Ranked Mode needs changes

Put any feedback about the game here.

Does the system of joining Ranked Mode need fixing? Is this a good solution?

Ranked needs to be fixed, and I like this solution.
49
77%
Ranked needs to be fixed, but I can think of a better solution, which I'll mention in the comments.
9
14%
Ranked is fine, I'm totally cool with playing with n00bs in a mode that's meant for experienced players.
6
9%
 
Total votes : 64

Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:07 pm

There needs to be a better way of deciding who can get into ranked. As of now, it's too easy to get in- no matter how many times you play, if you don't pay attention or don't take the game seriously, you can get into ranked without the necessary experience. Countless times, I've been in a ranked game with inexperienced players and gamethrowers. Frankly, I'm sick of it. But at the same time, I remember how long it took to be able to unlock ranked after making a new account.

I'm proposing that instead of letting people into ranked based on how many games they've played or how often they win (which won't work for unlucky people,) we design a short quiz about the game with theoretical ranked game scenarios, to see if they know their stuff. They would be able to take the test after their first 25 games, and would be let in the first time they pass. If they fail, they'll have to play another 25 games in order to take it again. This will repeat until they've gained the necessary experience to play ranked mode.

Some example questions: Ignore these, game functioning has been updated since this post was made.

Example 1:
Spoiler: "You are a jailor, and on night 2, you jail someone who claims doctor. There were no serial killer deaths night 1, and no one claims to have been attacked. What do you do?"
a. Kill them, they might be a serial killer.
b. Believe all town claims.
c. They were quiet all day, I don't trust them. Kill them.
d. There's a good chance that there is no serial killer, I should believe them.

In this case, the most logical answer would be (d). The other three options are what the less experienced players do.
(a) is the mistake I see the most often, which results in a lot of dead doctors.
(b) is also risky, because you could be overlooking a lot of dangerous roles, but in this particular case, wouldn't get you killed.
(c) is the most irritating reason to kill someone, especially when it's early game and you have absolutely no reason to suspect them. If the player chooses this option, they clearly aren't ready for ranked.


Example 2:
Spoiler: "You are a vigilante with one bullet left. On the fifth day, there are only 5 players left , including yourself and a confirmed Jailor. You don't know the roles of the other three people, but one of them is claiming survivor (Player 1). No one is counterclaiming the neutral benign role. Another player is claiming bodyguard (Player 2), and the last one isn't claiming anything (Player 3). Only one member of the mafia has died so far in the game, and no one could agree on who to hang. Who do you shoot on night 5?"
a. Player 2, because Bodyguard is obviously a Godfather claim.
b. Player 3, because they haven't made a claim, and you already know that Player 2 is Godfather and Player 1 is survivor.
c. Player 1, because survivors always side with the bad guys.
d. Player 1, because anyone who claims survivor must be an evil role.

In this case, the correct answer would be (b), which under the best circumstances would give you at least a 50/50 chance of winning.
(a), although correct that the bodyguard claim is most likely actually a Godfather, overlooks the fact that the Godfather is night immune and therefore wastes a bullet, and ultimately gets the town killed.
(c) is the most common mistake I see. Although the survivor technically CAN win with mafia, they usually side with whoever is winning, and killing the survivor is not only unfair to the survivor, but could cost you a valuable vote.
(d) is the most common offense I see. It is completely unfair to the survivor, and there really is no call for it, especially if there was no reason for you to suspect them.


Example 3:
Spoiler: "You are a spy, and while listening to the mafia at night, someone reveals a name that appears to be a mafia member. What do you do?"
a. Immediately accuse the named person of being a mafia member the next day
b. Write in your will exactly what was said, because there's really no way to tell what they meant.
c. Write in your will what was said, and ask that the other investigative role check that person.
d. Ignore it, it was obviously some sort of framing.

In this case, the correct answer would be (c).
Although (b) is a good answer too, it would require you to wait until you died for people to read your will, and it might be too late by the time that happens. Even if it isn't, people don't read wills as often as they should, and there's a good chance it might get overlooked. Speaking up, even if subtly, is the best way to go.
(a) is a bad idea because there's a chance they were talking about that person, or trying to frame them.
(d) is also a bad idea, because the mafia might have actually revealed the name of one of their members, in which case, you would look bad.


Example 4:
Spoiler: "You are an arsonist. There are 5 players left, including yourself and a revealed mayor. At that point in the game, no suspicion has been brought upon you, because so far in the game, every person you've doused was killed the same night you doused them. (Player 1) claims spy and passes the "spy test," (Player 2) claims investigator, and (Player 3) claims vigilante. Only 2 mafia members have been killed so far, including the Godfather and a Janitor. Assume the Janitor cleaned 3 people before getting killed, leaving a neutral benign, a town protective, and any up for grabs. What do you do?"
(a) It doesn't matter what you do, this is a losing battle.
(b) Douse and ignite (Player 2) so you don't get caught, claiming survivor during the day.
(c) Douse and ignite (Player 3), because they're clearly mafia, and claim amnesiac during the day.
(d) Douse and ignite the Mayor, because they could easily get you hung, and claim sheriff during the day.

In this case, unfortunately, (a) is the correct answer.
(b) Even if you manage to kill the investigator without them detecting you, your claim will be suspicious, and players will be fearful of an arsonist.
(c) You're night immune, so a single mafia member can't hurt you, and an amnesiac claim is impossible to prove if you're not actually an amnesiac.
(d) Even if you kill the Mayor, the investigator will have a chance to find you, and you will be outnumbered no matter what.


Note: Some people fail to understand that these are EXAMPLE questions, to show the format of the questions and the kind of material that will be covered on the test. These specific questions may not be featured in the actual test, if it's implemented.

All the questions would be designed similarly to these (Likely by volunteers with a high level of logic and reasoning, who are experienced with the game and have been playing for a while) and the amount of questions is up to you, but I think 10 sounds fair. But to prevent cheating, I suggest shuffling the answers every time a question is presented, and making more than 10 questions, so that each test is different.

I hope you like this idea, because I really am tired of inexperienced players ruining Ranked.

Edit: I want to clarify that whether or not you win as a townie or as mafia heavily depends on not only yourself but on your other faction members. If you happen to be a good, experienced player, but all your other faction members don't know how to play or simply don't take the game seriously, you will lose and that wouldn't be fair to you. You will end up in "Elo hell," no matter your skill level, and once you get in, you can't get out. Help make Ranked mode a better place by supporting this idea.
Last edited by TheMajesticSammie on Sat Feb 17, 2018 12:57 pm, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 10:42 pm

/support

I think that 10 questions might not be enough, but a test is probably the best way to determine if someone is ready for Ranked. Voidruler actually made a test for Ranked (I believe it is in his sig), but its questions are more focused on actual mechanics rather than strategy. I prefer yours because someone can know how every role works but not understand strategies. I will help with making questions if you want.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Dec 05, 2016 12:44 pm

alex1234321 wrote:/support

I think that 10 questions might not be enough, but a test is probably the best way to determine if someone is ready for Ranked. Voidruler actually made a test for Ranked (I believe it is in his sig), but its questions are more focused on actual mechanics rather than strategy. I prefer yours because someone can know how every role works but not understand strategies. I will help with making questions if you want.

Yeah, I was heavily considering the fact that if someone didn't know the answer to a functionality question, they could just cheat and look up the answer on the wiki. I feel like a strategy based quiz is more fitting, because it's harder to cheat on and is focused on logic and reason.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Dec 05, 2016 2:23 pm

Even if someone manages to look up the answer, they still learn that answer and can use it.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby ScardyBob » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:17 pm

There really isn't a way to design a quiz that would be effective to do what you want. Instead, I'd like to see something like this:
  • Make the penalty for things such as spamming/gamethrowing/etc in ranked games to a temporary ranked game ban. Punishments work best if they are clear, consistent, and applied quickly. I'd like to see ranked games reports pushed to the top of the Trials System and make the threshold for punishment low (say 3 guilties make an automatic 3-day ranked ban).
  • Implement a system where players in a game can vote for the best and worst player in each ranked game they play (after the match ends). If you win the 'worst player' vote (with a min of at least 5 votes) then you get a 'worst player' flag. If you get five (the number can be tweaked) flags, you have to do the ranked practice system again to get back into ranked. Your 'worst player' flag counts will be reset either if go back through the ranked practice system or you win the 'best player' vote (with a min of at least 5 votes).
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:12 am

I think that this should go like this:
You send a request to join ranked.
A committee checks the modes of the games you have played already ( many rainbow and all any games signal a relatively inexperienced player so maybe the committee decides that some more ranked practice or classic is required for this player to get acces to ranked )
The committee has acces to all reports against you ( if the player has been accused of something they should know to be extra wary )
The committee decides on questions and answers. You need a minimum of 15-20 points. The absolute correct answer gives 3 points, the reasonable but flawed answer gives 2, the one which seems reasonable but is not the right course of action gets 1 and the absolutely idiotic one gets 0.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby WindBlqde » Tue Dec 06, 2016 5:33 pm

I think trusted users should automatically be allowed to use ranked as they have been seen over by a staff member and the staff member thinks they are in good standing.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:59 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:I think that this should go like this:
You send a request to join ranked.
A committee checks the modes of the games you have played already ( many rainbow and all any games signal a relatively inexperienced player so maybe the committee decides that some more ranked practice or classic is required for this player to get acces to ranked )
The committee has acces to all reports against you ( if the player has been accused of something they should know to be extra wary )
The committee decides on questions and answers. You need a minimum of 15-20 points. The absolute correct answer gives 3 points, the reasonable but flawed answer gives 2, the one which seems reasonable but is not the right course of action gets 1 and the absolutely idiotic one gets 0.

I agree.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Achilles » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:00 pm

Thanks for the suggestion guys. We will take this into consideration with future patch plans.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby awesome5000 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:06 pm

I forgot to write /support

but sorry, I disagree with #3 and #4

for 3, if someone is acting scummy, it's pretty likely TI will check the person. It can be b, c, or d. I understand the reasoning, but what if RM is blackmailer?

for 4, as a matter of fact, there still is hope. You can assume the Mafia member will probably kill the mayor. Then it's 2 town vs 1 maf vs you
I think it's been a while
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:09 pm

I disagree with number one. Being quiet is alignment indicative in a game about discussion, it's called lurking. Also, Doctor is one of the few non-confirmable roles and a very common scumclaim, even for non-SK scum.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby awesome5000 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Kirize12 wrote:I disagree with number one. Being quiet is alignment indicative in a game about discussion, it's called lurking. Also, Doctor is one of the few non-confirmable roles and a very common scumclaim, even for non-SK scum.

It's night two though...
And TP are often pretty silent.

Unless your d1 jail was a TP claim...
I think it's been a while
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Julien8080 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:46 pm

I hate #4's answer.

Never give up.

There are worse situations, and you can come out the victor on them.

Say you are Survivor and want to help Town (NB slot is open, you say). There are no counterclaims, and a Mafia on the loose, so Town likely won't lynch you. Douse nobody, it keeps NK out of people's minds. Say that the Invest claim looks really suspicious to you because blahblahblah-insert-valid-reason. Mafioso will help drive the lynch because he is desperate to not get caught. Invest is lynched, Spy, Mayor, and Mafioso remain. Mafioso kills Mayor, probably. Restate your allegiance to the Town, and lynch Mafioso. If you think Town will be sympathetic, reveal as Arsonist and hope that Spy takes your side because of your trash winrate. Stalemate detector gives you the win. Never even had to douse.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:23 am

I'd like to add that the examples I posted aren't perfect. My logic isn't perfect, and I'm aware of that. I just wanted you to get an idea of what a critical-thinking-based test would look like.

The actual test questions would be decided by the developers and admin.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:55 am

TheMajesticSammie wrote:I'd like to add that the examples I posted aren't perfect. My logic isn't perfect, and I'm aware of that. I just wanted you to get an idea of what a critical-thinking-based test would look like.

The actual test questions would be decided by the developers and admin.

Would be better this way. But I think asking skilled players for their inputs would benefit both sides
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:32 pm

randomguyhavingfun wrote:A committee checks the modes of the games you have played already ( many rainbow and all any games signal a relatively inexperienced player so maybe the committee decides that some more ranked practice or classic is required for this player to get acces to ranked )

This.

Sorry, I mean NOT this. I'm far from an inexperienced player- no I'm not great or amazing in any right but I understand the mechanics of the game pretty well, and if you think I need to play more Classic or Ranked Practice just because I prefer not to play in those modes, then you need to rethink that idea. I've met some pretty awesome people who know the game nigh in and out in All Any, and that's the mode they prefer. Of course, I do know what you mean about All Any/Rainbow players not being too skilled a lot of the time, but that doesn't mean EVERYONE who plays AA is instantly a person who sucks at the game.


This quiz idea sounds alright, easy to cheat on, but I don't see why anybody'd try to do that really.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby Ogeezalo » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:42 pm

One problem with the quesitonaire is just quizzing people on their strategies, which can vary on the type of person, it is basically an opinion poll. I think the main thing that should be on the quiz are game mechanics such as, "What does it mean when a veteran is killed by a veteran?"
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:51 pm

BeholdToTheeOG wrote:One problem with the quesitonaire is just quizzing people on their strategies, which can vary on the type of person, it is basically an opinion poll. I think the main thing that should be on the quiz are game mechanics such as, "What does it mean when a veteran is killed by a veteran?"

It means ToS has been hax'd and we're all gonna die!
No wait, it means Witch made Veteran visit themselves!
Actually it means that one Veteran visited another at night!
Hmm, if anyone actually believed any of those happened, I think I'd die a little inside.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:35 pm

Let's think about point system. For example by choosing an answer you can earn 0,1,2 or 3 points.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:45 pm

SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:Let's think about point system. For example by choosing an answer you can earn 0,1,2 or 3 points.

I think the important part is getting important answers correct. like that Veteran question ummmm...what's-their-name had. I've had a Vampire die to being bitten by a Vampire and when someone said "____ is Disguiser" everyone was like "How do you know?"
Knowing things like that is important.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Sun Dec 25, 2016 1:55 pm

Tooshy wrote:Not a good suggestion. Your questions don't have clear correct answers and those really depend on the meta.

Ranked is not only for good players or smart people, ranked is for everyone.

Those questions were just examples. Ranked is not for everyone. It's for players that have a general idea how to play and know the rules, and aren't bad* players. Classic is more for everyone than Ranked is, if Ranked were for everyone you'd be able to play it from the get-go.
*Bad as in gamethrowing/cheating, but that's really all modes.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby randomguyhavingfun » Mon Dec 26, 2016 1:37 am

Tooshy wrote:Who are you to decide what should be the entry level to ranked? The current requirement is high enough if not too high. Elo system is supposed to natch players with similar skill so that players of every level can enjoy the game. How would you feel if I said that only top 1% should be allowed in ranked because you plebs aren't good enough to play with me?

It reallly isn't. Have you ever been to a low ELO ranked game? It's just not acceptable that these people are in ranked.


Btw I would feel ok if I wasn't allowed to play with top notch players because I am not one myself. As long as I too escape the players noobier than me
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:34 am

randomguyhavingfun wrote:
Tooshy wrote:Who are you to decide what should be the entry level to ranked? The current requirement is high enough if not too high. Elo system is supposed to natch players with similar skill so that players of every level can enjoy the game. How would you feel if I said that only top 1% should be allowed in ranked because you plebs aren't good enough to play with me?

It reallly isn't. Have you ever been to a low ELO ranked game? It's just not acceptable that these people are in ranked.


Btw I would feel ok if I wasn't allowed to play with top notch players because I am not one myself. As long as I too escape the players noobier than me

Same. I'm sick of being a townie executed by jailor or shot by vig or lynched by mayor because town is stupid, or getting killed as mafioso because the GF made me attack a confirmed veteran.
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby HereThereEverywhere » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:43 am

randomguyhavingfun wrote:
Tooshy wrote:Who are you to decide what should be the entry level to ranked? The current requirement is high enough if not too high. Elo system is supposed to natch players with similar skill so that players of every level can enjoy the game. How would you feel if I said that only top 1% should be allowed in ranked because you plebs aren't good enough to play with me?

It reallly isn't. Have you ever been to a low ELO ranked game? It's just not acceptable that these people are in ranked.


Btw I would feel ok if I wasn't allowed to play with top notch players because I am not one myself. As long as I too escape the players noobier than me

Exactly this. What's the requirement for Ranked? Like way too little games? Yeah, if it's not 200 or above(I know it's not) then it's not enough. Ranked isn't for the top 1%, but it is for good players. When you can't get matched with people similar to your own ELO, it gets a bit odd with who you play with. But one thing should always be the same with who you play with no matter your ELO, they shouldn't be shi-terrible. Ranked should be where you go to escape people who should still be in Classic, or people who don't know Werewolf can be found by Sheriff on full moons. This happens too often in All Any.

Also, sure, let only the top 1% in Ranked. Are you sure that's you, buddy?
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Re: Ranked Mode needs changes

Postby TheMajesticSammie » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:42 am

HereThereEverywhere wrote:
randomguyhavingfun wrote:
Tooshy wrote:Who are you to decide what should be the entry level to ranked? The current requirement is high enough if not too high. Elo system is supposed to natch players with similar skill so that players of every level can enjoy the game. How would you feel if I said that only top 1% should be allowed in ranked because you plebs aren't good enough to play with me?

It reallly isn't. Have you ever been to a low ELO ranked game? It's just not acceptable that these people are in ranked.


Btw I would feel ok if I wasn't allowed to play with top notch players because I am not one myself. As long as I too escape the players noobier than me

Exactly this. What's the requirement for Ranked? Like way too little games? Yeah, if it's not 200 or above(I know it's not) then it's not enough. Ranked isn't for the top 1%, but it is for good players. When you can't get matched with people similar to your own ELO, it gets a bit odd with who you play with. But one thing should always be the same with who you play with no matter your ELO, they shouldn't be shi-terrible. Ranked should be where you go to escape people who should still be in Classic, or people who don't know Werewolf can be found by Sheriff on full moons. This happens too often in All Any.

Also, sure, let only the top 1% in Ranked. Are you sure that's you, buddy?

Like I said in the original post, it doesn't matter HOW MANY rounds of ToS you play. If you don't pay attention, go AFK, or don't take the game seriously, you won't gain enough experience to play Ranked. That's why I suggested that it be based off of a test of game knowledge rather than the number of games played.

I'm also hoping that once the devs implement this (If they ever do) That they'll test everyone who's already in Ranked to see if they really belong there or not, to eliminate the inexperienced players and trolls.
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