting, there would be no chat. People would just vote. In this case, I am more for the role list being changed once every week or so for variety and so people don't get bored of playing the same role list again and again.

[lionon]

943 favors mafia.

943 favors the impossible barrier in a game of 15.

But yes, 3 role lists 933, 834, 843 that get auto-selected at lobby sounds nice. With a variety of roles, like WW/SK/Witch etc around.

I'm against voting in lobbies, since we see in custom already how it ends up. at least 51% of playerbase dominate everything and wont even want to try something different.

And yes, I'd like to see some rolling over every month or so.

This also keeps the game interesting. Have a month a list with guaranteed janitor/disguiser for example. Have another month that funny list idea with 5 consorts (see custom setups). etc.

I don't see why any rolelist should be set in stone. even in ranked.

[LordofFail]

Against Neutral Benign, since the amnesiac is effectively an "any". he choses to side whomever.

I like the last list 5). Execpt it would make the disguisor useless, since he can never happen to be with a janitor, the only time his skill makes any sense against a non-noob-town. (yeah and future forger). Anyway since when he isn't paired he doesnt work.

I'd give mafia a guaranteed janitor. So the disguiser always works if he is there. Makes also role calling harder, since some roles will be cleaned. Mafia Killing (Mafioso or GF randomized), Janitor, Mafia Random. The last random can somtimes be the Mafioso/GF combo, so it are two or cannot.

I'd switch the doc for a 3rd investigatives. Yes many think it oh so overpowers town. No it doesnt 2 can easily die early on and make the game from interesting to randomly lynching people, since nothing except guessing on bluffs is left. Two protectives on the otherhand can overpower town. I hate nothing more, than a town that has two docs that discovered each other. They are unkillable!!!

There is a reason why Survivor is only specified on the lowest level: more experienced players know how to play with an Amnesiac in play.

I would say that I like 5) the least - it has the most specified roles and the least amount of randomness.

No. Mafia should NOT get a guaranteed Janitor. Ever. I am not a fan of any confirmed Mafia roles except for Godfather (and potentially Mafioso for the lowest level). About role calling: very very few games that I have played in actually have a role call. They dont work because there are always some people that dont go along with it, regardless of their role.

A third investigative to be confirmed on the Role List? No. Never ever please. That is problem #1 with the current list IMO. 3 Investigatives is way to OP. If you notice, the higher up list, list 1 only has one confirmed Investigative. Top players do not rely on the Investigative roles to win - they rely on reading other players to discover their alignment. 2 confirmed protectives is not OP. Only if they find each other, and protect each other every night. And only if there is only 1 killing role left in play. Otherwise, the Mafia go about killing everyone other than the protectives. 2 killing roles left against 2 doctors = draw. 2 killing roles against 1 bg and 1 doc: scum wins - BG kills one evil, doc left unprotected.

Oh, and at more experienced levels, if a situation with two known protectives, a mafia member can easily claim doctor and will claim to protect the other but really just wont attack them.

[lionon]

No. Mafia should NOT get a guaranteed Janitor. Ever. I am not a fan of any confirmed Mafia roles except for Godfather (and potentially Mafioso for the lowest level).

You need to work on the logic of your arguments. It should not be Ever. because you're not a fan of it? And thats all to say about it? Well for bold capital with dot ever one might expect a bit more beef than just, you not being a fan...

[Gobln]

i still stand by 8-3-4 i think with vamp and vampire hunter coming out soon this will definitely be the most balanced role list and the most enjoyable.

[Didgeridoom]

I like a lot of lord of fail and Goblns lists

The any slot has no place in ranked. If I showed you 10 lists where the any slot was revealed you could easily see most of them were unbalanced. Not really sure why there is such a huge push for it. Maybe just because it's just what people are used to from custom? Just because you can't see it's a bad list doesn't mean it isn't.

Anyways I vote 8-3-4 too. The current setup is even more town favored than Classic (Escort and Jailor both got large buffs due to the removal of Mafioso, and Town Invest is a small upgrade from lookout) on top of that Arso and especially Werewolf just aren't as strong as SK as far as the Nuetral Killing goes. If you spend some time in Custom you'll quickly see how 8 town is plenty to still be favored in most setups.

[LordofFail]

No. Mafia should NOT get a guaranteed Janitor. Ever. I am not a fan of any confirmed Mafia roles except for Godfather (and potentially Mafioso for the lowest level).

You need to work on the logic of your arguments. It should not be Ever. because you're not a fan of it? And thats all to say about it? Well for bold capital with dot ever one might expect a bit more beef than just, you not being a fan...

I will explain why. Mafia only get 3 members, we agree on that at least, right?

One is a confirmed Godfather or Mafioso (game rules force this).

That leaves only 2 role spots for variety. Confirming one role prevents many scenarios that would be possible from two non-confirmed spots.

[Nellyfox]

Poll up for a new role list: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14740

[Cortala]

I totally agree, if this is what ToS ranked turns into I won't be playing much longer.

[ValeforRaine]

Locking the topic since the role list has been changed since it was made and we don't want any more necros.