Allow the reported users to post their explanation/rebuttal

[LeoIvanov]

The trial system, as it stands, is good for filtering and solving really obvious rule breaking like spamming, or inappropriate usernames, etc. However, once it gets to a certain level of complexity (something that requires rational overview), the trial system poses a great problem. I'll explain what I mean.

To pass a fair judgement, the neutral side (the juror or the voter) has to do 3 things:
1) Hear the accuser's side of the story
2) Hear the defending side of the story
3) Compare both with available facts and pass verdict

Right now, the Trial system only allows the jurors and voters 2 of those things, and it's access to the accuser's side of the story as well as the facts. However, the defending side is left unable to defend themselves, making the jurors and voters have to do a lot of guesswork and assuming, which is what I see being done often at this very moment.

Example: People voting guilty on "gamethrowing" reports based on a specific action (not claiming on stand), despite not knowing the defending side's view on what he thought of it at the time. If the accused side could provide their feedback on what was happening at the time, then whoever is voting could pass a more unbiased judgement. That doesn't 100% save the reports from bias of the voters, however, the jurors would actually be able to see whether all of the "Guilties" that come up are actually valid, reasonable or not.

tl;dr - Allow the reported users to comment/post rebuttal on their reports for the jurors and voters to see and make a fair judgement.

[Flavorable]

Not claiming a role on the stand is always gamethrowing, so I don't see why the reported user's reasoning should have any influence whatsoever. Jurors check if the rules were broken, simple as that. If a person who got suspended has reasoning for it, they can post it on the Appeals forum.

A vote is already unbiased if a juror just follows the rules that are set, if anything, giving someone who was reported the chance to reason their way out of it only means jurors actually do get biased. There's nothing to "guess" or "assume" when rules are being broken, they either broke them, or they didn't.

[CommentEtiquette]

LeoIvanov,
That is some great etiquette and an even better concern. I myself also have this concern as it does not give the (legal term) defendant a chance to defend themselves or have the judge hear their side of the story. What you are describing this system as is very similar to someone who is blackmailed is then put on the stand. However, imagine if they could not spam "I am blackmailed." This is precisely what is happening to these players. Honestly though, most of them are victims because I know for a fact gamethrowing is a rising problem. So long story short; don't actively accuse someone of gamethrowing even if they are gamethrowing. Just send a report, and hope all of the other legitimate players do as well. If you do make it public, then the gamethrowers will edge you on and make you angry; which in turn makes you post things in the comments section that may be a little too inappropriate. Next thing you know you've got 11 gamethrowers from that game alone reporting you for hateful/harassing speech or spamming and now you're perma banned with no possible way of restitution or due process. Seems pretty barbaric, right? All I am suggesting is a more fair trial system where both jurors and judges have to state a reason why the player is receiving the punishment they received and a chance to form a counterargument and defend themselves by showing physical evidence that they were only acting as any normal person would in the given situation. They can do this by selecting key days, or by using the "Snipping tool" to capture a screenshot of the game in question.
Well that's my two and a half cents on the matter. I hope to see this game survive and thrive in the future with a better criminal justice system.
Erik over and out.

[BasicFourLife]

Not claiming a role on the stand is always gamethrowing, so I don't see why the reported user's reasoning should have any influence whatsoever. Jurors check if the rules were broken, simple as that. If a person who got suspended has reasoning for it, they can post it on the Appeals forum.

A vote is already unbiased if a juror just follows the rules that are set, if anything, giving someone who was reported the chance to reason their way out of it only means jurors actually do get biased. There's nothing to "guess" or "assume" when rules are being broken, they either broke them, or they didn't.

Except when you are a Disguiser disguised as someone or a Jester. Or a role which has already won like an Exe.

[Flavorable]

LeoIvanov,
That is some great etiquette and an even better concern. I myself also have this concern as it does not give the (legal term) defendant a chance to defend themselves or have the judge hear their side of the story. What you are describing this system as is very similar to someone who is blackmailed is then put on the stand. However, imagine if they could not spam "I am blackmailed." This is precisely what is happening to these players. Honestly though, most of them are victims because I know for a fact gamethrowing is a rising problem. So long story short; don't actively accuse someone of gamethrowing even if they are gamethrowing. Just send a report, and hope all of the other legitimate players do as well. If you do make it public, then the gamethrowers will edge you on and make you angry; which in turn makes you post things in the comments section that may be a little too inappropriate. Next thing you know you've got 11 gamethrowers from that game alone reporting you for hateful/harassing speech or spamming and now you're perma banned with no possible way of restitution or due process. Seems pretty barbaric, right? All I am suggesting is a more fair trial system where both jurors and judges have to state a reason why the player is receiving the punishment they received and a chance to form a counterargument and defend themselves by showing physical evidence that they were only acting as any normal person would in the given situation. They can do this by selecting key days, or by using the "Snipping tool" to capture a screenshot of the game in question.
Well that's my two and a half cents on the matter. I hope to see this game survive and thrive in the future with a better criminal justice system.
Erik over and out.

Jurors and Judges already have access to the entire game in the form of a game log. Anything that's being said can be read.
Add to that the fact that a reported user can PM TrialBot to see what they were suspended or banned for AND there is an extended rules guide available (bit.do/ToS-Rules) to check out the rules explained in more detail. A person's rebuttal in this should have no impact. Other people's behavior should not excuse someone from breaking the rules themselves. If people get so angry about something that they feel they need to break the rules to feel bettet about a situation, I highly urge to stop playing until they've calmed down, or to learn how to let things go quietly and just report the other offenders.

[KingArmaan]

I agree with this idea, it allows the reported users to give an explanation. e.g if they left a game, and that's the fifth time they have left, if they can give a good explanation that can help make their report innocent. e.g they played 500 games and left 30 due to connection problems, they can give a good explanation that they left due to connection problems. Giving a short defence is not bad at all.
/Support

[KingArmaan]

LeoIvanov,
That is some great etiquette and an even better concern. I myself also have this concern as it does not give the (legal term) defendant a chance to defend themselves or have the judge hear their side of the story. What you are describing this system as is very similar to someone who is blackmailed is then put on the stand. However, imagine if they could not spam "I am blackmailed." This is precisely what is happening to these players. Honestly though, most of them are victims because I know for a fact gamethrowing is a rising problem. So long story short; don't actively accuse someone of gamethrowing even if they are gamethrowing. Just send a report, and hope all of the other legitimate players do as well. If you do make it public, then the gamethrowers will edge you on and make you angry; which in turn makes you post things in the comments section that may be a little too inappropriate. Next thing you know you've got 11 gamethrowers from that game alone reporting you for hateful/harassing speech or spamming and now you're perma banned with no possible way of restitution or due process. Seems pretty barbaric, right? All I am suggesting is a more fair trial system where both jurors and judges have to state a reason why the player is receiving the punishment they received and a chance to form a counterargument and defend themselves by showing physical evidence that they were only acting as any normal person would in the given situation. They can do this by selecting key days, or by using the "Snipping tool" to capture a screenshot of the game in question.
Well that's my two and a half cents on the matter. I hope to see this game survive and thrive in the future with a better criminal justice system.
Erik over and out.

Jurors and Judges already have access to the entire game in the form of a game log. Anything that's being said can be read.
Add to that the fact that a reported user can PM TrialBot to see what they were suspended or banned for AND there is an extended rules guide available (bit.do/ToS-Rules) to check out the rules explained in more detail. A person's rebuttal in this should have no impact. Other people's behavior should not excuse someone from breaking the rules themselves. If people get so angry about something that they feel they need to break the rules to feel bettet about a situation, I highly urge to stop playing until they've calmed down, or to learn how to let things go quietly and just report the other offenders.

Yeah but some things cannot be understood just be reading the chat log, e.g what strategy the person had in their mind at that time. Also as said by CommonEttiquette, lets say a person left a game due to connection problems and like 10 people report him. There is a good chance of him getting suspended, because the juror only saw that person leaving, and 10 reports against them and did not hear what the accused had to say, they most likely guilty them, so a short defence is not really a problem, its just a help that helps the juror to see both sides of the story.

[Meandrina]

Even if you have connection issues, the result is the same. You left the game hindering your team. If you have connection issues, maybe you shouldn't play. I know my net goes weird when it's raining, so I avoid playing then.
I agree with flavor, the reason is invalid. If you broke the rule, you get punished. If there is something extremely rare that you feel the need to explain, then you can appeal.
You could tell the person you are reporting them in game and that often gives them a "chance to explain" but more often it just leads to flaming.
Either way, trial system works on facts... Here's the gamelog, let the evidence speak for itself. It is very easy for people to lie after the fact to try to excuse their behavior and we have seen it many times, just read through some appeals.

[KingArmaan]

Even if you have connection issues, the result is the same. You left the game hindering your team. If you have connection issues, maybe you shouldn't play. I know my net goes weird when it's raining, so I avoid playing then.
I agree with flavor, the reason is invalid. If you broke the rule, you get punished. If there is something extremely rare that you feel the need to explain, then you can appeal.
You could tell the person you are reporting them in game and that often gives them a "chance to explain" but more often it just leads to flaming.
Either way, trial system works on facts... Here's the gamelog, let the evidence speak for itself. It is very easy for people to lie after the fact to try to excuse their behavior and we have seen it many times, just read through some appeals.

You can only appeal after you are banned/suspended, which itself is a great deal. Obviously I'm not saying that the judge should blindly believe them. As for connection problems, sometimes they are sudden. Like there's a person who just joined a Ranked game as Jailor and suddenly his connection broke. Day 2, he suicides and Town is like "Why Jailor?" "Report Jailor" and he like 10 reports against him and gets banned. Now just because they have occaisonal connection problems, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't play the game

Additionally, it would be better if the jurors/judges could also get the statistics of the reported player(e.g How many games he played, won and lost). That would really help, as if someone actually played 200 and left 10, he's most likely not an intentional leaver. This could also help the juror identify whether the defense is genuine or not.

To sum up: A small defense with some player statistics(which is my own addition), would only help the trial system when it comes to Leaving/Gamethrowing reports, which can be ambiguous at times due to the jurors/judges and other players not knowing what is going on at the reported players end.

[DBrock01]

Nah.

First off, very few people know when they have reports filed against them, so this feature would be mostly unused.

Secondly, I'm not going to put a lot (any) stock in what someone who is extremely biased has to say. If something isn't obvious in the logs I'm probably going to inno with exception anyway, so having reported players attempt to clear up what happened isn't going to change the verdict.

Trial system isn't like a courtroom, there is no prosecutor or defense. There is only impartial evidence and unbiased jurors and judges.

Of course, showing more info is always great (would be nice to see how many games played people have, for example), but I don't think allowing players to comment on their own reports would be helpful.

(BTW, this definitely would not be implemented for a while, and BMG is supposedly going to implement an automated leaver penalty system, so people commenting about how they lost connection wouldn't be relevant).

[KingArmaan]

Nah.

First off, very few people know when they have reports filed against them, so this feature would be mostly unused.

Secondly, I'm not going to put a lot (any) stock in what someone who is extremely biased has to say. If something isn't obvious in the logs I'm probably going to inno with exception anyway, so having reported players attempt to clear up what happened isn't going to change the verdict.

Trial system isn't like a courtroom, there is no prosecutor or defense. There is only impartial evidence and unbiased jurors and judges.

Of course, showing more info is always great (would be nice to see how many games played people have, for example), but I don't think allowing players to comment on their own reports would be helpful.

(BTW, this definitely would not be implemented for a while, and BMG is supposedly going to implement an automated leaver penalty system, so people commenting about how they lost connection wouldn't be relevant).

I have already supported the automated leaving penalty system idea in my previous posts as it is very helpful, and agree with this. Also while jurors may not be biased, every player has a different strategy in Town of Salem, and some may consider other's strategy as game throwing at times as well. I am only saying to use the defense as a short explanation the user can give, after that no one can reply to that defense or create a counter-defense, as that would obviously create an argument.