Changes coming soon.

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Changes coming soon.

Postby shapesifter13 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 2:55 pm

Hey Townies!

We wanted to get some feedback on some changes that we have planned for the future. Check them out below!

Ranked Practice List

We have had a lot of people asking when this will be added, and we have went through several iterations of trying to balance the ranked/ranked practice role list for The Coven. We feel that this list is pretty solid when comparing how coven did in other game modes, what the problems of the previous ranked role list were, and adjusting for how games might swing.

Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TP
TK(Maybe another Random Town?)
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Random Coven (maybe PM?)
Random Coven
Random Coven
NK
NE
Any(RT/RN hybrid?) We may think about experiment with hybrid possibilities, but we will see.

Yes, with this list there are 4 Coven which we think will stand a really solid chance against all the town in the list because of the different powers of Coven. There is tons of claim space in the list because of how many Random Town slots there are. This may make games seem more swingy, as some games you may just get a powerful town, but even in those games there should be enough claim space for the evils to have a chance. Claim space has always been the biggest problem in ranked, so we hope this will help. This list isn't set in stone, and we are open to suggestions. With the pre-season coming up we have a lot of room to play with different role lists without drastically affecting ranked players.


Spy Overhaul

We have plans to rework Spy that we are working through right now, but we thought we would open suggestions from the community as well. How would you like to see Spy changed? We definitely want to move away from seeing the night chats of Mafia, and we want spy to be useful against Coven as well. Let the ideas fly! This means you can even suggest a replacement role since Spy will have to be so dramatically reworked that it being a completely different role isn't really all that far off. Be sure that you are suggesting roles for a Town Investigative.

Hypnotist UI and what messages to show

Ok, so we might have goofed with the implementation of this role. Working with limited time we could not get this role to the point where it was as good as it could have been. We want to rectify this and add a whole UI to this role and give players the ability to select what message is shown to the player. This will allow for more calculated decision making on what message to show to have the optimal effect on the game. We also wanted to get your feedback on what messages you would like to be able to fake such as: You were attacked but healed, You were attacked but your defense value was too high, You were roleblocked, etc. Be sure to think of how you could use this message to manipulate the town, but also think of how this might out you and make your life harder as this role, such as showing the you were roleblocked message to an Invest will prove you as a role in the game because they will still get their invest results back.

Jailor execute reason note

One of the biggest complaints of this patch was surprisingly Jailor death notes. You all seem to really want to be able to explain why you executed someone, but we don't want you to be able to reveal information anonymously. We think the compromise to solve this is to have a note for why you executed a player. This will be a note that you can leave on executed players that will have check boxes for why you executed them. This lets us keep you from revealing information, but lets you explain why you executed someone. We would like some feedback on what reasons you would like included in this list such as: Didn't claim a role, was being toxic, claimed a role that wasn't possible, etc.

Thank you all for any feedback you give!

Edit: Clarified the Spy Overhaul a bit.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby alex1234321 » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:09 pm

Will the Classic Ranked rolelist be changed?

The biggest problem that I see with the Coven Ranked rolelist is that the Town should be the uninformed majority, not the plurality. I would prefer the Any slot to be replaced with another RT. Unless this would make the winrates unfair, then one of the Random Coven slots should be replaced with a fourth RT. Town would probably need some nerfs first though.

Since the Tracker was added, I would like for Spy to be replaced with a role that could spy on someone and see if they are part of the same alignment (Town/Mafia/Neutral) as the person that they targeted the previous night.

I am very happy about the Hypnotist change since RNG makes the game too luck based.

I think that the Jailor should get a regular death note since they could confirm themselves in other ways. Also, some people might have reasons for executing other than those that are listed. Even if you think that there will not be any other reasons, someone will always come up with some unexpected strategy. This is ToS, and anything could happen.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby Nellyfox » Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:16 pm

Amazing title. ;)

Only have input on Spy, which is either remove it completely, or allow mafia members to visit each other. Remove ability to see mafia chat if not done already (I'm behind on the most recent updates sorry). Tbh while it is my favorite role it is pretty powerful I wouldn't mind if it got removed.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby AgenteFuego » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:06 pm

About the ranked list

I really think the Coven should have a guaranteed Poisoner since it is the only Coven role who can reliably kill without the necronomicon (Coven Leader needs to find a killer, Hex Master needs to visit the whole town before attacking, Potion Master needs to wait 3 nights between kills, Medusa relies on the other factions visiting it and it's ability is limited to 3 uses and the Necromancer must wait for killers to die and most of them have basic defense). You could use the Coven Leader + Medusa combo too, but that requires 2 roles and you may end up killing Medusa (maybe Medusa could have basic defense when gazing).

The Mafia has their leader and their killer (Godfather and Mafioso) as guaranteed roles, I think it would be fair to do the same for the Coven. Killing power is needed for evil factions to survive. I suggest changing it to Coven Leader, Poisoner, Random Coven: 3 members and good killing power.

I would change TK and 4th Coven Member to RT.

About the spy

I honestly feel the Spy is a fun role to play, but it is OP. I made a post some time ago suggesting to replace him with The Inspector or The Scientist as these are 2 TI suggestions I like and think are balanced (I wouldn't want framer to ruin the scientist's whole stream of investigations like the suggestion says tho).

About the Hypnotist


I really think he should have access to every single feedback you can get, even the "You were attacked but someone fought off your attacker", because you never know how could these be used with different strategies and the players' creativity. If you must limit them tho, I suggest the following:

"You were attacked but healed", "You were attacked but your defense value was too high", "You were roleblocked", "You were controlled by a witch/coven leader" "You were transported", "You saw X prepare an ambush while visiting your target" (maybe pick a name here, that would be cool), "You were blackmailed", "Pestilence has been summoned".

About the jailor note

My suggestions: "Didn't claim a role", "Claimed a role that wasn't possible", "Refused to claim a role", "Claimed neutral and promised to help town, but I don't trust him/her", "Town Investigative says he/she is evil", "Claimed Jailor", "Gave up and claimed to be evil", "I'm taking a risk".


Thank you for making this post.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby Icibalus » Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:16 am

Replace Spy with Parity Cop. Remove chatreading and whisper reading. Congrats, the worst role in the meta is fixed. Glad you're finally listening to us with these changes, we've been telling you this for ages.

The ranked list is far too unbalanced.

It should be

CL
RC
RC for coven, and a lot more RTs.

As for jailer death notes, here would be my personal picks:

Didn't claim a role.
Was suspicious during the day.
Role claimed dosen't make sense.
Possible Jester

That would be good IMO.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby BlazinIce » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:52 am

Hypnotist shouldn't be able to fake witch messages, and should be able to clear all messages. Once per game, it should be able to fake amnesiac messages (or amnesiac message should be removed). Hypnotist should be able to fake every message except investigative results.
Also, Coven leader shouldn't be a more powerful Consigliere, and Witch should be able to be in-game with Coven. Town Power.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby Seruth » Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:52 pm

shapesifter13 wrote: snip
Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TP
TK(Maybe another Random Town?)
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Random Coven (maybe PM?)
Random Coven
Random Coven
NK
NE
Any(RT/RN hybrid?) We may think about experiment with hybrid possibilities, but we will see.
snip

HELL NO. Let me tell you about custom games I had...
with 4 coven, NK, (not NE, RN) and NINE (guranteed)town.
Town lost the vast majority of them.
This role list has one LESS town if things go south, and an equal amount of town if Any is somehow town. Coven has much more killing potential than Mafia. Then there is NK, too. If you are going to test this role list, you will surely notice a massive problem: Town winrate below 20%, possibly vastly below that. That is not even a good starting point.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby LindLTaylor » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:52 am

shapesifter13 wrote:
Spy Overhaul

We have plans to rework Spy that we are working through right now, but we thought we would open suggestions from the community as well. How would you like to see Spy changed? We definitely want to move away from seeing the night chats of Mafia, and we want spy to be useful against Coven as well. Let the ideas fly! This means you can even suggest a replacement role since Spy will have to be so dramatically reworked that it being a completely different role isn't really all that far off. Be sure that you are suggesting roles for a Town Investigative.


Spies are about gathering INTELLIGENCE and using that intel.

My idea to make Spy more "proactive":
SPY CAN SECRETLY WHISPER DURING THE DAY WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING (Only 2 or 3 chances, decide the night before)

Alternate idea:
Spy can send messages to a person of their choice at night (cannot receive messages, again limited to 2 or 3 chances only)


Please give the Spy update to the classic community too (people who don't have Coven). Will you?
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby lleti » Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:15 am

When are we hoping to see Ranked come into play for the Coven game mode?

Right now it's pretty irritating to join the custom games, and get loads of leavers/throwers because they didn't get the role they wanted to play. I get that you want to make changes to make sure Coven is in your perfect vision before Ranked comes into play - but would it not be easier to just run a "Season Zero" with ELO reset at the end?

I recall there was talk of having actual ranked seasons during the early days of Ranked's introduction of ToS - it'd be great to see this idea revived. Like with all competitive games, it's great to get a fresh slate to rank up with each season. Season Records also allow you to easily see how you've actually improved/fallen on a per-season basis, which is a good way to disprove the whole "elo hell" shiteology.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:22 pm

BlazinIce wrote:Hypnotist shouldn't be able to fake witch messages, and should be able to clear all messages. Once per game, it should be able to fake amnesiac messages (or amnesiac message should be removed). Hypnotist should be able to fake every message except investigative results.
Also, Coven leader shouldn't be a more powerful Consigliere, and Witch should be able to be in-game with Coven. Town Power.

I disagree with the first point, but agree with the rest. I think the Witch message should be added. With a CL in the game there's going to be two witched messages, so you can determine that one was fake and keep your result just in case. If there's no Witch or CL(assuming Witch gets put in) then you can't use it. It is a powerful message to fake, but only under certain circumstances.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:59 pm

The Jailor note thing in particular is a great idea.

The other topics will all be covered in my Coven suggestion megathread I'll post sometime this weekend (today, tomorrow, or Sunday). I'm finally gettingaround to doing it lol
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No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby Seruth » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:39 pm

I have opened a central ideas thread for spy changes/replacements in the Role Ideas forum:
http://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=68857
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby DragonClaw66 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:18 pm

The ranked Coven list looks fine. Keep the Town Killing as is. The Coven should be Coven Leader, Potion Master, Random Coven, and Random Coven. The Any is ok, but exclude Vampires (look at the last section of my reply).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just don't let the new Spy see Mafia visits. It's horribly overpowered.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is what Kirize12's Drug Dealer was meant to be. Good.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I honestly see no reason for this. The Jailor can explain at the end of the game why he/she executed specific people.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something I think should be added is the ability to add an option that excludes roles from specific categories. Example: Most players hate the Vampire (conversion roles are really bad) and want it removed from ranked. They say that Vampire should not be able to appear in the Any category. My idea is that the ranked rolelist will be the same except the Any category will gain an * and when hovered over, will show this: Any*[-Vampire]. This means that Vampire can't appear.

Link For More Details: https://www.blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=66649
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:41 pm

I don't see why Jailor shouldn't just get a normal death note. They could already confirm themself very easily, and many games have unique circumstances. For example, it is fairly common to execute someone who is being a general detriment to the Town, such as someone who is pushing for random lynches, regardless of whether they appear to be Town or not. The problem with including this and other reasons that can involve intentionally killing Townies is that gamethrowers could take advantage of those options and say it's okay to kill confirmed Townies.

Also, there will always be some other circumstances where someone needs to be executed but would not fit any of the reasons.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:43 pm

There could be an other option, and maybe when the Jailor dies or the game ends a box pops up where the Jailor's reasoning can be shown. Even if Jailor can confirm easily, what if a Janitor cleans them? Without a DN, the Janitor can try to claim it as a last-ditch effort, but if they confirmed with one it'd be too late.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:08 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:There could be an other option, and maybe when the Jailor dies or the game ends a box pops up where the Jailor's reasoning can be shown. Even if Jailor can confirm easily, what if a Janitor cleans them? Without a DN, the Janitor can try to claim it as a last-ditch effort, but if they confirmed with one it'd be too late.

The thing is that very few Jailors would confirm through their death note. If they want to reveal themselves, there are a number of other ways that they could do so that do not entail killing a potential ally.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:09 pm

It's just a precautionary measure, it also prevents them from anonymously communicating, "If X is Y role lynch Z"
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby orangeandblack5 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:54 pm

The reasoning note is definitely a great idea.
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:56 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:It's just a precautionary measure, it also prevents them from anonymously communicating, "If X is Y role lynch Z"

Why would they need to ask that anonymously?
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:58 pm

To not reveal as Jailor?
"X claimed Y role, but so did Z, if X is inno lynch Y" is what I should've said.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby lleti » Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:01 am

Still no news on Ranked Play?

How long do we have to wait until we can play a game without constant throwers and leavers?
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby TechnostarBTD5 » Sat Jun 10, 2017 7:19 pm

Spy needs to have a role in Coven, though it is too easy of a way to confirm someone's innocence from the mafia/coven. Perhaps the Spy can see messages from both the coven and mafia, but it is only informed of one visit from each per night. That way, while it can confirm that people are ns/gf much like the Sheriff, it is limited to one person per faction per night.
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby SexyNippleKiller » Sun Jun 11, 2017 8:01 am

shapesifter13 wrote:Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TP
TK(Maybe another Random Town?)
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Random Coven (maybe PM?)
Random Coven
Random Coven
NK
NE
Any(RT/RN hybrid?) We may think about experiment with hybrid possibilities, but we will see.


My personally idea for a role list is this one:
Jailor
TI
TI
TS
TP
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Potion Master (maybe PM?)
Random Coven
Random Coven
NC
NK
Random Neutral (or an Any, that excludes ALL Mafia, since that would be really sad)

(The Mafia version of this would be this:
GF, Ambusher, Maf Support and Maf Deception)
Removed Mafioso, since nobody want to be it. Sure it may help mafia not be dectected by jailor or rb, but the amusher will give mafia more kill power.

LindLTaylor wrote:
shapesifter13 wrote:
Spy Overhaul

We have plans to rework Spy that we are working through right now, but we thought we would open suggestions from the community as well. How would you like to see Spy changed? We definitely want to move away from seeing the night chats of Mafia, and we want spy to be useful against Coven as well. Let the ideas fly! This means you can even suggest a replacement role since Spy will have to be so dramatically reworked that it being a completely different role isn't really all that far off. Be sure that you are suggesting roles for a Town Investigative.


Spies are about gathering INTELLIGENCE and using that intel.

My idea to make Spy more "proactive":
SPY CAN SECRETLY WHISPER DURING THE DAY WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING (Only 2 or 3 chances, decide the night before)

Alternate idea:
Spy can send messages to a person of their choice at night (cannot receive messages, again limited to 2 or 3 chances only)

Please give the Spy update to the classic community too (people who don't have Coven). Will you?


This idea sounds really nice! Though the "SPY CAN SECRETLY WHISPER DURING THE DAY WITHOUT ANYONE KNOWING" should have a cap of maybe 2-3 messages per day (To prevent whispering unlimited), and maybe be activated during the day instead.
The Alternate one sounds fine too. But you should DEFINITELY make spy able to see who the coven visits too, and make the coven see if there is a spy or not.

PS:
Ideas to Jailor Checkboxes:
Didn’t state role
Posted fake will
Lied About Role
Plain Dumbass/Flame
Jailed last night, no kills

Since you have added new mafia roles, then PLEASE make a mafia version of either the old/new Ranked practice (In the Coven DLC), with all the new roles available.

Edit: Changed my Rolelist Completely, since i found a nice and fair version of the game
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby HDeffo » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:02 pm

Please keep the any spot in. No more no less. As awful as it may be some games to get a fifth coven (or a single poor Mafioso LOL) it adds a factor to make every game different. Yes vampire would be horrible to be in every single game but I have always loved those random games where all of the sudden there's a vampire after 30-50 games without one. It makes things unique and always forces players to adapt based on what the any role MIGHT be
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Re: Changes coming soon.

Postby orangeandblack5 » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:18 pm

HDeffo wrote:Please keep the any spot in. No more no less. As awful as it may be some games to get a fifth coven (or a single poor Mafioso LOL) it adds a factor to make every game different. Yes vampire would be horrible to be in every single game but I have always loved those random games where all of the sudden there's a vampire after 30-50 games without one. It makes things unique and always forces players to adapt based on what the any role MIGHT be

That is what chaos games are for though

Not Ranked
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SwampRabbit wrote:So basically, your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

No offense but that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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