Executioner in Ranked/RP

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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:18 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:But what if I think that reviving isnt a good mechanic? For ppl who know me, I have always hated roles that affect lynching/voting

Reviving doesn't affect either of those things beyond the fact that there's one more person. In that case, does Doctor also affect lynching/voting? After all, it saves people, preventing them from dying - when you think about it Doctor is like Ret but takes way more skill.

Mayor is a problem, but not so big because its a town role so it can be used against their own team, GA can only appear in chaos modes so it isnt a problem either, that being said I still think that no more roles that affect voting should be added

Depends on the roles. Mayor and GA don't BLOCK votes, simply manipulate them. If a Mayor couldn't vote at all after revealing, that would be a bad mechanic. I'm ok with roles MANIPULATING the "core mechanics" - talking, voting, and whispering - but not blocking them off. I don't think you should axiomatically discount roles based off of preferences, that's biased. Why are those mechanics bad for the game?

Mafia roles that prevent someone from voting or do something similar? Just as overpowered as a TK that cannot kill town

I agree. I don't like Mafia vote blockers, they make LyLo a day closer based on RNG that they spawned instead of a Consort.

Town role that does something similar? Its overpowered too, but at least it can mess up and backslash

On the contrary, Town roles that can do that are AXIOMATICALLY bad. As Town you never want to stop someone from voting, because it ultimately won't make a difference besides you being unable to scumread them based on their voting patterns.

Neutral roles that affect voting in any way? Thrre is no way to not make that a chaotic ability, and I dont think that a role made solely for chaos modes is worth


Alex does the same as me but with roles that affect the chat (they have shown their hate to bmer several times)

Yes. I've been pushing both a lot longer than Alex has.

Core mechanics are the day-based, discussion-based mechanics that every role has in common regardless of anything else. Those include the ability to chat, the ability to whisper (and be whispered to), and the ability to vote.

Roles that inhibit those mechanics inhibit the entire game and shouldn't be used. Roles that MANIPULATE those mechanics are a-OK in my opinion, as long as they don't shut down.

Mayor getting three votes doesn't inhibit the voting aspect, just manipulates it. So no core mechanics are violated, just manipulated. Bent, not broken.
A role that could not vote at all - full stop - violates the core mechanics of the game.
That being said, since Mayor can't whisper or be whispered to, Mayor DOES violate the core mechanics of the game - but in a fixable way, by re-instating the Mayor's ability to whisper and be whispered to.

Blackmailer inhibits the core mechanics of the game by making it so a player cannot speak. It's like killing a player for a day, but forcing them to keep up with the game for when (or if) they come back to life. You can't AFK like you can when you're dead, you have to keep watching a game you may or may not ever be able to play again.
That being said, the most common Blackmailer replacement is a role that makes it so once a player is put on stand, they are INSTANTLY lynched, skipping the trial phase. This manipulates voting, but in a reasonable way - especially when you consider other Mafia sites do not have a trial, and anyone who gains the majority of votes is instantly hanged.

Guardian Angel has a limited-use ability to manipulate voting, so while it's not my favorite, I think it's fine for now. Only thing I might change is to make it so it can't use its ability after death, otherwise in a game with three town, an SK, and the SK's GA the SK basically wins if the GA conserves their charges - which, to be fair, is a feat within itself so it's arguable no change is needed.


The same can be said for revival, reviving imo isnt a good mechanic, regardless of the faction of that role, because it makes the progress of the enemy go back with not much effort, current retri IN THEORY does that, but its fine because
Its only 1 night
Does actually need effort
Can be distrupted by forger or janitor

Revival is an incredibly gratifying mechanic from a player perspective. In games with old Ret, it was always awesome getting put back into the game. I don't think it should be axiomatically discarded.

The biggest problem I have with Ret is that it confirms all Mediums and makes Medium unfakeclaimable, considering Medium is one of the best scumclaims that's incredibly depressing for scum. But Medium needs a rework anyways, because multiple Mediums are confirmable, so with that there's no real reason not to bring back revival provided it's part of Town Power/Government.


Responses in bold.

Joacgroso wrote:Also, Kirize, you quoted the devs to state a lot of their intentions and motives, but do you have any sources for that?

Could you remind me exactly what you mean? The only ones I can think of are putting NB and NK back in Ranked and why Witch can't spawn in Coven.

blackaxe3 wrote:Although many players don’t enjoy it, I’m personally a big fan of kingmaking.

I don't care. I'm personally a big fan of playing basketball with the Lakers. Does this mean I should be allowed on the court during their NBA tournaments? Because I find it fun?

No, of course not. Kingmaking ruins the strategical value of the game AND is a wholly townsided mechanic (mafia and coven very rarely ascertain benefit from kingmaking, and NKs and Pest never do), your wants don't diminish that.


But that’s beside the point anyway, because Executioner RARELY sides Town.

As an Executioner, once my target is lynched, I will ALWAYS side with Town. In fact, I often out myself to the Town with my target so we can get to a point where Mafia wins the game before my target goes up on the chopping block.

Which, btw, is highly irrelevant - the game should be played according to players goals, not according to kingmakers whims. They're anti-strategical and make the game random.


This is why the current list is so stacked against Town, because with one mislynch (usually the executioner’s target) Town auto loses. I don’t want the game to be decided Day 2.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Games shouldn't be decided from the second day - and TK/Jailor (which could easily die the first night) don't fix this. This is why I have pushed for a ten town rolelist since 2016, and in fact with the exception of EXE and the second TI (which imo should be an RT) they're pretty much the same.

I want the game to be decided on skill rather than luck. Executioner relies on how skilled you are to Lynch your target. Witch relies on how lucky you are to find the mafia and not auto lose because you died.

what

WHAT THE FUCK

HOW THE FUCK DOES SAYING "hey guys, im exe, target is 11, ill help you guys win if you lynch them at the end" TAKE THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF SKILL?

HOW THE FUCK DOES SEARCHING FOR YOUR ALLIES WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO BE OPEN ABOUT IT AND READING PEOPLE FOR THEIR ROLES TO PRODUCE IDEAL OUTCOMES - ALL UNDER THE PRESSURE THAT IF YOU ARE HANGED ALL YOUR EFFORT IS FOR NOTHING, WHICH NO OTHER EVIL ROLE HAS TO DEAL WITH - TAKE THE SLIGHTEST AMOUNT OF LUCK?

I'm not saying Executioner is a low-skill role, but Witch sure as hell isn't. I don't know where this assumption comes from, it's an amazing role that provides a unique playstyle no other role has. As well, the autovest WAS added for a reason - to prevent having to worry about whether the Mafia will annihilate you. Mafia almost never crosskill Witches now. (this, by the way, is why Vigilante needs to pierce the Witch shield - it was meant to prevent crosskills, not nerf Vig. as well, the Witch's defense should apply to Unstoppable attacks rather than just basic, alongside lethal status effects like douses and poison)


And I have actually been playing since before Coven was a thing. I think this is my third account now, not including using a friend’s account in 2015 for a while. However, I don’t believe this matters as account age is useless as a measuring factor. I know that many newer players have more knowledge than older players, because knowledge is based on how much you are willing to learn, not how long you have to learn it.

You clearly DON'T have more knowledge than me if you assume the reason for Witch not being in Coven is because the devs don't like its wincon - which you said, and I can quote you on that. You seem to mistake me for someone trying to flex my rank on you, and that's not the case. I have been here since late 2014, and have been a part of almost every balance discussion in that timeframe. Maybe your account existed and you played the game, but when it comes to being a part of changing the game and who did more that's me 100% (and I am gonna pull rank on this one, as one of my roles is in the game). If you weren't part of the discussions, and you didn't do your research, at least don't make baseless declarations attempting to read the developers minds - and if you're gonna do THAT at least don't project your role preferences to boot.


My responses are once again in bold.

Joacgroso wrote:Figuring out who the mafia is takes skill, not luck. If mafia attacks the witch it's because they are bad at targetting people, but a good mafia won't attack the witch except maybe on night 1.

Alternatively, if Mafia attacks the Witch, it's because the Witch played pro-town. This is a good thing - before the autovest, Witch had to walk a line between "scummy, but not scummy enough to be hanged". Which when you're looking for Witches is exactly who the Town will start with, as well as forcing a player to play like scum (which is why people dislike Jester). Now Witch can actually take risks without worrying about dying, which is amazing.

I do think that it's a bit luck based as information just gets handed to you, especially early on - which is why I think learning the player's role needs to be switched out for astral visits.

Also, PAGEGET!
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:02 am

Kirize12 wrote:Could you remind me exactly what you mean? The only ones I can think of are putting NB and NK back in Ranked and why Witch can't spawn in Coven.


This one doesn't need a source, but it still intrigued me because you stated it as a fact without explaining why:
Kirize12 wrote:we need Neutral dynamics

Also:
Spoiler:
Kirize12 wrote:They just didn't want confusion with Coven Leader

The post you linked said that witches were turned into CL, but it didn't explain the motive.
Kirize12 wrote:Kingmaking was an intended feature of the game to promote diplomacy.

Kirize12 wrote:Achilles actually directly told me why the Mayor change was added. “It was suggested on the forums.”

Kirize12 wrote:Witch shield - it was meant to prevent crosskills, not nerf Vig


I also don't like revivals, not only because they confirm people, but also because they feel cheap. Even though I liked being revived when I was town, it felt unfair when the person I killed n1 was brought back just because there was a retri, without mafia being able to do anything to prevent it. Being able to silence good players is one of the core aspects of mafia, and I don't think that should be taken away (revival is worse than TPs because a dead person had access to dead chat).

Also, don't GAs inhibit core mechanics by preventing people from voting against someone? If that player is their last enemy, GAs can waste a day. I agree that since it's a chaos role it doesn't really matter, though. But if devs really bring NBs back to competitive gamemodes, they should get rid of this luck-based mechanic (the protected player is randomized).
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Kirize12 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:20 pm

Town vs Mafia can be dull and repetitive. Neutrals spice things up. If done in a balanced way, this spice is good for the game. The less games are similar to each other the better.

With Witch and CL post I linked was complaining that Witch turned into CL, and Achilles said that "Witch is CL with a team behind them", ignoring the unique dynamic an anti-Town neutral brings to the game. So that was the reason Witch turned into CL - because Witch now had a team behind them so regular Witch wasn't needed.

I'm sure there's a better quote to support this but I know that it was turned because of the Witch Faction.

In regards to kingmaking:
PoptartPresident wrote:
In fact, I don't think they're ever going to touch anything related to king making because is very clear they intended kingmaking for the game as a last resort for some roles.
If they didn't, they wouldn't have the tip pointing out that a survivor can be the deciding vote.



When I said directly in regards to the Mayor change, I mean via PM. I asked him why, and he told me why.

As for the Witch shield - that's not speaking on the devs, that's speaking on myself, orange, and everyone who pushed for the change in the first place.




Depending on mechanical changes, revival as a mechanic can work. You have to admit, it's incredibly gratifying to be in the game despite being dead - but since it's powerful, it needs to be limited to TPow if that alignment is added.

GA doesn't inhibit core mechanics, just manipulates them. It was either that or allowing that person to be voted, but saving them if they are lynched. They end up the same way. A reverse GA that prevented its target from voting at all would inhibit core mechanics. And yes, GA should 100% be able to choose their own target, as should EXE. That's why I think GA should be reworked into Surgeon.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby WitchHouse40k » Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:06 pm

I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:12 pm

WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Dec 14, 2021 1:49 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.


Yeah thats what I meant

No mayor
No jailor
No ambusher
No jester
No exe

A new NE with witch wincon because otherwise it becomes super boring
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Soulshade55r » Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:04 am

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
WitchHouse40k wrote:I seriously wonder if people who keep suggesting 10v5 rolelists have ever played ranked in their lives or are just trolling, how can someone be so clueless and make so bad suggestions unironically

5v10 would actually be way more balanced then 6v9 in theory.

The actual problem right now is the power of certain town roles and easy confirmability makes 6v9 be more "balanced" and while it works in a slight way.
Problems with 6v9 makes games too compact and decided early, makes the game way more luck based and too dependent on early game most of the time, current ranked doesn't really have any impact or ways to recover once one side gets majority early, the fact that the evils are 2/3's of the good majority is insane, most people would think evils being 1/2 of the good majority is too much.
4 maf / 1 witch (or wincon same) role vs 10 town should be the meta
roles are just currently so broken that 6v9 works better.


Yeah thats what I meant

No mayor
No jailor
No ambusher
No jester
No exe

A new NE with witch wincon because otherwise it becomes super boring


I would agree, certain roles like transporter would still need some work
(Spy needs a total rework) so roles like framer and hypno aren't completely useless

NE Varity is also key to making it interesting and fun so i agree that just having a witch is bad.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby alex1234321 » Fri Dec 17, 2021 11:13 am

Exe is my favorite role to play and Jester is definitely up there. I play AA and not Ranked, but I do wish there were ways to make those roles balanced for Ranked. I think my Jester idea (starts as town, turns into scum after being lynched) could work. I'm not sure how to balance Exe. I've made a few factional Executioner roles (Mortician, Ritualist) that are forever condemned to "more testing" and I've tried to rework Exe without much success. I think Exe could work if the player has to choose a target and maybe give it some sort of bonus if it manages to get its target lynched and the target flips Town. Then give it a Witch wincon. Not sure what the bonus should be, since an extra kill would be too much and anything else I can think of wouldn't be enough.

There need to be more roles with a Witch wincon, but I dislike how Witch has basically turned into a fifth Mafia member. I think NK should be added back into Ranked, but something would need to be done to stop kingmaker situations (Conqueror wincon?). Witch shouldn't get the exact roles of players it controls and should be forced to scumread the same way as Town. The benefit of NE is that it has to scumread like Town while trying to mislead like Mafia. Having more roles with this play style would increase variety in the game without the negative effects of kingmakers. The problem with making NE roles is that they have to be stronger than any existing Mafia role without the huge variance caused by killing unless it can be done correctly. The most obvious role that would satisfy these criteria is an NE Transporter.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Dec 18, 2021 7:25 pm

alex1234321 wrote:Exe is my favorite role to play and Jester is definitely up there. I play AA and not Ranked, but I do wish there were ways to make those roles balanced for Ranked. I think my Jester idea (starts as town, turns into scum after being lynched) could work. I'm not sure how to balance Exe. I've made a few factional Executioner roles (Mortician, Ritualist) that are forever condemned to "more testing" and I've tried to rework Exe without much success. I think Exe could work if the player has to choose a target and maybe give it some sort of bonus if it manages to get its target lynched and the target flips Town. Then give it a Witch wincon. Not sure what the bonus should be, since an extra kill would be too much and anything else I can think of wouldn't be enough.

There need to be more roles with a Witch wincon, but I dislike how Witch has basically turned into a fifth Mafia member. I think NK should be added back into Ranked, but something would need to be done to stop kingmaker situations (Conqueror wincon?). Witch shouldn't get the exact roles of players it controls and should be forced to scumread the same way as Town. The benefit of NE is that it has to scumread like Town while trying to mislead like Mafia. Having more roles with this play style would increase variety in the game without the negative effects of kingmakers. The problem with making NE roles is that they have to be stronger than any existing Mafia role without the huge variance caused by killing unless it can be done correctly. The most obvious role that would satisfy these criteria is an NE Transporter.


Executioner and Jester don't really work in ranked because they're pretty much designed as Neutral benign (Jester mostly), changing exe/jester fundamentally would ruin the roles unless the rework kept a similar win condition without ruining them but also making them both balanced for ranked which would be hard. Selecting targets and getting a bonus might work? a kill is too strong but what sort of bonus would work well enough?

I'd personally disagree with Nk I personally think it's fundamentally flawed, in that every action it creates skews in the favour of one faction normally, aka killing mafia early will make town way more likely to win vise versa by a outsider. So I would still be against Nk personally or at least I'd argue survivor is practically going to have less impact then a nk and if what people strive for is a "balanced" game mostly based on social deduction that Nk shouldn't really have a place in it just like neutral benign.
I also don't think the nks outside Serial Killer are in a good spot balance wise so they'd need a total rework.

I'm not too sure on a witch nerf myself maybe if they kept the feedback they get from Tis that would be quite interesting, but i don't think witch really needs the role check too away but i can see it be more interesting to some people, personally i just want auto vest to apply to mafia only, so that vigilante can take care of witches but scum can't rando kill them.
With a new NE I rather something new or interesting, I don't think ne transporter is too bad but it fills the same role as witch (Disrupting actions) really just worse.


Edit:
Thinking about it couldn't you make exe select a target during the night, if they're lynched and town and town loses be exe's wincon
EG: Goal: Town loses and Get a member of the town lynched.

For jester it could be similar
Goal: Be falsely lynched and see town lose.

I dunno rough ideas here but maybe theirs ways to make jester/exe keep their similar gameplay but make them way more evil sided it's just pretty hard to do so, they would also be less useful for Mafia then witch I don't think Exe would need to survive unlike witch once they get their target executed because they already have to meet 2 conditions like witch
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Mon Mar 21, 2022 8:25 pm

Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?


Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:06 am

Boredfan1 wrote:
Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?


Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.


So you're claiming that preventing Exe from winning with Town is a bad idea since it would discourage the strategy of actively working with Town? That is the exact point of changing the wincon.

Exe is supposed to trick the Town into lynching the target. It's not supposed to reveal itself and beg for Town's sympathy, and that strategy should never be viable. It's just not the point of the role.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 11:05 am

alex1234321 wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
Crona111 wrote:Or just make it not win with Town, because why does it win with the faction it's supposed to disrupt?


Ya, the problem with this idea is that people already assume that the executioner won't side with town 99% of the time as it is and that they will usually side with mafia which isn't exactly true. However, because it can win with town, there are times when people will work with the executioner as town but if you take that win condition away from them, it makes the executioner much worse and always an execute or lynch which ultimately hurts the mafia since they can't use the executioner to their advantage nearly as much and have to be even more careful. It's just not worth it.


So you're claiming that preventing Exe from winning with Town is a bad idea since it would discourage the strategy of actively working with Town? That is the exact point of changing the wincon.

Exe is supposed to trick the Town into lynching the target. It's not supposed to reveal itself and beg for Town's sympathy, and that strategy should never be viable. It's just not the point of the role.


Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own. It NEEDS to be supported by a faction in most cases. If you get rid of its ability to win with town, you might as well remove it from the game entirely because it becomes one of if not the worst role in the game. So either it needs to be a mafia role or it needs to retain its ability to win with town.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Brilliand » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:12 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.


What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 12:22 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.


What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.



Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:51 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.


What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.



Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.



Im gonna be honest, based on my experience and what almost everyone says both jest and exe do have one of the highest winrates in the game
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:01 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:Dude, executioner already has an incredible low win rate as it is because it's not town, it isn't mafia, it is completely on its own and it does not work well on its own.


What stats are you citing? Last I heard Executioner had the highest winrate of all roles in the game, though that was a while ago and was of course just one person's small study.



Years of experience and what people I have spoken to have said. It is NOT an easy role, the best roles are town roles.



Im gonna be honest, based on my experience and what almost everyone says both jest and exe do have one of the highest winrates in the game


Jester mainly has a high win rate when people are either bad at the game or intentionally letting the jester win. Executioner doesn't make sense to have a high win rate when it's so easy to see through and town is usually very Us VS Them with the executioner and the mafia doesn't always work with the executioner either.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Brilliand » Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:06 pm

The great advantage of Executioner is that its lie only has to be believed briefly for it to get its win. It can just get itself into a 1v1 with its target, and if the Town is following the strategy that's most effective for taking down Mafia, they'll usually wind up lynching the Executioner's target then executing the Executioner the following night... which is good for both the Executioner and the Town (assuming we view the Executioner as an "evil").
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Tue Mar 22, 2022 6:28 pm

Brilliand wrote:The great advantage of Executioner is that its lie only has to be believed briefly for it to get its win. It can just get itself into a 1v1 with its target, and if the Town is following the strategy that's most effective for taking down Mafia, they'll usually wind up lynching the Executioner's target then executing the Executioner the following night... which is good for both the Executioner and the Town (assuming we view the Executioner as an "evil").


A waste of an execution and a waste of a day to hang the executioner's target unless you need the extra vote to keep the mafia from getting the majority.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby James2 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 12:40 pm

Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Thu Mar 24, 2022 9:44 pm

James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.


In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Fri Mar 25, 2022 8:41 am

Boredfan1 wrote:
James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.


In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.


That is just your experience
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Boredfan1 » Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:19 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Boredfan1 wrote:
James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.


In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.


That is just your experience


No, it's the experience of most people I've encountered in over two thousand matches.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby James2 » Fri Mar 25, 2022 12:39 pm

Boredfan1 wrote:
James2 wrote:Executioner is trivially easy to win as if you can lie halfway well.

And even if you can't, in the current meta town will often give you the win if you cooperate with them.


In theory but in practice, I've seen them lose about 90-99% of the time.

Then you've either interacted with exceptionally bad Executioners or exceptionally perceptive towns. It really isn't hard to set up a convincing fake claim, especially if you pay attention to the current meta regarding how town responds to potential executioners.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Mar 25, 2022 2:34 pm

Joacgroso wrote:If you want to change them, maybe you could take inspiration from the fearmonger, a role from blood on the clocktower? That game is kinda different from ToS, but maybe the role can work with some tweaks.

I'm not a balance expert, but maybe we could have them pick a target and 2 red herrings each night, which will be revealed the next day to the town. If the true target is town and is lynched the next day (optionally: this ability only works if the exe is among the first half of people who voted that person up), evils win. The reworked exe could still win like a witch. If you don't want to be so punishing, maybe make the exe rb all townies if he executes his target.

Although as I said, I like current exes.


People said they don't know how to rework exes, so I'll repost this because most people didn't give feedback. I like the concept of a fearmonger because it actually deters town from lynching people just by existing. Even if what I said is bad, there may be some way around it.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Executioner in Ranked/RP

Postby Brilliand » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:58 pm

Dunno. It's interesting and balanced enough to be worth a try, but I'm not sure I like the public confirmation that Executioner exists (for gamemodes that don't have it confirmed), or making it significantly easier to catch making its play, or the extremely harsh penalty for letting it complete its primary wincon.
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