syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But what if I think that reviving isnt a good mechanic? For ppl who know me, I have always hated roles that affect lynching/voting
Reviving doesn't affect either of those things beyond the fact that there's one more person. In that case, does Doctor also affect lynching/voting? After all, it saves people, preventing them from dying - when you think about it Doctor is like Ret but takes way more skill.
Mayor is a problem, but not so big because its a town role so it can be used against their own team, GA can only appear in chaos modes so it isnt a problem either, that being said I still think that no more roles that affect voting should be added
Depends on the roles. Mayor and GA don't BLOCK votes, simply manipulate them. If a Mayor couldn't vote at all after revealing, that would be a bad mechanic. I'm ok with roles MANIPULATING the "core mechanics" - talking, voting, and whispering - but not blocking them off. I don't think you should axiomatically discount roles based off of preferences, that's biased. Why are those mechanics bad for the game?
Mafia roles that prevent someone from voting or do something similar? Just as overpowered as a TK that cannot kill town
I agree. I don't like Mafia vote blockers, they make LyLo a day closer based on RNG that they spawned instead of a Consort.
Town role that does something similar? Its overpowered too, but at least it can mess up and backslash
On the contrary, Town roles that can do that are AXIOMATICALLY bad. As Town you never want to stop someone from voting, because it ultimately won't make a difference besides you being unable to scumread them based on their voting patterns.
Neutral roles that affect voting in any way? Thrre is no way to not make that a chaotic ability, and I dont think that a role made solely for chaos modes is worth
Alex does the same as me but with roles that affect the chat (they have shown their hate to bmer several times)
Yes. I've been pushing both a lot longer than Alex has.
Core mechanics are the day-based, discussion-based mechanics that every role has in common regardless of anything else. Those include the ability to chat, the ability to whisper (and be whispered to), and the ability to vote.
Roles that inhibit those mechanics inhibit the entire game and shouldn't be used. Roles that MANIPULATE those mechanics are a-OK in my opinion, as long as they don't shut down.
Mayor getting three votes doesn't inhibit the voting aspect, just manipulates it. So no core mechanics are violated, just manipulated. Bent, not broken.
A role that could not vote at all - full stop - violates the core mechanics of the game.
That being said, since Mayor can't whisper or be whispered to, Mayor DOES violate the core mechanics of the game - but in a fixable way, by re-instating the Mayor's ability to whisper and be whispered to.
Blackmailer inhibits the core mechanics of the game by making it so a player cannot speak. It's like killing a player for a day, but forcing them to keep up with the game for when (or if) they come back to life. You can't AFK like you can when you're dead, you have to keep watching a game you may or may not ever be able to play again.
That being said, the most common Blackmailer replacement is a role that makes it so once a player is put on stand, they are INSTANTLY lynched, skipping the trial phase. This manipulates voting, but in a reasonable way - especially when you consider other Mafia sites do not have a trial, and anyone who gains the majority of votes is instantly hanged.
Guardian Angel has a limited-use ability to manipulate voting, so while it's not my favorite, I think it's fine for now. Only thing I might change is to make it so it can't use its ability after death, otherwise in a game with three town, an SK, and the SK's GA the SK basically wins if the GA conserves their charges - which, to be fair, is a feat within itself so it's arguable no change is needed.
The same can be said for revival, reviving imo isnt a good mechanic, regardless of the faction of that role, because it makes the progress of the enemy go back with not much effort, current retri IN THEORY does that, but its fine because
Its only 1 night
Does actually need effort
Can be distrupted by forger or janitor
Revival is an incredibly gratifying mechanic from a player perspective. In games with old Ret, it was always awesome getting put back into the game. I don't think it should be axiomatically discarded.
The biggest problem I have with Ret is that it confirms all Mediums and makes Medium unfakeclaimable, considering Medium is one of the best scumclaims that's incredibly depressing for scum. But Medium needs a rework anyways, because multiple Mediums are confirmable, so with that there's no real reason not to bring back revival provided it's part of Town Power/Government.
Responses in bold.
Joacgroso wrote:Also, Kirize, you quoted the devs to state a lot of their intentions and motives, but do you have any sources for that?
Could you remind me exactly what you mean? The only ones I can think of are putting NB and NK back in Ranked and why Witch can't spawn in Coven.
blackaxe3 wrote:Although many players don’t enjoy it, I’m personally a big fan of kingmaking.
I don't care. I'm personally a big fan of playing basketball with the Lakers. Does this mean I should be allowed on the court during their NBA tournaments? Because I find it fun?
No, of course not. Kingmaking ruins the strategical value of the game AND is a wholly townsided mechanic (mafia and coven very rarely ascertain benefit from kingmaking, and NKs and Pest never do), your wants don't diminish that.
But that’s beside the point anyway, because Executioner RARELY sides Town.
As an Executioner, once my target is lynched, I will ALWAYS side with Town. In fact, I often out myself to the Town with my target so we can get to a point where Mafia wins the game before my target goes up on the chopping block.
Which, btw, is highly irrelevant - the game should be played according to players goals, not according to kingmakers whims. They're anti-strategical and make the game random.
This is why the current list is so stacked against Town, because with one mislynch (usually the executioner’s target) Town auto loses. I don’t want the game to be decided Day 2.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. Games shouldn't be decided from the second day - and TK/Jailor (which could easily die the first night) don't fix this. This is why I have pushed for a ten town rolelist since 2016, and in fact with the exception of EXE and the second TI (which imo should be an RT) they're pretty much the same.
I want the game to be decided on skill rather than luck. Executioner relies on how skilled you are to Lynch your target. Witch relies on how lucky you are to find the mafia and not auto lose because you died.
what
WHAT THE FUCK
HOW THE FUCK DOES SAYING "hey guys, im exe, target is 11, ill help you guys win if you lynch them at the end" TAKE THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF SKILL?
HOW THE FUCK DOES SEARCHING FOR YOUR ALLIES WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO BE OPEN ABOUT IT AND READING PEOPLE FOR THEIR ROLES TO PRODUCE IDEAL OUTCOMES - ALL UNDER THE PRESSURE THAT IF YOU ARE HANGED ALL YOUR EFFORT IS FOR NOTHING, WHICH NO OTHER EVIL ROLE HAS TO DEAL WITH - TAKE THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF LUCK?
I'm not saying Executioner is a low-skill role, but Witch sure as hell isn't. I don't know where this assumption comes from, it's an amazing role that provides a unique playstyle no other role has. As well, the autovest WAS added for a reason - to prevent having to worry about whether the Mafia will annihilate you. Mafia almost never crosskill Witches now. (this, by the way, is why Vigilante needs to pierce the Witch shield - it was meant to prevent crosskills, not nerf Vig. as well, the Witch's defense should apply to Unstoppable attacks rather than just basic, alongside lethal status effects like douses and poison)
And I have actually been playing since before Coven was a thing. I think this is my third account now, not including using a friend’s account in 2015 for a while. However, I don’t believe this matters as account age is useless as a measuring factor. I know that many newer players have more knowledge than older players, because knowledge is based on how much you are willing to learn, not how long you have to learn it.
You clearly DON'T have more knowledge than me if you assume the reason for Witch not being in Coven is because the devs don't like its wincon - which you said, and I can quote you on that. You seem to mistake me for someone trying to flex my rank on you, and that's not the case. I have been here since late 2014, and have been a part of almost every balance discussion in that timeframe. Maybe your account existed and you played the game, but when it comes to being a part of changing the game and who did more that's me 100% (and I am gonna pull rank on this one, as one of my roles is in the game). If you weren't part of the discussions, and you didn't do your research, at least don't make baseless declarations attempting to read the developers minds - and if you're gonna do THAT at least don't project your role preferences to boot.
My responses are once again in bold.
Joacgroso wrote:Figuring out who the mafia is takes skill, not luck. If mafia attacks the witch it's because they are bad at targetting people, but a good mafia won't attack the witch except maybe on night 1.
Alternatively, if Mafia attacks the Witch, it's because the Witch played pro-town. This is a good thing - before the autovest, Witch had to walk a line between "scummy, but not scummy enough to be hanged". Which when you're looking for Witches is exactly who the Town will start with, as well as forcing a player to play like scum (which is why people dislike Jester). Now Witch can actually take risks without worrying about dying, which is amazing.
I do think that it's a bit luck based as information just gets handed to you, especially early on - which is why I think learning the player's role needs to be switched out for astral visits.
Also, PAGEGET!
