Has BMG taken a poll regarding Coven?

[Villagerlover]

The things is that roles can't be balanced solely on a mode that generally isn't played.

Right now, at least for All/Any, the roles seem balanced enough. A good Ranked/RP list can be made as soon as it's regularly played and people regularly show concerns about the same thing.

The problem is not the list.

Then what is the problem? It's not helpful to just say "UNBALANCED" and then not clarify at all.

I don’t care enough to explain.

Hidden, it's your blatant crudeness like this that gives you a bad reputation. If you're going to shit on something, then at least explain yourself. Otherwise you'll just look pathetic.

[Flavorable]

The things is that roles can't be balanced solely on a mode that generally isn't played.

Right now, at least for All/Any, the roles seem balanced enough. A good Ranked/RP list can be made as soon as it's regularly played and people regularly show concerns about the same thing.

The problem is not the list.

Then what is the problem? It's not helpful to just say "UNBALANCED" and then not clarify at all.

I don’t care enough to explain.

Hidden, it's your blatant crudeness like this that gives you a bad reputation. If you're going to shit on something, then at least explain yourself. Otherwise you'll just look pathetic.

Let me explain. Every role in Coven, with few exceptions, is awful.

Town:
Spoiler: Crusader - uh???? This is a TK. It kills people almost every night, without restraint and (almost) without control. It's more swingy than a veteran, which is also a pretty good candidate for town power. Relies on RNG 100% of the time.

Trapper - the basic concept isn't bad. if we're gonna remove ret and add town power, with some tweaks (and by that I mean a nerf nuke) it could work.

Tracker - i mean, it's a vanilla role, so sure.

Psychic - literally takes zero skill to play. it gets spoonfed passive information, thus leaving no skill cieling.

Mafia:

Spoiler: Ambusher - why. mafia tactical is now 100% unusable as it relies on having one kill per night. strays from the devs promise to and mafia's foundation of having one kill per night.

Hypnotist - no credit was given to the creator of the role. kinda too late to fix that, but whatever. otherwise works.


oof topic but wtf is the poitn of having mafia roles in a dlc based around an entirely new faction?

Neutral:

Spoiler: Guardian Angel - could be done far better. relies on rng, and has too easy a fallback. the role is mediocre at best, and while it works in nb the concept could be better applied to other roles.

Pirate - no. make a valid strategy as pirate, and you'll figure out why. (spoilers: you can't)

Plague/Pesti - it's like this role was designed to go from 0 to 100. if you nerfed it down some and made it an nk, it might work fine as a ww replacement.

Juggernaut - let's jugger-not. literally the worst nk i can think of. it's literally just an sk with a gimmick, like guardian angel mediocre and tiring.

Coven:

Spoiler: Necronomicon - seems arbitrary. pestilence uses the countdown mechanic far better, and the buff mechanic could also be used better.

Coven Leader - witch*

Medusa - 3-shot vet? contgributes to ceven's swinginess as their kill power is based on rng, by far moreso than the other roles since it can kill more than one person per night.

PM - kill power makes it swingy, as mafia games were foudned on a rolelist balanced around a set killing power, at least by factions. doesn't have any true use for the heal that hypnotist can't.

Hex Master - ok, so you have an alien. swingy as the faction's kill power is undeterminable. it's a lot easier to hex everyone when you have two killers as opposed to none.

Poisoner - necronomicon doesn't allow for counterplay. contributes to the factional swing.

Necromancer - it...aint great. it ain't bad, but it's not something worth keeping when the rest of the faction is crappy. just klepto, which is already a weaker witch.

overall, it's gimmicky and stupid. i think players realize this which is why it isn't played that much.

To be fair, everything you said it purely opinion, I don't see much factual evidence here. For example, you say GA is RNG? How so? It's protecting your target and learning to scumread. I don't get how it's RNG? You claim the same about Crusader, which is also not reliant on RNG, but moreso (again) on skill, scumreading and knowing when to be where and informing other important roles about your whereabouts beforehand.

I still see no actual incentive here to have to rebalance any roles. At least not when it comes to All/Any.

[Achilles]

The things is that roles can't be balanced solely on a mode that generally isn't played.

Right now, at least for All/Any, the roles seem balanced enough. A good Ranked/RP list can be made as soon as it's regularly played and people regularly show concerns about the same thing.

The problem is not the list.

Then what is the problem? It's not helpful to just say "UNBALANCED" and then not clarify at all.

I don’t care enough to explain.

Hidden, it's your blatant crudeness like this that gives you a bad reputation. If you're going to shit on something, then at least explain yourself. Otherwise you'll just look pathetic.

Let me explain. Every role in Coven, with few exceptions, is awful.

Town:
Spoiler: Crusader - uh???? This is a TK. It kills people almost every night, without restraint and (almost) without control. It's more swingy than a veteran, which is also a pretty good candidate for town power. Relies on RNG 100% of the time.

Trapper - the basic concept isn't bad. if we're gonna remove ret and add town power, with some tweaks (and by that I mean a nerf nuke) it could work.

Tracker - i mean, it's a vanilla role, so sure.

Psychic - literally takes zero skill to play. it gets spoonfed passive information, thus leaving no skill cieling.

Mafia:

Spoiler: Ambusher - why. mafia tactical is now 100% unusable as it relies on having one kill per night. strays from the devs promise to and mafia's foundation of having one kill per night.

Hypnotist - no credit was given to the creator of the role. kinda too late to fix that, but whatever. otherwise works.


oof topic but wtf is the poitn of having mafia roles in a dlc based around an entirely new faction?

Neutral:

Spoiler: Guardian Angel - could be done far better. relies on rng, and has too easy a fallback. the role is mediocre at best, and while it works in nb the concept could be better applied to other roles.

Pirate - no. make a valid strategy as pirate, and you'll figure out why. (spoilers: you can't)

Plague/Pesti - it's like this role was designed to go from 0 to 100. if you nerfed it down some and made it an nk, it might work fine as a ww replacement.

Juggernaut - let's jugger-not. literally the worst nk i can think of. it's literally just an sk with a gimmick, like guardian angel mediocre and tiring.

Coven:

Spoiler: Necronomicon - seems arbitrary. pestilence uses the countdown mechanic far better, and the buff mechanic could also be used better.

Coven Leader - witch*

Medusa - 3-shot vet? contgributes to ceven's swinginess as their kill power is based on rng, by far moreso than the other roles since it can kill more than one person per night.

PM - kill power makes it swingy, as mafia games were foudned on a rolelist balanced around a set killing power, at least by factions. doesn't have any true use for the heal that hypnotist can't.

Hex Master - ok, so you have an alien. swingy as the faction's kill power is undeterminable. it's a lot easier to hex everyone when you have two killers as opposed to none.

Poisoner - necronomicon doesn't allow for counterplay. contributes to the factional swing.

Necromancer - it...aint great. it ain't bad, but it's not something worth keeping when the rest of the faction is crappy. just klepto, which is already a weaker witch.

overall, it's gimmicky and stupid. i think players realize this which is why it isn't played that much.

To be fair, everything you said it purely opinion, I don't see much factual evidence here. For example, you say GA is RNG? How so? It's protecting your target and learning to scumread. I don't get how it's RNG? You claim the same about Crusader, which is also not reliant on RNG, but moreso (again) on skill, scumreading and knowing when to be where and informing other important roles about your whereabouts beforehand.

I still see no actual incentive here to have to rebalance any roles. At least not when it comes to All/Any.

Guardian Angel is RNG because it's target is based off RNG. Crusader is RNG because who it kills isn't someone you have control over.

And you can't really use "this is your opinion" as an argument if you don't have a better one.

.

Clearly Coven just isn’t for you and that’s okay. I’ll focus on the people who enjoy Coven but have some role improvements or a few critiques. If you don’t like a majority of the roles then I don’t think I could ever please you. Sorry.

[Bodhrak]

Clearly Coven just isn’t for you and that’s okay. I’ll focus on the people who enjoy Coven but have some role improvements or a few critiques. If you don’t like a majority of the roles then I don’t think I could ever please you. Sorry.

He does have a point though. Like half of the roles even break the guidelines for concepts not to make on our own role idea forum. RNG-roles, visitor roles, independent mafia killer and so on.

It actually seems like the roles where created with the chaos modes VIP/Lovers and All/Any in mind - which isn't that bad. Chaos modes don't have to be balanced.
But why then even have this illusion that there will be a balanced ranked with Coven?

[Bodhrak]

If I recall correctly, the list of guidelines for Role Ideas is not official in any way with BMG itself. It's just a list made by people in role ideas, but not looked at or approved by the developers at all, so it's not really a fair argument to say that the devs are going against a list they do not refer to.

I never said it was official. The guidelines still make a lot of sense. They were collected over time and should be followed if you want to create balanced roles / avoid making the same suggestions that have been dismissed countless times.

BMG not following this when creating Coven means one of two things:
1. They don't actually care about our suggestions at all. That would be sad. And inefficient.
2. The intent with Coven was never to create balanced roles but just more roles to fill up All/Any or create dedicated modes that have their own sense of balance (like VIP). That's ok, but why then have Coven Ranked set up?

[Aureolin1]

The things is that roles can't be balanced solely on a mode that generally isn't played.

Right now, at least for All/Any, the roles seem balanced enough. A good Ranked/RP list can be made as soon as it's regularly played and people regularly show concerns about the same thing.

The problem is not the list.

Then what is the problem? It's not helpful to just say "UNBALANCED" and then not clarify at all.

I don’t care enough to explain.

Hidden, it's your blatant crudeness like this that gives you a bad reputation. If you're going to shit on something, then at least explain yourself. Otherwise you'll just look pathetic.

Let me explain. Every role in Coven, with few exceptions, is awful.

Town:
Spoiler: Crusader - uh???? This is a TK. It kills people almost every night, without restraint and (almost) without control. It's more swingy than a veteran, which is also a pretty good candidate for town power. Relies on RNG 100% of the time.
Crus is the best Town Protective in the game. It's essentially a Doctor with the power to kill. It's only fair that a role of such magnitude would have a catch. Imagine how OP Crusader would be if it did not kill Townies. It forces you to think about the people you are protecting and make skillful plays instead of mindless ones.

Trapper - the basic concept isn't bad. if we're gonna remove ret and add town power, with some tweaks (and by that I mean a nerf nuke) it could work.
What does Ret have to do with anything? Trapper is a better BG, but again, it breeds more careful thought because traps can trigger so easily. I fail to see your issue here.

Tracker - i mean, it's a vanilla role, so sure.

Psychic - literally takes zero skill to play. it gets spoonfed passive information, thus leaving no skill cieling.
Sure, I can agree here. I have the same gripe with Pirate... I'm not a fan of luck based roles. However, you still must know what to do with the information that is given to you. It's very healthy for games. It gives me an excuse to VFR without getting bitched at. The more information available to the town, the better off they will be. Psychic visions reveal claims, thus being the bonus information.

Mafia:

Spoiler: Ambusher - why. mafia tactical is now 100% unusable as it relies on having one kill per night. strays from the devs promise to and mafia's foundation of having one kill per night.
"Mafia Tactical" is not in game. BMG can't cater to the Testing Grounds' every wish. The Mafia need more firepower to combat the Coven roles and the new Town roles. Ambusher is awesome in theory, I just wish that the message "you saw x prepare an ambush while visiting your target" would be removed. Lookouts and Trackers are enough to catch Ambushers, IMO. This message is unnecessary and unfair. But, you neglect to mention that completely and go off on some mini tangent about 1KPN.

Hypnotist - no credit was given to the creator of the role. kinda too late to fix that, but whatever. otherwise works.
Again, no constructive criticism with the role itself.

oof topic but wtf is the poitn of having mafia roles in a dlc based around an entirely new faction?
I don't see you complaining about the new Town and Neutral additions in this manner. There's more appeal to the DLC than just 6 Coven roles. Who would buy it just for that? Certainly not as many as we currently have now.

Neutral:

Spoiler: Guardian Angel - could be done far better. relies on rng, and has too easy a fallback. the role is mediocre at best, and while it works in nb the concept could be better applied to other roles.
LOL. Relies on RNG!? Does Executioner rely on RNG too, since you can't choose your target or their role?

Pirate - no. make a valid strategy as pirate, and you'll figure out why. (spoilers: you can't)
kyuss420 wrote a wonderful guide on how to successfully win as Pirate. I personally still don't like it because the winning condition itself relies on luck, but he proved there's ways to help your situation.

Plague/Pesti - it's like this role was designed to go from 0 to 100. if you nerfed it down some and made it an nk, it might work fine as a ww replacement.
WW replacement is interesting, but then that leaves SK with jack shit, making the NK alignment swingy. Pest itself is a payoff for being weak early game as PB.

Juggernaut - let's jugger-not. literally the worst nk i can think of. it's literally just an sk with a gimmick, like guardian angel mediocre and tiring.
Jugg in concept is sweet but he's too weak early game. He's also more comparable to WW than SK. Here we go again, you trash the role but don't care to explain why you think so. Why is it the worst NK?

Coven:

Spoiler: Necronomicon - seems arbitrary. pestilence uses the countdown mechanic far better, and the buff mechanic could also be used better.
Arbitrary... how? It's essentially the Full Moon for Coven, so what does Pest have to do with this? Maybe I could understand distaste for the Necron if every Coven member got it N3, but that's clearly not the case.

Coven Leader - witch*
Your point?

Medusa - 3-shot vet? contgributes to ceven's swinginess as their kill power is based on rng, by far moreso than the other roles since it can kill more than one person per night.
"3 shot Vet." Uhhhh? You make it sound as if it's a Vet with more/less alerts than the original role, but it isn't. Medusa also isn't RNG based... you make a conscious decision whether or not to visit the Medusa, just as one would with the Veteran.

PM - kill power makes it swingy, as mafia games were foudned on a rolelist balanced around a set killing power, at least by factions. doesn't have any true use for the heal that hypnotist can't.
This isn't Mafia. Coven was founded on killing power, not deception. Often times, the PM is one of the only roles that gets a kill before the Necronomicon starts. I don't think that's swingy. It's a nice balance for the temporary weakness of the other roles.

Hex Master - ok, so you have an alien. swingy as the faction's kill power is undeterminable. it's a lot easier to hex everyone when you have two killers as opposed to none.
I think you underestimate the amount of times the Unstoppable hex actually happens. If you wanna shit on HM there's better ways to do that but alright

Poisoner - necronomicon doesn't allow for counterplay. contributes to the factional swing.
A GA can still heal poison, even if Poisoner has the Necronomicon. However, I don't like that Doc is a hard counter. Additionally, the Poisoner is one of and if not the last Coven members to get the Necronomicon. At the point in the game, Poisoner will need all the help he can get. Maybe it doesn't allow for counterplay, but I've never actually seen a Poisoner make it to the very end of the game because it's just like the old Arso douses, you could weed out potential poisoners by asking who was or wasn't poisoned.

Necromancer - it...aint great. it ain't bad, but it's not something worth keeping when the rest of the faction is crappy. just klepto, which is already a weaker witch.
I still have yet to see what makes the other roles "crappy." And, why would its own existence have to be removed because of lame faction roles? If we think Invest is cool, but the rest of the TI suck, does that mean Invest has to go? It's also more than just a Witch. Ghouls are epic and you can save a dead BG's protection for late game if you need to use him against a Werewolf. Necro opens up possibility for so many neat plays. What makes it mediocre besides being reliant on the graveyard for kill power?

overall, it's gimmicky and stupid. i think players realize this which is why it isn't played that much.

I must say, for someone who constantly trashes Coven and demands it be scrapped, I expected more from you. Quite frankly these "complaints" are pathetic. It isn't played much because of... a paywall. And even then, I would argue that the Coven DLC gets plenty of love. Players I know love the roles.
I've left my two cents on most roles in your spoilers.

[Bodhrak]

Let me explain. Every role in Coven, with few exceptions, is awful.

Town:
Spoiler: Crusader - uh???? This is a TK. It kills people almost every night, without restraint and (almost) without control. It's more swingy than a veteran, which is also a pretty good candidate for town power. Relies on RNG 100% of the time.
Crus is the best Town Protective in the game. It's essentially a Doctor with the power to kill. It's only fair that a role of such magnitude would have a catch. Imagine how OP Crusader would be if it did not kill Townies. It forces you to think about the people you are protecting and make skillful plays instead of mindless ones.
Crus doesn't allow skillful plays at all. The only way to play it is to go on a player specifically asking for crus or announcing your target. Anything else is just asking for dead townies unless it's very far into the game. Playing silently even if you guess Evils targets you may still kill an also visiting town - it comes down to RNG.

Psychic - literally takes zero skill to play. it gets spoonfed passive information, thus leaving no skill cieling.
Sure, I can agree here. I have the same gripe with Pirate... I'm not a fan of luck based roles. However, you still must know what to do with the information that is given to you. It's very healthy for games. It gives me an excuse to VFR without getting bitched at. The more information available to the town, the better off they will be. Psychic visions reveal claims, thus being the bonus information.
What to do with the information? How about post it? Psy could literally be played by an AI and it made no difference. (You are still a Citizen obviously).
Mafia:

Spoiler: Ambusher - why. mafia tactical is now 100% unusable as it relies on having one kill per night. strays from the devs promise to and mafia's foundation of having one kill per night.
"Mafia Tactical" is not in game. BMG can't cater to the Testing Grounds' every wish. The Mafia need more firepower to combat the Coven roles and the new Town roles. Ambusher is awesome in theory, I just wish that the message "you saw x prepare an ambush while visiting your target" would be removed. Lookouts and Trackers are enough to catch Ambushers, IMO. This message is unnecessary and unfair. But, you neglect to mention that completely and go off on some mini tangent about 1KPN.
Mafia simply shouldn't have more than 1 KPN. The reveal mechanic also makes it super swingy. Like you could kill without being seen or be detected by various people.

Neutral:

Spoiler: Guardian Angel - could be done far better. relies on rng, and has too easy a fallback. the role is mediocre at best, and while it works in nb the concept could be better applied to other roles.
LOL. Relies on RNG!? Does Executioner rely on RNG too, since you can't choose your target or their role?
Yes, Exe, relies on RNG. Good luck winning if you roll Veteran or Transporter as your target. Your only chance is betting on Evil mayority.

Pirate - no. make a valid strategy as pirate, and you'll figure out why. (spoilers: you can't)
kyuss420 wrote a wonderful guide on how to successfully win as Pirate. I personally still don't like it because the winning condition itself relies on luck, but he proved there's ways to help your situation.
That guide just tells you what the afk choice is and to look for known names and remember their choices. So it comes down to only work on the small playerbase VIP has. Still an RNG role.

Plague/Pesti - it's like this role was designed to go from 0 to 100. if you nerfed it down some and made it an nk, it might work fine as a ww replacement.
WW replacement is interesting, but then that leaves SK with jack shit, making the NK alignment swingy. Pest itself is a payoff for being weak early game as PB.
To me PB is just another RNG role. You can't control the visits, you can't even control how many visiting roles there are in a game. Once they are pestilence, the winning chance is like 30%. Way too high for my taste.

Juggernaut - let's jugger-not. literally the worst nk i can think of. it's literally just an sk with a gimmick, like guardian angel mediocre and tiring.
Jugg in concept is sweet but he's too weak early game. He's also more comparable to WW than SK. Here we go again, you trash the role but don't care to explain why you think so. Why is it the worst NK?
Maybe because they don't have an Invest result. Maybe because they are super swingy. Maybe because it's more RNG dependent than WW.

Coven:

Spoiler: Coven Leader - witch*
Your point?
It's not a new role at all?

Medusa - 3-shot vet? contgributes to ceven's swinginess as their kill power is based on rng, by far moreso than the other roles since it can kill more than one person per night.
"3 shot Vet." Uhhhh? You make it sound as if it's a Vet with more/less alerts than the original role, but it isn't. Medusa also isn't RNG based... you make a conscious decision whether or not to visit the Medusa, just as one would with the Veteran.
You don't know who the medusa is. So it's just RNG, esp. the first two nights. I have seen medusa kill noone and die (CL witched Vig into them, Vig was healed) and I have seen them kill 4 people in 2 nights. No they didn't bait. Just got lucky.

PM - kill power makes it swingy, as mafia games were foudned on a rolelist balanced around a set killing power, at least by factions. doesn't have any true use for the heal that hypnotist can't.
This isn't Mafia. Coven was founded on killing power, not deception. Often times, the PM is one of the only roles that gets a kill before the Necronomicon starts. I don't think that's swingy. It's a nice balance for the temporary weakness of the other roles.
Don't assume VIP here. Coven should always get at least 1 KPN with CL witching targets into Medusa. PM adds to that, while also being a Consig. Poisoner or Necro can add to that.

Hex Master - ok, so you have an alien. swingy as the faction's kill power is undeterminable. it's a lot easier to hex everyone when you have two killers as opposed to none.
I think you underestimate the amount of times the Unstoppable hex actually happens. If you wanna shit on HM there's better ways to do that but alright
TBH the unstoppable attack is very rare. But that is because the Coven modes are designed to be slower. If you assume a Coven Ranked you will also have a NK which adds to kills.

Poisoner - necronomicon doesn't allow for counterplay. contributes to the factional swing.
A GA can still heal poison, even if Poisoner has the Necronomicon. However, I don't like that Doc is a hard counter. Additionally, the Poisoner is one of and if not the last Coven members to get the Necronomicon. At the point in the game, Poisoner will need all the help he can get. Maybe it doesn't allow for counterplay, but I've never actually seen a Poisoner make it to the very end of the game because it's just like the old Arso douses, you could weed out potential poisoners by asking who was or wasn't poisoned.
With Doc being a hard counter this role is super swingy. If you have a Doc, this role is pretty much bordering on useless. If you don't its free KPN.

overall, it's gimmicky and stupid. i think players realize this which is why it isn't played that much.

I must say, for someone who constantly trashes Coven and demands it be scrapped, I expected more from you. Quite frankly these "complaints" are pathetic. It isn't played much because of... a paywall. And even then, I would argue that the Coven DLC gets plenty of love. Players I know love the roles.
I've left my two cents on most roles in your spoilers.

Answers in spoilers. I am bored. Don't judge.
The reason why players like the roles is because they work in the environment they are played. Which is VIP/Lovers, which is All/Any.
They may even like the roles BECAUSE they are so much RNG. RNG can create weird scenarios. It gives somthing to discuss. It can be fun.

[Achilles]

Balancing for ranked and making fun roles can be opposing goals sometimes. We can exclude certain roles from ranked so that both casual and competitive users get what they want.

Some of the critiques seem a little elitist, as if nothing outside of ranked matters but game modes like All Any are very popular.

[EpicEmperor]

The things is that roles can't be balanced solely on a mode that generally isn't played.

Right now, at least for All/Any, the roles seem balanced enough. A good Ranked/RP list can be made as soon as it's regularly played and people regularly show concerns about the same thing.

The problem is not the list.

Then what is the problem? It's not helpful to just say "UNBALANCED" and then not clarify at all.

I don’t care enough to explain.

Hidden, it's your blatant crudeness like this that gives you a bad reputation. If you're going to shit on something, then at least explain yourself. Otherwise you'll just look pathetic.

Let me explain. Every role in Coven, with few exceptions, is awful.

Town:
Spoiler: Crusader - uh???? This is a TK. It kills people almost every night, without restraint and (almost) without control. It's more swingy than a veteran, which is also a pretty good candidate for town power. Relies on RNG 100% of the time.
Crus is the best Town Protective in the game. It's essentially a Doctor with the power to kill. It's only fair that a role of such magnitude would have a catch. Imagine how OP Crusader would be if it did not kill Townies. It forces you to think about the people you are protecting and make skillful plays instead of mindless ones. that isn't remotely my issue here, i can't tell if you're intentioally misrepping my argument but for the sake of benefit of the doubt. EVERY play is mindless, because you don't have control over who you can kill. it kills every night, indiscriminately with no control. there's no real valid strategies you can make, there's nothing because of the rng factor. and it also swings the game as it adds killing power in a slot not balanced for such killing power. The original argument here seems to have the fallacy of composition- "The visitor the crusader attacks is RNG, so the WHOLE ROLE is RNG!" -even though it depends on much more than that. Judging who to visit is a huge part of crusader, and honestly adds more risk and reward to who is visited, as you could kill one of your own if you don't play well. It adds a new aspect to TP: Consequences of failure. (Note that makes skill have a greater impact, thereof I argue that it balances out the honestly minuscule RNG in what visitor you kill.) However, I am not arguing that eliminating that randomness wouldn't help the role, as I would fully support an order of precedence on who the crusader kills, judging on how "powerful" the general consensus of the role is.

Trapper - the basic concept isn't bad. if we're gonna remove ret and add town power, with some tweaks (and by that I mean a nerf nuke) it could work.
What does Ret have to do with anything? Trapper is a better BG, but again, it breeds more careful thought because traps can trigger so easily. I fail to see your issue here. my issue is that it's op. I simply can't find your backing for Trapper being OP. The counterargument was provided...

Tracker - i mean, it's a vanilla role, so sure.

Psychic - literally takes zero skill to play. it gets spoonfed passive information, thus leaving no skill cieling.
Sure, I can agree here. I have the same gripe with Pirate... I'm not a fan of luck based roles. However, you still must know what to do with the information that is given to you. It's very healthy for games. It gives me an excuse to VFR without getting bitched at. The more information available to the town, the better off they will be. Psychic visions reveal claims, thus being the bonus information. that's what i mean about "low skill ceiling". there's a very low skill level requerd to play the role effectively. even still, if you just reveal your info to the town each day - or even leave it in your will - then you've already solved half the game or so. I am in full support of replacing psy, but as stated earlier VFR would be the most obvious replacement for the function psy serves, so make sure to let the public know that VFR IS GENERALLY A GOOD STRATEGY.

Mafia:

Spoiler: Ambusher - why. mafia tactical is now 100% unusable as it relies on having one kill per night. strays from the devs promise to and mafia's foundation of having one kill per night.
"Mafia Tactical" is not in game. BMG can't cater to the Testing Grounds' every wish. The Mafia need more firepower to combat the Coven roles and the new Town roles. Ambusher is awesome in theory, I just wish that the message "you saw x prepare an ambush while visiting your target" would be removed. Lookouts and Trackers are enough to catch Ambushers, IMO. This message is unnecessary and unfair. But, you neglect to mention that completely and go off on some mini tangent about 1KPN. they literally don'tmbecause nobody plays with them. and that's literally the whole point of ambusher. factions that have more than one ikll per night should be abalcned aroudn such. and mafia tactical is a staple in literallye very other mafia game. I'm not going to die defending Ambusher, because I personally don't view it as a very good role -violating the KPN rule that I am kind of in support of. However, it could be argued that Ambusher's purpose is not to give extra kills, but to discourage and punish metas, making it work functionally like a rod poking the donkey in the right direction, if you see the analogy.

Hypnotist - no credit was given to the creator of the role. kinda too late to fix that, but whatever. otherwise works.
Again, no constructive criticism with the role itself. because it's a good role. just one that i created. good role is good.
oof topic but wtf is the poitn of having mafia roles in a dlc based around an entirely new faction?
I don't see you complaining about the new Town and Neutral additions in this manner. There's more appeal to the DLC than just 6 Coven roles. Who would buy it just for that? Certainly not as many as we currently have now. the game is not meant to contain more than one faction in a 15p setup. the wide wide majority of the time you'll either be playing with coven OR mafia. and since you bought a dlc titled "The Coven", most likely people want to play with Coven which has new roles every game. Money, Getting players into the mode, plenty of reasons. People like new stuff, i see no problem with that.

Neutral:

Spoiler: Guardian Angel - could be done far better. relies on rng, and has too easy a fallback. the role is mediocre at best, and while it works in nb the concept could be better applied to other roles.
LOL. Relies on RNG!? Does Executioner rely on RNG too, since you can't choose your target or their role? yes. hence my exe rework. Now I will die on this hill. It uses the same faulty claim as crusader- "The Target is RNG so the role is too." -even though how you play has a severely more significant role in deciding victory than one's role. Time of protection or attack are vital to victory or avoiding some possibly horrible ramifications.

Pirate - no. make a valid strategy as pirate, and you'll figure out why. (spoilers: you can't)
kyuss420 wrote a wonderful guide on how to successfully win as Pirate. I personally still don't like it because the winning condition itself relies on luck, but he proved there's ways to help your situation. send link, because i guarantee you there is no valid strategy with pirate since none of the things mean anything. kiki explains it better than i do: http://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/se ... r=Kikigiri Link is here, it's a few comments down: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=93977

Plague/Pesti - it's like this role was designed to go from 0 to 100. if you nerfed it down some and made it an nk, it might work fine as a ww replacement.
WW replacement is interesting, but then that leaves SK with jack shit, making the NK alignment swingy. Pest itself is a payoff for being weak early game as PB. sk will still liely be the sole strongest nk if pest was added. you have non idea how powerful that one kill a night is compared to pb's swinginess. i mean maybe it needs some nerfing down to work as nk but certainly not to be discounted. Werewolf is one of the most skill-based NK, so it need not be replaced. Both WW and PB focus on getting places people visit without being caught and slaughtered. Just make PB NK, the power of PB can be determined through testing, if you'd like to work with me on that. Getting people infected DOES depend on skill.

Juggernaut - let's jugger-not. literally the worst nk i can think of. it's literally just an sk with a gimmick, like guardian angel mediocre and tiring.
Jugg in concept is sweet but he's too weak early game. He's also more comparable to WW than SK. Here we go again, you trash the role but don't care to explain why you think so. Why is it the worst NK? because it isn't intresting or unique. it's mediocre and unoriginal. it, like ga, isn't the worst thing to ever happen. but still. I have not enough information or experience to argue this point well. I remain neutral.

Coven:

Spoiler: Necronomicon - seems arbitrary. pestilence uses the countdown mechanic far better, and the buff mechanic could also be used better.
Arbitrary... how? It's essentially the Full Moon for Coven, so what does Pest have to do with this? Maybe I could understand distaste for the Necron if every Coven member got it N3, but that's clearly not the case. it, like pestilence, is a countdown mechanic. you count down until x happens. but pest uses the mechanic better. Not really arbitrary, Countdown mechanics are fine, and "better" could either be argued against or simply called an opinion. If you could explain why, maybe we could have a debate on that?

Coven Leader - witch*
Your point?[color] i don't have one. [color=#0000FF]so cool beans, this must be an exception from "All coven roles being garbage" I assume?

Medusa - 3-shot vet? contgributes to ceven's swinginess as their kill power is based on rng, by far moreso than the other roles since it can kill more than one person per night.
"3 shot Vet." Uhhhh? You make it sound as if it's a Vet with more/less alerts than the original role, but it isn't. Medusa also isn't RNG based... you make a conscious decision whether or not to visit the Medusa, just as one would with the Veteran. oh true, you got me there. still very swingy. You seem to have a poor grasp on "Swingy." Dusabaiting depends who you kill for the most part, and it isn't RNG for someone to visit you, that's a decision made by the human mind that can link in from what you say, act like etc. RNG is not even close.

PM - kill power makes it swingy, as mafia games were foudned on a rolelist balanced around a set killing power, at least by factions. doesn't have any true use for the heal that hypnotist can't.
This isn't Mafia. Coven was founded on killing power, not deception. Often times, the PM is one of the only roles that gets a kill before the Necronomicon starts. I don't think that's swingy. It's a nice balance for the temporary weakness of the other roles. elaborate? As said, PM's ability to kill early works well for coven when they can't kill, especially when each coven member represents a few good kills later on ingame. Also, the heal use has plenty of use against NK, TK, Maf etc.

Hex Master - ok, so you have an alien. swingy as the faction's kill power is undeterminable. it's a lot easier to hex everyone when you have two killers as opposed to none.
I think you underestimate the amount of times the Unstoppable hex actually happens. If you wanna shit on HM there's better ways to do that but alright so you admit the role is bad. thanks I will not argue for HM in it's current state. Too deceptive, too Arsonist.

Poisoner - necronomicon doesn't allow for counterplay. contributes to the factional swing.
A GA can still heal poison, even if Poisoner has the Necronomicon. However, I don't like that Doc is a hard counter. Additionally, the Poisoner is one of and if not the last Coven members to get the Necronomicon. At the point in the game, Poisoner will need all the help he can get. Maybe it doesn't allow for counterplay, but I've never actually seen a Poisoner make it to the very end of the game because it's just like the old Arso douses, you could weed out potential poisoners by asking who was or wasn't poisoned. hardcounter =/= counterplay. counterplay just means there's some mechanic, non-swingy way to counteract the poinsoner. and you can just holdb ack for a night with poisoner and it'd hurt less than what you would with arso. Counterplay would be other TP, being able to kill Poisoner to stop it, etc. Doctor as of now is a hard counter. Maybe if doctor only Delayed the poison's death it would be more reasonable?

Necromancer - it...aint great. it ain't bad, but it's not something worth keeping when the rest of the faction is crappy. just klepto, which is already a weaker witch.
I still have yet to see what makes the other roles "crappy." And, why would its own existence have to be removed because of lame faction roles? If we think Invest is cool, but the rest of the TI suck, does that mean Invest has to go? It's also more than just a Witch. Ghouls are epic and you can save a dead BG's protection for late game if you need to use him against a Werewolf. Necro opens up possibility for so many neat plays. What makes it mediocre besides being reliant on the graveyard for kill power? you're mistaking faction for alignment. if we thought invest was cool, but every other town role sucked, invest would have to go - its presence doesn't justify an entire alignment. there's better ways to implement it. I mean 2 roles you haven't argued against at all, I'd personally begin a faction around that if it makes me money, BMG was in their right, and it made things more enjoyable for me for sure.

overall, it's gimmicky and stupid. i think players realize this which is why it isn't played that much.

I must say, for someone who constantly trashes Coven and demands it be scrapped, I expected more from you. sucks to be you then Quite frankly these "complaints" are pathetic. It isn't played much because of... a paywall. miss me with that. overwatch is 12 times htis game and its hella popular. Where is the argument here? Maybe social deception isn't as popular as FPS, or ToS isn't advertised well, or many other reasons for overwatch costing more and having more players. And even then, I would argue that the Coven DLC gets plenty of love. Players I know love the roles. your logical fallacy is: cherrypicking Either that or she's just arguing that SOME people love the roles, which "plenty" being an unspecific term could only be people she knows, rendering your "cherrypicking" comment pointless and invalid.
I've left my two cents on most roles in your spoilers.

responses in bold and italic

Comments left in blue

[shadeslayyyZ]

Gee Golly start playing coven only, I might think I bought coven for nothing please. Tarnation.

[CaleHusky]

I love Coven All Any, myself. I can't do well in Ranked.

Hell, when I get Serial Killer, I bide my time (Which twice now has turned into a mistake...Maybe I should stop?)