Town of Salem Game Forums

WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.

Soulshade55r wrote:

WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.

Yeah thats what I meant

No mayor
No jailor
No ambusher
No jester
No exe

A new NE with witch wincon because otherwise it becomes super boring

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:

Soulshade55r wrote:

WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.

Yeah thats what I meant

No mayor
No jailor
No ambusher
No jester
No exe

A new NE with witch wincon because otherwise it becomes super boring

I would agree, certain roles like transporter would still need some work
(Spy needs a total rework) so roles like framer and hypno aren't completely useless

NE Varity is also key to making it interesting and fun so i agree that just having a witch is bad.

Exe is my favorite role to play and Jester is definitely up there. I play AA and not Ranked, but I do wish there were ways to make those roles balanced for Ranked. I think my Jester idea (starts as town, turns into scum after being lynched) could work. I'm not sure how to balance Exe. I've made a few factional Executioner roles (Mortician, Ritualist) that are forever condemned to "more testing" and I've tried to rework Exe without much success. I think Exe could work if the player has to choose a target and maybe give it some sort of bonus if it manages to get its target lynched and the target flips Town. Then give it a Witch wincon. Not sure what the bonus should be, since an extra kill would be too much and anything else I can think of wouldn't be enough.

There need to be more roles with a Witch wincon, but I dislike how Witch has basically turned into a fifth Mafia member. I think NK should be added back into Ranked, but something would need to be done to stop kingmaker situations (Conqueror wincon?). Witch shouldn't get the exact roles of players it controls and should be forced to scumread the same way as Town. The benefit of NE is that it has to scumread like Town while trying to mislead like Mafia. Having more roles with this play style would increase variety in the game without the negative effects of kingmakers. The problem with making NE roles is that they have to be stronger than any existing Mafia role without the huge variance caused by killing unless it can be done correctly. The most obvious role that would satisfy these criteria is an NE Transporter.

alex1234321 wrote:Exe is my favorite role to play and Jester is definitely up there. I play AA and not Ranked, but I do wish there were ways to make those roles balanced for Ranked. I think my Jester idea (starts as town, turns into scum after being lynched) could work. I'm not sure how to balance Exe. I've made a few factional Executioner roles (Mortician, Ritualist) that are forever condemned to "more testing" and I've tried to rework Exe without much success. I think Exe could work if the player has to choose a target and maybe give it some sort of bonus if it manages to get its target lynched and the target flips Town. Then give it a Witch wincon. Not sure what the bonus should be, since an extra kill would be too much and anything else I can think of wouldn't be enough.

There need to be more roles with a Witch wincon, but I dislike how Witch has basically turned into a fifth Mafia member. I think NK should be added back into Ranked, but something would need to be done to stop kingmaker situations (Conqueror wincon?). Witch shouldn't get the exact roles of players it controls and should be forced to scumread the same way as Town. The benefit of NE is that it has to scumread like Town while trying to mislead like Mafia. Having more roles with this play style would increase variety in the game without the negative effects of kingmakers. The problem with making NE roles is that they have to be stronger than any existing Mafia role without the huge variance caused by killing unless it can be done correctly. The most obvious role that would satisfy these criteria is an NE Transporter.

Executioner and Jester don't really work in ranked because they're pretty much designed as Neutral benign (Jester mostly), changing exe/jester fundamentally would ruin the roles unless the rework kept a similar win condition without ruining them but also making them both balanced for ranked which would be hard. Selecting targets and getting a bonus might work? a kill is too strong but what sort of bonus would work well enough?

I'd personally disagree with Nk I personally think it's fundamentally flawed, in that every action it creates skews in the favour of one faction normally, aka killing mafia early will make town way more likely to win vise versa by a outsider. So I would still be against Nk personally or at least I'd argue survivor is practically going to have less impact then a nk and if what people strive for is a "balanced" game mostly based on social deduction that Nk shouldn't really have a place in it just like neutral benign.
I also don't think the nks outside Serial Killer are in a good spot balance wise so they'd need a total rework.

I'm not too sure on a witch nerf myself maybe if they kept the feedback they get from Tis that would be quite interesting, but i don't think witch really needs the role check too away but i can see it be more interesting to some people, personally i just want auto vest to apply to mafia only, so that vigilante can take care of witches but scum can't rando kill them.
With a new NE I rather something new or interesting, I don't think ne transporter is too bad but it fills the same role as witch (Disrupting actions) really just worse.


Edit:
Thinking about it couldn't you make exe select a target during the night, if they're lynched and town and town loses be exe's wincon
EG: Goal: Town loses and Get a member of the town lynched.

For jester it could be similar
Goal: Be falsely lynched and see town lose.

I dunno rough ideas here but maybe theirs ways to make jester/exe keep their similar gameplay but make them way more evil sided it's just pretty hard to do so, they would also be less useful for Mafia then witch I don't think Exe would need to survive unlike witch once they get their target executed because they already have to meet 2 conditions like witch

Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?

Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.

Boredfan1 wrote:

Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?

Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.

So you're claiming that preventing Exe from winning with Town is a bad idea since it would discourage the strategy of actively working with Town? That is the exact point of changing the wincon.

Exe is supposed to trick the Town into lynching the target. It's not supposed to reveal itself and beg for Town's sympathy, and that strategy should never be viable. It's just not the point of the role.

alex1234321 wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:

Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?

Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.

So you're claiming that preventing Exe from winning with Town is a bad idea since it would discourage the strategy of actively working with Town? That is the exact point of changing the wincon.

Exe is supposed to trick the Town into lynching the target. It's not supposed to reveal itself and beg for Town's sympathy, and that strategy should never be viable. It's just not the point of the role.

Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own. It NEEDS to be supported by a faction in most cases. If you get rid of its ability to win with town, you might as well remove it from the game entirely because it becomes one of if not the worst role in the game. So either it needs to be a mafia role or it needs to retain its ability to win with town.

Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.

What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.

Brilliand wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.

What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.

Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.

Boredfan1 wrote:

Brilliand wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.

What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.

Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.

Im gonna be honest, based on my experience and what almost everyone says both jest and exe do have one of the highest winrates in the game

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:

Brilliand wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.

What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.

Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.

Im gonna be honest, based on my experience and what almost everyone says both jest and exe do have one of the highest winrates in the game

Jester mainly has a high win rate when people are either bad at the game or intentionally letting the jester win. Executioner doesn't make sense to have a high win rate when it's so easy to see through and town is usually very Us VS Them with the executioner and the mafia doesn't always work with the executioner either.

The great advantage of Executioner is that its lie only has to be believed briefly for it to get its win. It can just get itself into a 1v1 with its target, and if the Town is following the strategy that's most effective for taking down Mafia, they'll usually wind up lynching the Executioner's target then executing the Executioner the following night... which is good for both the Executioner and the Town (assuming we view the Executioner as an "evil").

Brilliand wrote:The great advantage of Executioner is that its lie only has to be believed briefly for it to get its win. It can just get itself into a 1v1 with its target, and if the Town is following the strategy that's most effective for taking down Mafia, they'll usually wind up lynching the Executioner's target then executing the Executioner the following night... which is good for both the Executioner and the Town (assuming we view the Executioner as an "evil").

A waste of an execution and a waste of a day to hang the executioner's target unless you need the extra vote to keep the mafia from getting the majority.

Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

Boredfan1 wrote:

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

That is just your experience

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

That is just your experience

No, it's the experience of most people I've encountered in over two thousand matches.

Boredfan1 wrote:

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

Then you've either interacted with exceptionally bad Executioners or exceptionally perceptive towns. It really isn't hard to set up a convincing fake claim, especially if you pay attention to the current meta regarding how town responds to potential executioners.

Joacgroso wrote:If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.

I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.

Although as I said, I like current exes.

People said they don't know how to rework exes, so I'll repost this because most people didn't give feedback. I like the concept of a fearmonger because it actually deters town from lynching people just by existing. Even if what I said is bad, there may be some way around it.

Dunno. It's interesting and balanced enough to be worth a try, but I'm not sure I like the public confirmation that Executioner exists (for gamemodes that don't have it confirmed), or making it significantly easier to catch making its play, or the extremely harsh penalty for letting it complete its primary wincon.

Yeah, we might soften the penalty. But the point of the role is that lynching its target is very hard, but it's self-confirmation means that everyone will be super paranoid about lynching, and will check who voted against a potentially suspicious player instead of paying attention to the accused player himself. That's damaging enough, I think.

James2 wrote:

Boredfan1 wrote:

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.

In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

Then you've either interacted with exceptionally bad Executioners or exceptionally perceptive towns. It really isn't hard to set up a convincing fake claim, especially if you pay attention to the current meta regarding how town responds to potential executioners.

I've interacted with people who HAVE won as executioner, I have won as executioner myself and we are still saying it's not a good role.

Joacgroso wrote:

Joacgroso wrote:If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.

I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.

Although as I said, I like current exes.

People said they don't know how to rework exes, so I'll repost this because most people didn't give feedback. I like the concept of a fearmonger because it actually deters town from lynching people just by existing. Even if what I said is bad, there may be some way around it.

Interesting, not sure it could work for ToS with some tweaks or not but I'll see what I can do though, I see a lot of problems with it, like it's really bad for evil roles who are the underdogs like mafia.

How is it very bad for mafia?

Yeah, I can definitely see how Fearmonger would be a good role in some games. I'm just hesitant to invite it into ToS, because it seems pretty meta-defining.

Boredfan1 wrote:I've interacted with people who HAVE won as executioner, I have won as executioner myself and we are still saying it's not a good role.

Did you get them to specify what was wrong with it? Because Executioner does have a lot of problems; it's just that "too hard to win as" isn't one of them.