The Investigator Results Problem

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The Investigator Results Problem

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:47 pm

To preface this, I'm only going to be discussing the classic version: All any, classic, ranked practice and ranked since that is mainly what I play and have played and I don't know enough about other modes, including coven to comment on since I haven't played them enough.

So, something I noticed a lot when I came back is that it's really hard to have proper roles to claim when you're evil. This is due entirely to the results given to the investigators as they are given a set of roles a person can. But the issue is that not all results are made equal. For example, Framer, Vampire or Jester. You can immediately tell that there is no claim space here. As the framer, claiming vampire is suicide, just like claiming framer is and if you claim jester, people are likely to believe you're lying so you'll get shot or hung or executed by the jailor. This holds true for the vampire too. As for jester, the only good play here if people get these results on you is to claim jester but there is still a good chance it won't turn out your way. Thus, you have to convince people that you were framed which, is hard, if not impossible if the mafia didn't visit you and there is a spy or you have to hope they think you are jester when you're not and the real jester isn't killed. Or if you are jester, people need to think you're framer or vamp trying to dissuade them from lynching you which is also hard to do. In fact, I have mainly won as jester by pretending to be bodyguard or vigilante but I wasn't checked so it worked.

Even when there is claim space such as for witch and godfather, it doesn't really work too well because the claims are just not good claims, they are just the only claims you can make when there is a living investigator. The witch for example has lookout as its only claim within its results, a role that is incredible difficult to fake, a problem the forger shares with her. Meanwhile, godfather can only claim bodyguard and with the current jailor meta, you can pretty easily get outed by a town that paid attention since you can't actually visit the jailor until the mafioso dies in which case, it's only to kill them which is suicide, usually. And the arsonist has a similar problem. Medium is also not a role to claim as the janitor is likely to get shot, executed or hung since people are almost always suspicious of medium claims. The TL;DR is that both claims are suicide.


The only roles with claim space within their results that can actually possible confirm themselves are consigliere and consort (Maybe hypnotist if played right but I've gotten that role like once so I don't know). But even then, they often get exposed pretty easily.

Honestly, other than removing investigator which, I don't see happening, the only thing I can think of to fix this is adding new town roles that the evil roles can realistically claim so there is at least two town roles in most results and at least one for framers, vampires and jesters.

Anyways, those are my thoughts on this issue, just had to voice them after thinking about this for a few days.
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Re: The Investigator Results Problem

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:53 pm

I have asked to rework this role from a long time, it has such a big impact even if it doesnt spawns in game (spy had that problem when it could read mafia chat)
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Re: The Investigator Results Problem

Postby wozearly » Tue May 10, 2022 8:24 pm

The investigator results aren't too bad in All Any, or in the older versions of Ranked where the full suite of roles was in play.

What you generally learn as evil is that it's often best to claim outside of your investigator results, because (for example) if Town knows that there's a Janitor then any Medium and Retri claims that cannot swiftly be proven and fall into the Random Town category will be seen as suspicious and followed up.

Meanwhile, the Investigator is only dangerous if they've investigated you and openly shared your results and have been proven to be legitimate. Because Townies very rarely lie about their roles, Investigator is relatively easy for evils to fake, so Invest claims aren't considered especially trustworthy in the early stages of the game.

Also, most evils have some desperate method of backing themselves up or discouraging lynches in the event of being outed by an Investigator. For example, Witch can fake LO by means of knowing at least one person who visited another, although at the cost of that person having been witched. Forgers can also amend wills of travelling characters to put them where the Forger says they were, if they don't regularly share wills each day (and if they do, you can use that info to pre-emptively claim Lookout anyway). When it comes to GF, Arso or SK, your results are shared with valuable TP roles, which can be enough to delay a lynch for a day or two if Town don't have a means of establishing whether you or your counterclaim are legitimate and don't want to run a 50/50 chance of removing their TP.

Some of the invest results were also designed to reveal information to Mafia and the Neutrals. For example, Fra/Vamp/Jester is a rubbish result for an Invest to give for you, but Maf (whether with or without Framer) can find it quite useful to identify if your claim is faked, or (in ye olden days) if the Vampire faction was active.

However, now that Ranked has slashed a number of roles out of the list, some of the invest results no longer serve that purpose so well. Framer/Framed/Vamp/Jester, Doc/Disg/SK and BG/GF/Arso/Doused are very problematic when you already know that Vampire, SK and Arso cannot roll in the list, and Disguisers are very rarely found out of disguise at any given time.
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Re: The Investigator Results Problem

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue May 10, 2022 8:52 pm

True. It felt a lot more balanced back then but then, the meta was also super different. With so many confirmed roles, it puts a lot more pressure on the evils than it does the town roles whereas everyone feels the pressure in all any due to every role being unknown at the start. Which is probably why we need more neutral evils and neutral chaos roles that can go into ranked/ranked practice and help fill out those results as well as allow those two slots to be random.
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Re: The Investigator Results Problem

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue May 10, 2022 8:56 pm

We also need a role who can reliably fake claim LO and/or a town role that isnt hard to fake in the LO result
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