Ranked Mode needs changes

Put any feedback about the game here.

Does the system of joining Ranked Mode need fixing? Is this a good solution?

Ranked needs to be fixed, and I like this solution.
49
77%
Ranked needs to be fixed, but I can think of a better solution, which I'll mention in the comments.
9
14%
Ranked is fine, I'm totally cool with playing with n00bs in a mode that's meant for experienced players.
6
9%
 
Total votes : 64

Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby xUltiix » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:48 pm

AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:I like the idea of giving a test.

But I don't think it's going to help all that much.
In my opinion, I don't believe people going into Ranked are inexperienced.

They are simply trolls/gamethrowers. That's the annoying part.

If there is a troll/gamethrower, they are going to pass the quiz easily and still make Ranked a bad experience just because they can.
People who play ranked right now are definitely not new.
They are players who are experienced, but may be trying some clever strategy of acting new or again, just being a bad player on purpose.
Personally I find it extremely hard to believe that players who willingly enter ranked after playing 50 games still have no clue about the game's mechanics. It's absurd.

It may work on a very few amount of people who actually haven't payed attention, and managed to work their way up to that position. But that's not going to solve the main problem of gamethrowers/trolls attacking ranked.

Also, I don't agree with the types of questions asked. There are extremely varying degrees of scenarios that can happen in this game.
Being judged to enter a ranked mode based on the most logical questions of gameplay scenarios, despite the fact that any of them could actually end up happenening, is counter intuitive.

Any of those scenarios could happen. Therefore, it would not be right to judge someone's skills and entrance to competitive gameplay based on the "correct" assumption. Every player thinks differently. There is no "correct" way to assume something when the realm of possibility is wide open.


If players want to play competitively, they should be free to do so. And not get forced to take a test based off of logical responses to gameplay. As far as I'm aware of, no other online video games do this.
The only real "test" I could imagine giving was something about role interactions and basic slot spawning. Nothing further. Strategy is up to the players in-game.



But in reality, I think increasing the limit of needed games to 100/125 is the only real thing we can do. It requires a bit more effort, will pretty much not let someone new join, and slightly deters trolls/gamethrowers because if they get banned, they have to play 100/125 more games to troll ranked, which is a much bigger hassle now.

Questions like "What does it mean when a Veteran dies to a Veteran" are the kinds of question I think should be asked. There's only one correct answer, a Disguiser visited the Veteran while the Veteran alerted. It's the same as a Vampire dying to a Vampire, the dead one is actually a Disguiser. Actual gameplay questions about strategies and such I'm more against. I think the number of games should be increased as well, but the test should be there as well. With things like this in mind, I think the punishments for clear gamethrowing and cheating could be harsher, because you know what you'd be getting into. Completely losing that account along with a test and a higher number of games could help deter more trolls and gamethrowers. BMG already tries to make sure the players going into Ranked have some knowledge already, it's just not enough sometimes. The number of games isn't all that hard to achieve, especially if you do want to play competitive.



Yeah see. That actually makes sense.
It could also be used to keep devoted players updated with the newest tweaks and fixes to the roles.

I would be fine with a test as long as it's not a test that involves "correctly" assuming something.

Yeah, Sammie did say those were example questions though.


I know. I saw that part popping off the screen in bold red.

But they still want questions similar to those. Which they shouldn't be.
Perhaps if this were ever added there could be a suggestion thread for questions to add, and the Developers would have the final say.


How often do the developers actually implement suggestions?

When it brings them more money
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:17 pm

xUltiix wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:I like the idea of giving a test.

But I don't think it's going to help all that much.
In my opinion, I don't believe people going into Ranked are inexperienced.

They are simply trolls/gamethrowers. That's the annoying part.

If there is a troll/gamethrower, they are going to pass the quiz easily and still make Ranked a bad experience just because they can.
People who play ranked right now are definitely not new.
They are players who are experienced, but may be trying some clever strategy of acting new or again, just being a bad player on purpose.
Personally I find it extremely hard to believe that players who willingly enter ranked after playing 50 games still have no clue about the game's mechanics. It's absurd.

It may work on a very few amount of people who actually haven't payed attention, and managed to work their way up to that position. But that's not going to solve the main problem of gamethrowers/trolls attacking ranked.

Also, I don't agree with the types of questions asked. There are extremely varying degrees of scenarios that can happen in this game.
Being judged to enter a ranked mode based on the most logical questions of gameplay scenarios, despite the fact that any of them could actually end up happenening, is counter intuitive.

Any of those scenarios could happen. Therefore, it would not be right to judge someone's skills and entrance to competitive gameplay based on the "correct" assumption. Every player thinks differently. There is no "correct" way to assume something when the realm of possibility is wide open.


If players want to play competitively, they should be free to do so. And not get forced to take a test based off of logical responses to gameplay. As far as I'm aware of, no other online video games do this.
The only real "test" I could imagine giving was something about role interactions and basic slot spawning. Nothing further. Strategy is up to the players in-game.



But in reality, I think increasing the limit of needed games to 100/125 is the only real thing we can do. It requires a bit more effort, will pretty much not let someone new join, and slightly deters trolls/gamethrowers because if they get banned, they have to play 100/125 more games to troll ranked, which is a much bigger hassle now.

Questions like "What does it mean when a Veteran dies to a Veteran" are the kinds of question I think should be asked. There's only one correct answer, a Disguiser visited the Veteran while the Veteran alerted. It's the same as a Vampire dying to a Vampire, the dead one is actually a Disguiser. Actual gameplay questions about strategies and such I'm more against. I think the number of games should be increased as well, but the test should be there as well. With things like this in mind, I think the punishments for clear gamethrowing and cheating could be harsher, because you know what you'd be getting into. Completely losing that account along with a test and a higher number of games could help deter more trolls and gamethrowers. BMG already tries to make sure the players going into Ranked have some knowledge already, it's just not enough sometimes. The number of games isn't all that hard to achieve, especially if you do want to play competitive.



Yeah see. That actually makes sense.
It could also be used to keep devoted players updated with the newest tweaks and fixes to the roles.

I would be fine with a test as long as it's not a test that involves "correctly" assuming something.

Yeah, Sammie did say those were example questions though.


I know. I saw that part popping off the screen in bold red.

But they still want questions similar to those. Which they shouldn't be.
Perhaps if this were ever added there could be a suggestion thread for questions to add, and the Developers would have the final say.


How often do the developers actually implement suggestions?

When it brings them more money


Ooh...well considering this game is mainly free...
Yikes D :
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:22 pm

AlexKathanial wrote:
xUltiix wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:I like the idea of giving a test.

But I don't think it's going to help all that much.
In my opinion, I don't believe people going into Ranked are inexperienced.

They are simply trolls/gamethrowers. That's the annoying part.

If there is a troll/gamethrower, they are going to pass the quiz easily and still make Ranked a bad experience just because they can.
People who play ranked right now are definitely not new.
They are players who are experienced, but may be trying some clever strategy of acting new or again, just being a bad player on purpose.
Personally I find it extremely hard to believe that players who willingly enter ranked after playing 50 games still have no clue about the game's mechanics. It's absurd.

It may work on a very few amount of people who actually haven't payed attention, and managed to work their way up to that position. But that's not going to solve the main problem of gamethrowers/trolls attacking ranked.

Also, I don't agree with the types of questions asked. There are extremely varying degrees of scenarios that can happen in this game.
Being judged to enter a ranked mode based on the most logical questions of gameplay scenarios, despite the fact that any of them could actually end up happenening, is counter intuitive.

Any of those scenarios could happen. Therefore, it would not be right to judge someone's skills and entrance to competitive gameplay based on the "correct" assumption. Every player thinks differently. There is no "correct" way to assume something when the realm of possibility is wide open.


If players want to play competitively, they should be free to do so. And not get forced to take a test based off of logical responses to gameplay. As far as I'm aware of, no other online video games do this.
The only real "test" I could imagine giving was something about role interactions and basic slot spawning. Nothing further. Strategy is up to the players in-game.



But in reality, I think increasing the limit of needed games to 100/125 is the only real thing we can do. It requires a bit more effort, will pretty much not let someone new join, and slightly deters trolls/gamethrowers because if they get banned, they have to play 100/125 more games to troll ranked, which is a much bigger hassle now.

Questions like "What does it mean when a Veteran dies to a Veteran" are the kinds of question I think should be asked. There's only one correct answer, a Disguiser visited the Veteran while the Veteran alerted. It's the same as a Vampire dying to a Vampire, the dead one is actually a Disguiser. Actual gameplay questions about strategies and such I'm more against. I think the number of games should be increased as well, but the test should be there as well. With things like this in mind, I think the punishments for clear gamethrowing and cheating could be harsher, because you know what you'd be getting into. Completely losing that account along with a test and a higher number of games could help deter more trolls and gamethrowers. BMG already tries to make sure the players going into Ranked have some knowledge already, it's just not enough sometimes. The number of games isn't all that hard to achieve, especially if you do want to play competitive.



Yeah see. That actually makes sense.
It could also be used to keep devoted players updated with the newest tweaks and fixes to the roles.

I would be fine with a test as long as it's not a test that involves "correctly" assuming something.

Yeah, Sammie did say those were example questions though.


I know. I saw that part popping off the screen in bold red.

But they still want questions similar to those. Which they shouldn't be.
Perhaps if this were ever added there could be a suggestion thread for questions to add, and the Developers would have the final say.


How often do the developers actually implement suggestions?

When it brings them more money


Ooh...well considering this game is mainly free...
Yikes D :

I wouldn't say it like that.
They're a company, and one recent change, Merit Points, shows that they do what most other companies do, make a profit. Just because they need to make a living that doesn't mean they don't care about the game. All they did was make it so that getting cosmetic items is harder.
Though, I don't know how often they actually implement suggestions.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:40 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:I wouldn't say it like that.
They're a company, and one recent change, Merit Points, shows that they do what most other companies do, make a profit. Just because they need to make a living that doesn't mean they don't care about the game. All they did was make it so that getting cosmetic items is harder.
Though, I don't know how often they actually implement suggestions.


I agree with you.

I totally understand making profit is needed for an online game. As a teacher, I know how valueable money is. And I can guarentee you that online video game servers have to cost thousands and thousands of dollars to maintain. And that's only considering the servers. That's not saying anything about errors or server clutter...

I feel bad for game developers that want to make an online game all the time because I don't think most young folks know just how much it can cost...I make a little over 20k a year. That's NOTHING to something like this.

I actually sorta hope they do end up making their own app. The App Store would surely feature it considering its popularity, and that would be an instant source of sudden income.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:33 pm

TheMajesticSammie wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:Valuable* Guarantee*
I hope you're not an English teacher or elementary school teacher.

They also used "your" instead of "you're"
I guess we're all human.
It just seems that some of us take more pride in our video game-related posts than others.

I checked her profile description. THANK GOD she's not an English teacher. Holy fuck.



*He*
Funny you mention that though. The topic I struggled with the most when I was a child was English.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:41 pm

Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:Valuable* Guarantee*
I hope you're not an English teacher or elementary school teacher.

They also used "your" instead of "you're"
I guess we're all human.
It just seems that some of us take more pride in our video game-related posts than others.

I checked her profile description. THANK GOD she's not an English teacher. Holy fuck.



*He*
Funny you mention that though. The topic I struggled with the most when I was a child was English.

Ahah, that's why I used "They" instead of he or she!
I'd say the only class I'm really struggling in is History.
Because History projects are boring.
Well, not just History projects, all homework-related things are, it's just that History ones are the ones I can't do. English is easy, just write up whatever and get a B, Math is just don't do the homework and cruise through the quizzes and tests with a B as well, Science is easy, just ignore the projects and pay attention to the rambling of the teacher and pass through with a B again. Oh, my bad. I have an A in Science and English, and a C in Math because for once, ONCE in my life, I kind of struggled in Math due to not studying ever. Of course, I've overcome that(not really, we just changed subjects and it's super easy again).
But History projects require like, evidence and stuff.
I can't just use my superpower of a pretty good memory for them.

While you might not have had the best grammar or spelling here, I do know you've presented some pretty good arguments for your opinions, so it's not like I'm gonna discount what you say because you used the wrong your.
Though it's not the most befitting of a teacher to have silly errors like that.
#OnTopic
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:43 pm

TheMajesticSammie wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:Valuable* Guarantee*
I hope you're not an English teacher or elementary school teacher.

They also used "your" instead of "you're"
I guess we're all human.
It just seems that some of us take more pride in our video game-related posts than others.

I checked her profile description. THANK GOD she's not an English teacher. Holy fuck.

P.S. I taught my little brother the basics of Calculus. CALCULUS. And he's 14. Did I need to get a degree in teaching to do it? No. Because I remember what teachers used to be like before the government stepped in and decided to give more work with less learning. I hope to God you know what you're doing, Alex. And I swear if you're using that online math class crap, I will find a way to climb through my computer screen and slap your lazy ass. BE GOOD TO THOSE KIDS!


What are you ranting on about?
I chose to teach because I have always felt the desire to inspire students in their lives by enlightening their days by being me, the positive influence of a person I've always been told I am.

I have a degree in mathematics. If I really wanted to take some other random job for good pay, I would. And I easily could.
But I take passion over money any day. And I'm glad I did. 20K a year is nothing these days, but I am more than happy to go to my job every single day because it's just something I've always loved doing. Being a positive influence in a world full of negativity.
It just so happened I was skilled in mathematics. So I figured, hey, why not? It's a topic average high school students struggle in. And if I taught it, I'm certain I'd be able to reach out to them.
In fact, this past semester, my average class was 87%. That's pretty great for an advanced geometry class. One of the most struggled topics around.


I'm not exactly sure what made you believe I'm doing something horrid other than replying to why I don't think your idea of a "test" on an online video game is very good.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:57 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:Valuable* Guarantee*
I hope you're not an English teacher or elementary school teacher.

They also used "your" instead of "you're"
I guess we're all human.
It just seems that some of us take more pride in our video game-related posts than others.

I checked her profile description. THANK GOD she's not an English teacher. Holy fuck.



*He*
Funny you mention that though. The topic I struggled with the most when I was a child was English.

Ahah, that's why I used "They" instead of he or she!
I'd say the only class I'm really struggling in is History.
Because History projects are boring.
Well, not just History projects, all homework-related things are, it's just that History ones are the ones I can't do. English is easy, just write up whatever and get a B, Math is just don't do the homework and cruise through the quizzes and tests with a B as well, Science is easy, just ignore the projects and pay attention to the rambling of the teacher and pass through with a B again. Oh, my bad. I have an A in Science and English, and a C in Math because for once, ONCE in my life, I kind of struggled in Math due to not studying ever. Of course, I've overcome that(not really, we just changed subjects and it's super easy again).
But History projects require like, evidence and stuff.
I can't just use my superpower of a pretty good memory for them.

While you might not have had the best grammar or spelling here, I do know you've presented some pretty good arguments for your opinions, so it's not like I'm gonna discount what you say because you used the wrong your.
Though it's not the most befitting of a teacher to have silly errors like that.
#OnTopic



I felt the exact same way as a child.
It seems to me that people nowadays just like jumping to conclusions.

A lot of people seem to think that, since I'm a math teacher, that translates to me being a nerdy bookworm on the inside that thinks breathes and eats knowledge for snacks.

But that isn't true in the slightest. I hated school as a kid.
But that's why I got the career idea of making school less boring for the other thousands and thousands of students that were destined to fall into the school system.

You can cut your homework and classes all you want.
As a high school teacher, my job is to teach you and record your grades. Not be a parent by saying "You can't just do that!". 'Cause you most certainly can do whatever you want. I can't do anything to control those kind of students.

What I can do however is do my best to make my classroom an open fresh welcome. I want students to look forward to coming to my class, disregarding the fact that I teach 2 subjects average high schoolers struggle in.
At the end of the day, it's the teacher. Not the topic.

I've also always liked video games so I've been trying to find a place to come to. And this place works out quite nicely.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:11 pm

I'm too tired to figure out why everything below this stuck into the spoiler.
Aaaaaaaaaah.
Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:Valuable* Guarantee*
I hope you're not an English teacher or elementary school teacher.

They also used "your" instead of "you're"
I guess we're all human.
It just seems that some of us take more pride in our video game-related posts than others.

I checked her profile description. THANK GOD she's not an English teacher. Holy fuck.



*He*
Funny you mention that though. The topic I struggled with the most when I was a child was English.

Ahah, that's why I used "They" instead of he or she!
I'd say the only class I'm really struggling in is History.
Because History projects are boring.
Well, not just History projects, all homework-related things are, it's just that History ones are the ones I can't do. English is easy, just write up whatever and get a B, Math is just don't do the homework and cruise through the quizzes and tests with a B as well, Science is easy, just ignore the projects and pay attention to the rambling of the teacher and pass through with a B again. Oh, my bad. I have an A in Science and English, and a C in Math because for once, ONCE in my life, I kind of struggled in Math due to not studying ever. Of course, I've overcome that(not really, we just changed subjects and it's super easy again).
But History projects require like, evidence and stuff.
I can't just use my superpower of a pretty good memory for them.

While you might not have had the best grammar or spelling here, I do know you've presented some pretty good arguments for your opinions, so it's not like I'm gonna discount what you say because you used the wrong your.
Though it's not the most befitting of a teacher to have silly errors like that.
#OnTopic



I felt the exact same way as a child.
It seems to me that people nowadays just like jumping to conclusions.

A lot of people seem to think that, since I'm a math teacher, that translates to me being a nerdy bookworm on the inside that thinks breathes and eats knowledge for snacks.

But that isn't true in the slightest. I hated school as a kid.
But that's why I got the career idea of making school less boring for the other thousands and thousands of students that were destined to fall into the school system.

You can cut your homework and classes all you want.
As a high school teacher, my job is to teach you and record your grades. Not be a parent by saying "You can't just do that!". 'Cause you most certainly can do whatever you want. I can't do anything to control those kind of students.

What I can do however is do my best to make my classroom an open fresh welcome. I want students to look forward to coming to my class, disregarding the fact that I teach 2 subjects average high schoolers struggle in.
At the end of the day, it's the teacher. Not the topic.

I've also always liked video games so I've been trying to find a place to come to. And this place works out quite nicely.

Honestly, I always try to pay attention in class. I don't even dislike school, I might go as far as to say I kind of "like" it. I've always felt this way, because I know school is important.
I had a teacher who was really strict, and scary, and evil. Almost everybody who has had him agrees he is one of the best teachers they've ever had.
So far, my History teacher this year seems to be very similar to the one last year, but the one before that was kind of similar, but much different at the same time. I know there are a lot of people in the world, and that's reflected in teachers and teaching styles. It's most certainly not the topic.

This place is pretty fun and neat most of the time, though I wont lie and say it's perfect.

I'm really mad right now. I'm gonna need to email somebody about this.
I have had a total of one absence from school, and yet my Spanish teacher marked me as absent twice in total.
I will not stand for this blasphemy.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby MisaTange » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 pm

If BMG adds strategic questions there should be like a reasoning line inbetween questions since imo it's more opinion-based and playstyle-based, as other people have pointed out. Though this'll result in more modwork, and if something like this (and the x amount of "Bad Plays" reports suggestion as well) were to be added, I feel like members with a fuckton (1000+) of RP/Ranked games + good account standing (as in no reports, or very old reports, or "not as bad" reports like spamming) should be able to finalize decisions on Bad Plays reports/quizzes.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:24 pm

Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:32 pm

Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

I'd like to add that the only AP test I really had any trouble on was AP English, ironically enough, because of the exact reason you mentioned. But I passed with flying colors on the AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and AP Calculus BC exams, so I don't think it's the tests that are the problem. It's the English language and the different ways people interpret it that are the problem.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:39 pm

TheMajesticSammie wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

The thing is, the same tactics don't always apply to every game. That's the thing about ToS, it's very situational, a good player adapts to the game, rather than using the same strategies when they wont work. That's why 100% solid answers are the best. There will be a time when an odd claim or move in a game can save your win, even if it's a bad one, so you can't say "This is the best thing to do and these are worse"
As for googling it, that is true. But still, there's always the off-chance people will accidentally remember that next time they're playing a game. I would prefer questions along the lines of "What roles are Roleblock/night immune" and such, so that you can't simply just go to one wiki page. Oh yeah, and bite immune. Then another, Witch immune. Questions that you can't google as easily. Things like "If there are Vampires, is there always a Vampire Hunter" in the game work as well, because they have a definitive answer.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:46 pm

HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote: Spoiler:
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

The thing is, the same tactics don't always apply to every game. That's the thing about ToS, it's very situational, a good player adapts to the game, rather than using the same strategies when they wont work. That's why 100% solid answers are the best. There will be a time when an odd claim or move in a game can save your win, even if it's a bad one, so you can't say "This is the best thing to do and these are worse"
As for googling it, that is true. But still, there's always the off-chance people will accidentally remember that next time they're playing a game. I would prefer questions along the lines of "What roles are Roleblock/night immune" and such, so that you can't simply just go to one wiki page. Oh yeah, and bite immune. Then another, Witch immune. Questions that you can't google as easily. Things like "If there are Vampires, is there always a Vampire Hunter" in the game work as well, because they have a definitive answer.



To add to that, googling the answers means you'll suddenly have the knowledge of the game...even if they didn't know it before, they'll learn about it the moment they google it.
If the person looks up the answers to the test online, and then enters the game losing that knowledge, then they are either a 0.001% of players who really just lose their knowledge, or (the most likely scenario), they are doing it on purpose.

A clever tactic I've seen from trolls here involve acting like a complete idiot who has 0 knowledge about the game, and they try using that as an excuse to ruin the game for everyone while dodging reports.


As for the ELO part, I think you should start off at...um...whatever the absolute middle ground of ELO is. I don't know the number, ELO varies in all genres.
Then the player can go from there.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:07 am

AlexKathanial wrote: Spoiler:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:[spoiler]
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

The thing is, the same tactics don't always apply to every game. That's the thing about ToS, it's very situational, a good player adapts to the game, rather than using the same strategies when they wont work. That's why 100% solid answers are the best. There will be a time when an odd claim or move in a game can save your win, even if it's a bad one, so you can't say "This is the best thing to do and these are worse"
As for googling it, that is true. But still, there's always the off-chance people will accidentally remember that next time they're playing a game. I would prefer questions along the lines of "What roles are Roleblock/night immune" and such, so that you can't simply just go to one wiki page. Oh yeah, and bite immune. Then another, Witch immune. Questions that you can't google as easily. Things like "If there are Vampires, is there always a Vampire Hunter" in the game work as well, because they have a definitive answer.



To add to that, googling the answers means you'll suddenly have the knowledge of the game...even if they didn't know it before, they'll learn about it the moment they google it.
If the person looks up the answers to the test online, and then enters the game losing that knowledge, then they are either a 0.001% of players who really just lose their knowledge, or (the most likely scenario), they are doing it on purpose.

A clever tactic I've seen from trolls here involve acting like a complete idiot who has 0 knowledge about the game, and they try using that as an excuse to ruin the game for everyone while dodging reports.
[/spoiler]

As for the ELO part, I think you should start off at...um...whatever the absolute middle ground of ELO is. I don't know the number, ELO varies in all genres.
Then the player can go from there.

There isn't really a middle ground for Elo as long as inexperienced players get in, because so much of a player's winning is based on their faction's gameplay as a whole. Unless they end up as a neutral role every time, good players will be dragged down by bad players. That's just how it is in games based off of teamwork.

As you can tell, I was never really a fan of group projects.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby AlexKathanial » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:28 am

TheMajesticSammie wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote: Spoiler:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:[spoiler]
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

The thing is, the same tactics don't always apply to every game. That's the thing about ToS, it's very situational, a good player adapts to the game, rather than using the same strategies when they wont work. That's why 100% solid answers are the best. There will be a time when an odd claim or move in a game can save your win, even if it's a bad one, so you can't say "This is the best thing to do and these are worse"
As for googling it, that is true. But still, there's always the off-chance people will accidentally remember that next time they're playing a game. I would prefer questions along the lines of "What roles are Roleblock/night immune" and such, so that you can't simply just go to one wiki page. Oh yeah, and bite immune. Then another, Witch immune. Questions that you can't google as easily. Things like "If there are Vampires, is there always a Vampire Hunter" in the game work as well, because they have a definitive answer.



To add to that, googling the answers means you'll suddenly have the knowledge of the game...even if they didn't know it before, they'll learn about it the moment they google it.
If the person looks up the answers to the test online, and then enters the game losing that knowledge, then they are either a 0.001% of players who really just lose their knowledge, or (the most likely scenario), they are doing it on purpose.

A clever tactic I've seen from trolls here involve acting like a complete idiot who has 0 knowledge about the game, and they try using that as an excuse to ruin the game for everyone while dodging reports.
[/spoiler]

As for the ELO part, I think you should start off at...um...whatever the absolute middle ground of ELO is. I don't know the number, ELO varies in all genres.
Then the player can go from there.

There isn't really a middle ground for Elo as long as inexperienced players get in, because so much of a player's winning is based on their faction's gameplay as a whole. Unless they end up as a neutral role every time, good players will be dragged down by bad players. That's just how it is in games based off of teamwork.

As you can tell, I was never really a fan of group projects.



Well that's why this suggestion should be implemented with tweaked edits that fit.

If the problem is "Inexperienced players joining ranked game modes", as stated before, then this suggestion would be an excellent idea.
However, you gotta keep in mind that not everyone does that. Some people intentionally go out of their way to ruin game experiences.

I'm just trying to point out that the likely candidate for "inexperienced players ruining Ranked" is actually just a troll scheme of acting like an idiot in order to ruin experience, and avoid being reported.
If they implement this test for ranked with questions that have 100% correct answers, then that player shouldn't be inexperienced.
Especially if the 50 games rule still stays around with this. Hence, why I like the idea of raising that number to 100 or 125 games.


I like doing group projects, and by that, I mean letting my students sit together wherever they want and letting them work on their group quizzes together all class. Because I can only do so much group activity with math.
My only rule with those is turn in the quiz by the end, and everyone's grade in that group is reflected on their answers...which means they gotta make sure they agree with each other on how to solve the problems and check over things together as a team.
I thought that was a fair thing to do about every 2 weeks.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:50 am

AlexKathanial wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:
AlexKathanial wrote: Spoiler:
HereThereEverywhere wrote:
TheMajesticSammie wrote:[spoiler]
AlexKathanial wrote:Uuuuuh okay getting back on topic now that I'm over emotions.



The idea of giving gamers and fans a test in order to play in a competitive mode is...well. I just don't think the right kind of questions are being asked.
It shouldn't be "choose the correct assumption". We're not trying to make this an AP test where you have to "choose the more right answer when there's more than one possibility". Come on. Nobody likes those. It's a shame when I have to witness my coworkers assign and grade those everytime.

The types of questions that would be proper would be things about basic mechanics and slot spawning. For example:

1) What category does Janitor fall under?
A-Mafia Support
B-Mafia Deception
C-Mafia Killing

Or

2) What can you do if you're doused as an Arsonist, by another Arsonist?
A- Nothing. Douses are permanent, and can't go away.
B- You can choose yourself at night to clean the gasoline off yourself
C- Don't choose any action, and you'll clean the gasoline off yourself

Maybe even something to keep up with game changes like

3) Which of the following roles cannot be an Executioner's target as of the most recent update?
A- Veteran
B- Spy
C- Jailor
D- Executioners targeting hasn't changed.



They should to be questions that have 100% correct answers. Because then it approves the fact that you have basic knowledge of the game. The only true requirement you should be obligated to have before entering competitive play.


I would agree with you, as I'd be happy with any effective test, but unfortunately, those are all answers that they could look up on the wiki, and it'd be too easy to cheat. A unique, strategy-based quiz would show how much the player knows, and might even determine what their starting Elo is if they do pass. Each answer (except for the blatantly wrong "troll" answer) would give some points based off of how correct the answer is (meaning that if there are two equally correct answers, they'd both give the same amount of points), and if they got enough points, they would be able to play ranked. If not, they would just have to play another 25 games so they could take the test again.

And if a person's starting Elo is based off of how well they did on the test, that might also help players play with people of the same level, as opposed to starting everyone off with 1200 Elo (even inexperienced players) and just assuming that the good players will rise above. (Good players end up in"Elo hell" when they end up in the same faction with people who barely have a grasp of the game's basic mechanics.)

The thing is, the same tactics don't always apply to every game. That's the thing about ToS, it's very situational, a good player adapts to the game, rather than using the same strategies when they wont work. That's why 100% solid answers are the best. There will be a time when an odd claim or move in a game can save your win, even if it's a bad one, so you can't say "This is the best thing to do and these are worse"
As for googling it, that is true. But still, there's always the off-chance people will accidentally remember that next time they're playing a game. I would prefer questions along the lines of "What roles are Roleblock/night immune" and such, so that you can't simply just go to one wiki page. Oh yeah, and bite immune. Then another, Witch immune. Questions that you can't google as easily. Things like "If there are Vampires, is there always a Vampire Hunter" in the game work as well, because they have a definitive answer.



To add to that, googling the answers means you'll suddenly have the knowledge of the game...even if they didn't know it before, they'll learn about it the moment they google it.
If the person looks up the answers to the test online, and then enters the game losing that knowledge, then they are either a 0.001% of players who really just lose their knowledge, or (the most likely scenario), they are doing it on purpose.

A clever tactic I've seen from trolls here involve acting like a complete idiot who has 0 knowledge about the game, and they try using that as an excuse to ruin the game for everyone while dodging reports.
[/spoiler]

As for the ELO part, I think you should start off at...um...whatever the absolute middle ground of ELO is. I don't know the number, ELO varies in all genres.
Then the player can go from there.

There isn't really a middle ground for Elo as long as inexperienced players get in, because so much of a player's winning is based on their faction's gameplay as a whole. Unless they end up as a neutral role every time, good players will be dragged down by bad players. That's just how it is in games based off of teamwork.

As you can tell, I was never really a fan of group projects.



Well that's why this suggestion should be implemented with tweaked edits that fit.

If the problem is "Inexperienced players joining ranked game modes", as stated before, then this suggestion would be an excellent idea.
However, you gotta keep in mind that not everyone does that. Some people intentionally go out of their way to ruin game experiences.

I'm just trying to point out that the likely candidate for "inexperienced players ruining Ranked" is actually just a troll scheme of acting like an idiot in order to ruin experience, and avoid being reported.
If they implement this test for ranked with questions that have 100% correct answers, then that player shouldn't be inexperienced.
Especially if the 50 games rule still stays around with this. Hence, why I like the idea of raising that number to 100 or 125 games.


I like doing group projects, and by that, I mean letting my students sit together wherever they want and letting them work on their group quizzes together all class. Because I can only do so much group activity with math.
My only rule with those is turn in the quiz by the end, and everyone's grade in that group is reflected on their answers...which means they gotta make sure they agree with each other on how to solve the problems and check over things together as a team.
I thought that was a fair thing to do about every 2 weeks.

As long as you don't force them to be in groups, that's fine. If they want to sit together, let them. But personally, I always did my best work on my own, in a quiet environment. I did all my homework, asked for help from the teacher when I needed it, and made sure I was prepared before each test came along. I only ever had problems with teachers that wouldn't answer my questions.

Whenever I had to do a group project, I would usually be the one doing all the work while my classmates would sit around on their phones and talk about something off-topic. When one person's grade depends on the effort of the other people in the group, and only that one person cares about their grade, and only that one person does any work while the other people just ride up to the top on that person's back, there is a serious problem. That may not be the case in your class, as you have everyone turn in individual work, but any project that requires students to work together, and has their grades depend on each other, is the kind of project that every good student dreads.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby SpellChecker » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:57 am

Hey guys, can we avoid shitposting on this thread?

And leave the spelling errors on me. :)
  
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:11 am

SpellChecker wrote:Hey guys, can we avoid shitposting on this thread?

And leave the spelling errors on me. :)

Sure thing :)
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby ProblemsIRL » Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:40 am

But if "so much of a player's winning is based on their faction's gameplay", then how do you explain that some people do indeed constantly up their elo while others keep dropping?
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby SpellChecker » Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:20 am

ProblemsIRL wrote:But if "so much of a player's winning is based on their faction's gameplay", then how do you explain that some people do indeed constantly up their elo while others keep dropping?


They have different strategy gameplay, know what to do in certain conditions to guarantee their win.
  
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby ok98161 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:06 pm

This kind of test would be good. Maybe it could be 10 mechanics questions and 10-15 strategy questions, but some of the strategy questions need one or two correct answers. For example, the doctor question could be the one you said was correct, but I could see the "not talking" option being valid too. I think if they plan to implement this they should ask experienced players since they have some of the better strategies.

Also, since this is "Ranked Mode needs changes" I'd like to add one more small change to elo. If the amnesiac dies night one then they should neither gain nor lose elo, since, by random chance(1/15, 2/15, or 3/15), they were unable to have any chance to win.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby MaskedPokerFace » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:33 am

ranked just protects you from Custom game modes and multi account user abit.thats all.and about ELO
your elo is meaningless for other users.Elo is your proven success to yourself.it doesnt give you a prize.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:38 am

MaskedPokerFace wrote:ranked just protects you from Custom game modes and multi account user abit.thats all.and about ELO
your elo is meaningless for other users.Elo is your proven success to yourself.it doesnt give you a prize.

Your ELO is meaningless because it's broken.
It's not just for you, it's to match you with people who have similar ELO.
The prize is that good players are supposed to be with other good players, and bad with bad.
But again, it's broken.
canadian joker says a lot aboot society

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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Damafaud » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:38 am

MaskedPokerFace wrote:ranked just protects you from Custom game modes and multi account user abit.thats all.and about ELO
your elo is meaningless for other users.Elo is your proven success to yourself.it doesnt give you a prize.


Higher average of intellegence and less rate of gamethrowers and trolls is good enough for me.
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