Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

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Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby SquireLoL » Fri Apr 22, 2022 3:01 am

As a frequent Town of Salem player, I have seen some issues rising up with the (not so new now) change to the Retributionist. As of right now, the role depends solely on matchmaking. However, it seems that the role was not fully changed when its abilities and attributes underwent a transformation.

The Retributionist functions based on the roles imputed into the game. However, because the Retributionist is a unique Town role (and as such is "better" than most Town) it has a tendency (like other unique Town roles) to be placed in a match with fewer other Town members. As such it tends to be unplayable as the graveyard has rarely any town in it. As one knows, when you get unique Towns in the match, the game is already numerical in favour of non-Town, that's why there are one or multiple of these unique roles.

Even as someone that enjoys obscure roles in this game (Such as Survivor, VH or Necromancer[My own preference, IDC if they are not considered obscure by some of you]), I do believe that the Retributionist is currently an unplayable role and I don't think anyone enjoyed spending up to 20 minutes in a match doing absolutely nothing with their role.

Now to stop by whining, I believe there are possible changes that the Retributionist could undergo. Firstly, I do firmly believe that the role should lose its unique status (So getting normal matchmaking/spawn rate in Town of Salem games)

Furthermore, I have multiple different buff suggestions for this role:

1.) Merge the Medium and Retributionist as one role and remove its uniqueness (Allowing multiple of this new role to spawn in one game)
- You could manage its possible imbalances by limiting corpse uses to one per ´Medibutionist´(So if multiple players try to use the same Vigilante corpse, only one can do it successfully that night)
- As of right now, not many players (me included) enjoy playing the Medium role as well as the Retributionost role. There is no incentive for players that have died to stay in the game, as by the time they get through the next day and get to meet a Medium (if there even is one), they can just boot up another match of Town of Salem. Also, roles that find a need to remain (Jesters, Executioners, Pirates...) are absolutely useless for the Medium. With this change, one can make the two roles more enjoyable. so that these players are not bored and left out solely on the matchmaking and the mood of other participating players.

2.) Add a "personal" graveyard for the Retributionist (or Medibutionist, merging the two changes together, but probably not) to use. This graveyard would have 3 blank town members for the Retributionist to use. The Retributionist could then choose to use one of their charges (by Selecting themselves for corpse use) and they select which role this corpse would have. Obviously, this would need some balancing, they probably would not be able to use a TK role N1. Similarly, they could only use one of the 4 different categories (Town Investigative/Killing/Protective/Supportive) per charge (and no repetition of role types). This would mean that one Retributionist could not just use a Vigilante for 3 nights, but would have to work with what they have.
- For example, N1 - Retributionist uses a Spy (Town Investigative) to get an idea about Mafia (and Coven) actions, N2 - Retributionist uses a Bodyguard (Town Protective) on themselves to protect themselves and N3 - they use a Vigilante (Town Killing) to murder a suspicious player.

I do believe that there could be other reasonable changes, so I am open to discussion, interpretations and commentary. I would also appreciate it if the Retributionist role could get some kind of a buff reasonably soon, it is currently unplayable. Thank you

TL:DR: Retributionist Sux, needs a change/buff
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby blackaxe3 » Tue Apr 26, 2022 11:06 pm

I completely disagree. Merging the retributionist and medium would be far too overpowered and the roles aren't unbalanced as they are. In addition, the retributionist was changed quite recently and it would not make sense to change it so soon.

As for the medium, while disliked by many players, is still a fair role. If people did not leave the game so often players would enjoy the medium more.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby SquireLoL » Wed Apr 27, 2022 8:49 am

blackaxe3 wrote:I completely disagree. Merging the retributionist and medium would be far too overpowered and the roles aren't unbalanced as they are. In addition, the retributionist was changed quite recently and it would not make sense to change it so soon.

As for the medium, while disliked by many players, is still a fair role. If people did not leave the game so often players would enjoy the medium more.


While I understand the logic of not introducing changes to a role that was recently modified, as to have a longer period from which one could assume playing data, the role is currently in a state of non-playability on certain matches. No other role in the game is so dependent on matchmaking RNG as is the Retributionist. All it takes is a game with little to no town, where the town in the game is useless for the Retributionist, for the whole role to be worthless, an equivalent of a Townie in Traitors of Salem. And because the role is currently still listed as a unique role, it will have an overwhelming amount of such unplayable games. Due to this, a quick patch for the unique status would at least help manage the matchmaking issue, hence making the role more fun and involved.

On the Medium side, there is atm no reason for Town players to remain in a game after dying. While you do get a financial reward for remaining in the game, there is no entertainment value in waiting. Furthermore, it is faster to leave a game after dying and loading a new match if ToS than it is to wait and talk to a medium in a game you have no involvement in anymore. Due to this, the Medium role is also a rather disadvantageous role as it depends on the mood of the participants.
to be

Hence, merging the two roles together would make it more enjoyable, as now the game has to have terrible matchmaking AND disgruntled players for the role to be boring, in comparison to only one of these statements being true.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Apr 30, 2022 7:16 pm

I personally dislike dead chat interaction mechanic's such as the mediums, which either forces players to stay or leaves the medium with less info depending on things out of their hands.

Honestly rework Med, keep current retri.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue May 03, 2022 10:02 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:I personally dislike dead chat interaction mechanic's such as the mediums, which either forces players to stay or leaves the medium with less info depending on things out of their hands.

Honestly rework Med, keep current retri.


No one is forced to stay, you stay because you are being considerate of the med or you have info that you need to pass onto the town. Honestly, it almost feels like throwing to not try to pass on information to the town through a medium that they don't already know.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed May 04, 2022 5:30 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I personally dislike dead chat interaction mechanic's such as the mediums, which either forces players to stay or leaves the medium with less info depending on things out of their hands.

Honestly rework Med, keep current retri.


No one is forced to stay, you stay because you are being considerate of the med or you have info that you need to pass onto the town. Honestly, it almost feels like throwing to not try to pass on information to the town through a medium that they don't already know.


You should stay because of med. But my point is a role like that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I actually stay for mediums because i wanna help, but at the same time i can be critical of the design of a role that wants people to stay after dying.

They removed Retri revives now it's time to rework medium and to be gone with any dead interaction.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Boredfan1 » Wed May 04, 2022 6:52 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I personally dislike dead chat interaction mechanic's such as the mediums, which either forces players to stay or leaves the medium with less info depending on things out of their hands.

Honestly rework Med, keep current retri.


No one is forced to stay, you stay because you are being considerate of the med or you have info that you need to pass onto the town. Honestly, it almost feels like throwing to not try to pass on information to the town through a medium that they don't already know.


You should stay because of med. But my point is a role like that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I actually stay for mediums because i wanna help, but at the same time i can be critical of the design of a role that wants people to stay after dying.

They removed Retri revives now it's time to rework medium and to be gone with any dead interaction.


While I don't like med for multiple reasons, you have good reason to stay regardless of if there is a med or not because often, you can still win post-death unless you're witch, exe who didn't get their target hung, jester who died at night, survivor or your the last of your faction. Also, how would you rework med?
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby SquireLoL » Thu May 05, 2022 2:02 am

This thread was not meant to introduce changes for the Medium, as much as many of us seem to agree upon the fact that a change for this role is necessary. I have introduced the idea of the Medibutionist as a possible buff for these roles, as combining them limits the unplayability of these roles, for it now requires double the misfortune to not be able to participate. It would also fix Retributionist matchmaking and make the roles easier to fake for evils.

However, the big point I am trying to make is that the retributionist is basically useless, as it rarely gets to use its power. If any of you believe the Medium requires a massive rework, consider creating another post with further detail, as to simplify and organise the changes.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby James2 » Thu May 05, 2022 5:38 am

I would support changing Ret so that, instead of being able to use each corpse once, the Ret was able to fully bring back one (and only one) dead player.

There is no issue with medium. If leavers are a problem (they are), the solution is to penalize them, not change the game to cater to them.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu May 05, 2022 5:44 am

Boredfan1 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I personally dislike dead chat interaction mechanic's such as the mediums, which either forces players to stay or leaves the medium with less info depending on things out of their hands.

Honestly rework Med, keep current retri.


No one is forced to stay, you stay because you are being considerate of the med or you have info that you need to pass onto the town. Honestly, it almost feels like throwing to not try to pass on information to the town through a medium that they don't already know.


You should stay because of med. But my point is a role like that shouldn't exist in the first place.
I actually stay for mediums because i wanna help, but at the same time i can be critical of the design of a role that wants people to stay after dying.

They removed Retri revives now it's time to rework medium and to be gone with any dead interaction.


While I don't like med for multiple reasons, you have good reason to stay regardless of if there is a med or not because often, you can still win post-death unless you're witch, exe who didn't get their target hung, jester who died at night, survivor or your the last of your faction. Also, how would you rework med?


Just let people win when leaving lol. The only reason why they don't is because of incentive to stay because of medium.

Retri doesn't need a buff, you could add more interactions with dead vets, transporters ect. heck give it a self target ability for one time that does something idk. plently of ways of buffing it without making it have medium abilites.

James2 wrote:I would support changing Ret so that, instead of being able to use each corpse once, the Ret was able to fully bring back one (and only one) dead player.

There is no issue with medium. If leavers are a problem (they are), the solution is to penalize them, not change the game to cater to them.


Dead Interaction is a bad mechanic, Kills should be a perma loss of that player, they shouldn't have any sort of Input (Other then last will) on the game after dying, working around one role instead of making the game better. feels awful to be the sheriff who dies n1 (or early) and has to watch the entire match because of mediums existence is bad design and isn't fun.
Reverting retri is even worse, it was a really bad role that was so broken yet so awful to play.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby DecDecAttack » Thu May 05, 2022 6:05 am

Last will is literally the LAST will lol, nothing else is supposed to come after it.

(Also sheriff could just stay 1 night then leave)
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu May 05, 2022 6:34 am

DecDecAttack wrote:Last will is literally the LAST will lol, nothing else is supposed to come after it.

(Also sheriff could just stay 1 night then leave)

They still wouldn't win tho, If you removed medium u could let leavers win (I'd let leavers who didn't leave while alive win only though).
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby SquireLoL » Thu May 05, 2022 8:03 am

2.) Add a "personal" graveyard for the Retributionist (or Medibutionist, merging the two changes together, but probably not) to use. This graveyard would have 3 blank town members for the Retributionist to use. The Retributionist could then choose to use one of their charges (by Selecting themselves for corpse use) and they select which role this corpse would have. Obviously, this would need some balancing, they probably would not be able to use a TK role N1. Similarly, they could only use one of the 4 different categories (Town Investigative/Killing/Protective/Supportive) per charge (and no repetition of role types). This would mean that one Retributionist could not just use a Vigilante for 3 nights, but would have to work with what they have.
- For example, N1 - Retributionist uses a Spy (Town Investigative) to get an idea about Mafia (and Coven) actions, N2 - Retributionist uses a Bodyguard (Town Protective) on themselves to protect themselves and N3 - they use a Vigilante (Town Killing) to murder a suspicious player.


More than just merging the two roles together, I believe this change is more reasonable for the Retributionist.

Furthermore, giving the Retributionist like 3 extra roles it could use, when it already can use 11 roles yet rarely can do so, does not fix the issue, just prolonged the means of actually addressing it.

(Also, fix the uniqueness problem regardless)
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby Soulshade55r » Fri May 06, 2022 9:38 am

SquireLoL wrote:
2.) Add a "personal" graveyard for the Retributionist (or Medibutionist, merging the two changes together, but probably not) to use. This graveyard would have 3 blank town members for the Retributionist to use. The Retributionist could then choose to use one of their charges (by Selecting themselves for corpse use) and they select which role this corpse would have. Obviously, this would need some balancing, they probably would not be able to use a TK role N1. Similarly, they could only use one of the 4 different categories (Town Investigative/Killing/Protective/Supportive) per charge (and no repetition of role types). This would mean that one Retributionist could not just use a Vigilante for 3 nights, but would have to work with what they have.
- For example, N1 - Retributionist uses a Spy (Town Investigative) to get an idea about Mafia (and Coven) actions, N2 - Retributionist uses a Bodyguard (Town Protective) on themselves to protect themselves and N3 - they use a Vigilante (Town Killing) to murder a suspicious player.


More than just merging the two roles together, I believe this change is more reasonable for the Retributionist.

Furthermore, giving the Retributionist like 3 extra roles it could use, when it already can use 11 roles yet rarely can do so, does not fix the issue, just prolonged the means of actually addressing it.

(Also, fix the uniqueness problem regardless)

Giving retri more roles to use fixes a lot of issues what are you talking about? The main problem with retri is some town roles literally can't be used. A good example of adding more uses.
Jailor = rb/protect ~(bassically jail effects without the chat or exe, prolly replace it with a simple rb message)
Transporter = Transports (Self with target, if they couldn't program a 3rd button)
Vet = Gives retri a alert
Med = 1. Rework med anyway 2. let it use its new targeted ability

NOW retri gets more uses
You could also give retri a one or two time protection on a target "Intervention" or something where they select them self and give the second target basic defence.

It literally is so easy to fix retri without giving it a medium merge that this suggestion is baffling to many, because instead of looking on ways how to make the role more active epically if they just don't get a lot of the "right deaths" you suggest merging it with medium which medium has the same problem of slow information, heck medium is likely a worse offender of sitting and doing nothing compared to retri. It doesn't fix the role, the lazy suggestion doesn't come across as someone who is actually thinking about what would be balanced its just tack on two bad TS (imo retri is better then med by far) and hope it makes a slightly better ts.

Give RETRI some more use cases then the role is solved. Rework medium so its not a role that sits to be spoon-fed information, by dead players that will either leave or afk, Which i honestly cannot blame them because waiting in a match to tell the only role with dead interaction that possibly exists. (Which removes towns wins if they leave once dead)
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby SquireLoL » Fri May 06, 2022 11:17 am

Soulshade55r wrote:
SquireLoL wrote:
2.) Add a "personal" graveyard for the Retributionist (or Medibutionist, merging the two changes together, but probably not) to use. This graveyard would have 3 blank town members for the Retributionist to use. The Retributionist could then choose to use one of their charges (by Selecting themselves for corpse use) and they select which role this corpse would have. Obviously, this would need some balancing, they probably would not be able to use a TK role N1. Similarly, they could only use one of the 4 different categories (Town Investigative/Killing/Protective/Supportive) per charge (and no repetition of role types). This would mean that one Retributionist could not just use a Vigilante for 3 nights, but would have to work with what they have.
- For example, N1 - Retributionist uses a Spy (Town Investigative) to get an idea about Mafia (and Coven) actions, N2 - Retributionist uses a Bodyguard (Town Protective) on themselves to protect themselves and N3 - they use a Vigilante (Town Killing) to murder a suspicious player.


More than just merging the two roles together, I believe this change is more reasonable for the Retributionist.

Furthermore, giving the Retributionist like 3 extra roles it could use, when it already can use 11 roles yet rarely can do so, does not fix the issue, just prolonged the means of actually addressing it.

(Also, fix the uniqueness problem regardless)

Giving retri more roles to use fixes a lot of issues what are you talking about? The main problem with retri is some town roles literally can't be used. A good example of adding more uses.
Jailor = rb/protect ~(bassically jail effects without the chat or exe, prolly replace it with a simple rb message)
Transporter = Transports (Self with target, if they couldn't program a 3rd button)
Vet = Gives retri a alert
Med = 1. Rework med anyway 2. let it use its new targeted ability

NOW retri gets more uses
You could also give retri a one or two time protection on a target "Intervention" or something where they select them self and give the second target basic defence.

It literally is so easy to fix retri without giving it a medium merge that this suggestion is baffling to many, because instead of looking on ways how to make the role more active epically if they just don't get a lot of the "right deaths" you suggest merging it with medium which medium has the same problem of slow information, heck medium is likely a worse offender of sitting and doing nothing compared to retri. It doesn't fix the role, the lazy suggestion doesn't come across as someone who is actually thinking about what would be balanced its just tack on two bad TS (imo retri is better then med by far) and hope it makes a slightly better ts.

Give RETRI some more use cases then the role is solved. Rework medium so its not a role that sits to be spoon-fed information, by dead players that will either leave or afk, Which i honestly cannot blame them because waiting in a match to tell the only role with dead interaction that possibly exists. (Which removes towns wins if they leave once dead)


I like that you are calling my idea a lazy fix, while not even reading the information you are quoting. In the quoted section I am referring to the idea that merging the two roles is barely a fix and that a better fix would be to give the retri a personal garevyard. Furthermore, adding the mentioned roles to Retri is a fix so minuscule its not even worth doing, giving retri like 3 new roles, two of which are unique.
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Re: Retributionist Issues + possible Buff

Postby James2 » Sun May 08, 2022 7:30 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:Dead Interaction is a bad mechanic, Kills should be a perma loss of that player, they shouldn't have any sort of Input (Other then last will) on the game after dying, working around one role instead of making the game better. feels awful to be the sheriff who dies n1 (or early) and has to watch the entire match because of mediums existence is bad design and isn't fun.
Reverting retri is even worse, it was a really bad role that was so broken yet so awful to play.

Why do kills need to be the end of everything? Sure, dead interaction isn't vanilla, but this game has never been and should not be vanilla.

If the concern is that dead interaction is dependent on one role, well that can be resolved by bringing Ret back.
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