End Ranked Season 5 now

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End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby yanny20 » Tue Oct 05, 2021 5:27 pm

This season has been going on for an entire year, is it even going to end? The rank 1 player has almost 7000 elo, that's completely ridiculous, besides there's not much incentive to play after master rank (the highest rank) because of the lack of players, being high elo would get you queued with people that have 0 elo anyway. Maybe you'd keep your ranked playerbase for longer if the resets were more frequent.

Given that the ranked season has been so long already I think another hard reset is needed.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby blackaxe3 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:26 pm

My thoughts exactly. Ranked Season 4 was supposed to be the exception, not the rule. These seasons should only last 6-9 months at most.

We also need a new role list, this one hugely benefits mafia by giving them two allies so it’s a 9v6.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Ezradekezra » Mon Oct 11, 2021 8:29 pm

blackaxe3 wrote:We also need a new role list, this one hugely benefits mafia by giving them two allies so it’s a 9v6.

the s5 list isn't scumsided just get good lmao

s5 has been a bit on the long side tho, although i imagine that's 90% because traitors in salem is a thing
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Oct 12, 2021 12:06 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
blackaxe3 wrote:We also need a new role list, this one hugely benefits mafia by giving them two allies so it’s a 9v6.

the s5 list isn't scumsided just get good lmao

s5 has been a bit on the long side tho, although i imagine that's 90% because traitors in salem is a thing


S5 is bad in the sense its unfun and stupidly early how the games decided. But it's a problem imo I don't think old ranked was more balanced heck I'd say its worse.

Problem is we'd have to rework town roles and rework mafia in a way that 5v10 is fair to have balanced and fun games.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:57 pm

The Mafia needs fewer roles that are inoperable without a certain kind of Town role being present in the game.

And fewer self-destructive roles.

...

Framer, Disguiser, and Hypnotist are broken.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Oct 16, 2021 3:18 am

SilverCruz wrote:The Mafia needs fewer roles that are inoperable without a certain kind of Town role being present in the game.

And fewer self-destructive roles.

...

Framer, Disguiser, and Hypnotist are broken.


I'd say mafia and evils need one less slot but need all their roles to actually be balanced and good.

Also with town having no stupidly broken town roles would be good, heck I'd be down for no jailor in town, I dislike how dependent town is on one role not to mess up or die early.

Certain roles like spy and transporter are pretty broken and unfun for evils to even play aganist.

Theirs so many problems with ranked because 6v9 is not going to be a greatly balanced you can argue percent wise its balanced but if you call balance idk jailor gets lucky or you get a good one or that the ambusher didn't spawn and get a extra kill by n2 "skill" then idk

5v10 on paper is actually pretty damn scum sided as it is imo, the problem comes with the actual role balance firstly.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 11:52 am

Ezradekezra wrote:
blackaxe3 wrote:We also need a new role list, this one hugely benefits mafia by giving them two allies so it’s a 9v6.

the s5 list isn't scumsided just get good lmao

s5 has been a bit on the long side tho, although i imagine that's 90% because traitors in salem is a thing

The S5 list is scum sided. Only reason Town wins so much is because they have absurdly broken roles like Jailor, Spy, Transporter, and the swing of Mayor.

Would anyone object to this easy list, without any role changes?

Jailor
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
RT

GF
MAF
RM
RM

WITCH

Winrates would be about the same as they are now, but without PoE being part of the game. It doesn’t matter that Town has the additional member, good luck finding the evils since the evils can all feasibly claim RT.

This doesn’t mean “don’t ever change the roles”, by the way. Just the easiest list.

-

Hypnotist is not broken. Just needs the slightest buff to remove all feedback a player gets. I’ve carried games as Hypnotist.

Framer needs some buffs. I’ve outlined ways to buff it before, tell me what you think.

Disguiser‘s in a pretty good spot right now, but still needs changes to impact the game outside of TIs - which Mafia should be killing anyways.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:18 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:
blackaxe3 wrote:We also need a new role list, this one hugely benefits mafia by giving them two allies so it’s a 9v6.

the s5 list isn't scumsided just get good lmao

s5 has been a bit on the long side tho, although i imagine that's 90% because traitors in salem is a thing

The S5 list is scum sided. Only reason Town wins so much is because they have absurdly broken roles like Jailor, Spy, Transporter, and the swing of Mayor.

Would anyone object to this easy list, without any role changes?

Jailor
TI
TP
TK
TS
RT
RT
RT
RT
RT

GF
MAF
RM
RM

WITCH

Winrates would be about the same as they are now, but without PoE being part of the game. It doesn’t matter that Town has the additional member, good luck finding the evils since the evils can all feasibly claim RT.

This doesn’t mean “don’t ever change the roles”, by the way. Just the easiest list.

-

Hypnotist is not broken. Just needs the slightest buff to remove all feedback a player gets. I’ve carried games as Hypnotist.

Framer needs some buffs. I’ve outlined ways to buff it before, tell me what you think.

Disguiser‘s in a pretty good spot right now, but still needs changes to impact the game outside of TIs - which Mafia should be killing anyways.


I would object to that list, a 10v5 only works without jailor and without mayor (maye transporter)
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 8:24 pm

Saying something doesn't make it true. Back up your stance the way I just did.

With a 10v5 with claimspace, the Jailor isn't gonna be able to execute nearly as easily unless they utilize scumreads; a Mafia team can play around that by simply not being bad at the game. A Mayor won't be able to as much either if scum can townread the Mayor.

The thing about Town Traitor is that for one of the evils, you MUST make scumreads to win. This Ranked list takes that concept and applies it to every role since you can no longer use process of elimination (part of the reason Town wins so often is because they can cross names off a list; without the guaranteed additional TI, and a single Town alignment of every role in the game, the Town isn't gonna be able to cross names off a list nearly as easily). In fact, this Ranked list applies/encourages scumreading and power-hunting by far better than the current Ranked rolelist does. I predict that the winrate will stay mostly the same, because while Town GAINS a member they LOSE the ability to use PoE, but games will become by far more strategically interesting.

And again, I fully support making Town Power/Government mutually exclusive, but we have to balance lists around the current state of the game. And we can't JUST exclude a role from Ranked (like saying "TK but no Jailor"), that only works if you remove the ABILITY for it to spawn (for example, taking out NB, NK, and Any so NB and NK can't spawn and Jester can only spawn through Exe).
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:13 am

I dont reallt think it would be that wierd, is like VH only spawning if vamps are in the game, but anyway that is not the point

I dont support jailor and mayor in ranked because those 2 make town mistakes waay more forgivable than mafia mistakes
What makes a 10v5 look good (in theory at least) is that it allows both sides to make mistakes and still overcome, due to the nature of the game, town mistakes are already more forgivable (imagine you make a mistake as town, you have 9 other people to help you recover it, as mafia you only have 3-4), imagine town is in a 5v4, witch died and 4 townies died too

Townies lynch a good guy, considering that they have failed to kill a single mafia, and just made a misslynch, town is lost, but if jailor or mayor are alive they can easily overcome all the bad things they did, only needing 1-2 people to do it
Without jailor and without mayor; town needs to coordinate a lot better
Vigi needs to make sure they dont hit GF
Vet needs to make a good bait, which is specially hard to do at that point
TP have to succesfully save someone before they die
Transporter has to predict who will be attacked AND make sure they dont transport vigilante's target

With jailor/mayor all what you need is the power role to stay alive for 1 more day and they can turn the entire game if they are not dumb
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Hagg1s » Mon Oct 25, 2021 4:11 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I dont reallt think it would be that wierd, is like VH only spawning if vamps are in the game, but anyway that is not the point

I dont support jailor and mayor in ranked because those 2 make town mistakes waay more forgivable than mafia mistakes
What makes a 10v5 look good (in theory at least) is that it allows both sides to make mistakes and still overcome, due to the nature of the game, town mistakes are already more forgivable (imagine you make a mistake as town, you have 9 other people to help you recover it, as mafia you only have 3-4), imagine town is in a 5v4, witch died and 4 townies died too

Townies lynch a good guy, considering that they have failed to kill a single mafia, and just made a misslynch, town is lost, but if jailor or mayor are alive they can easily overcome all the bad things they did, only needing 1-2 people to do it
Without jailor and without mayor; town needs to coordinate a lot better
Vigi needs to make sure they dont hit GF
Vet needs to make a good bait, which is specially hard to do at that point
TP have to succesfully save someone before they die
Transporter has to predict who will be attacked AND make sure they dont transport vigilante's target

With jailor/mayor all what you need is the power role to stay alive for 1 more day and they can turn the entire game if they are not dumb


I disagree with all of these points. They are all not good ideas.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Oct 25, 2021 5:03 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:I dont reallt think it would be that wierd, is like VH only spawning if vamps are in the game, but anyway that is not the point

I dont support jailor and mayor in ranked because those 2 make town mistakes waay more forgivable than mafia mistakes
What makes a 10v5 look good (in theory at least) is that it allows both sides to make mistakes and still overcome, due to the nature of the game, town mistakes are already more forgivable (imagine you make a mistake as town, you have 9 other people to help you recover it, as mafia you only have 3-4), imagine town is in a 5v4, witch died and 4 townies died too

Townies lynch a good guy, considering that they have failed to kill a single mafia, and just made a misslynch, town is lost, but if jailor or mayor are alive they can easily overcome all the bad things they did, only needing 1-2 people to do it
Without jailor and without mayor; town needs to coordinate a lot better
Vigi needs to make sure they dont hit GF
Vet needs to make a good bait, which is specially hard to do at that point
TP have to succesfully save someone before they die
Transporter has to predict who will be attacked AND make sure they dont transport vigilante's target

With jailor/mayor all what you need is the power role to stay alive for 1 more day and they can turn the entire game if they are not dumb

That's not an equivalent comparison, but people don't like VH for that reason, among others. The devs themselves have said they're not willing to take out any roles SPECIFICALLY for Ranked and eventually plan on re-adding NB and NK to Ranked.

All of those roles still need to do that (except Vig - hitting GF can be beneficial as you know who the GF is) now, so I don't see why that's relevant.

Town will always need to coordinate with the list I gave, they don't have a choice otherwise because of all the RTs. I think you're severely underestimating how important claimspace is for scum. Part of the reason Town wins so often is because claimspace is limited, and more people claim town than can be town. With RTs its impossible to know which is real beyond scumreading them - and at that point, it's all about who the better player is.

When you have five RTs, meaning you and all your mafia buddies have foolproof claimSPACE, Jailor and Mayor are just additional obstacles. Roles don't play the game. People do. And people can be fooled. In fact, Mayor especially could benefit the Mafia; if they're convincing enough, they could force a player on stand with a single vote. Without a Mayor, they'd need to convince EVERY member of the Town, which could be harder. Jailor's only so powerful now because it acts as an additional lynch, and lynches are powerful now because of the lack of claimspace. If claimspace was solid for scum, Jailor's execute would still be powerful, but also by far easier to manipulate, so it would swing both ways.

I fully support making Mayor/Jailor/the Town Power/Government alignment mutually exclusive, but that doesn't concern this list. To be honest, I'd go as far as to argue that Mayor and especially Jailor are more powerful NOW than they would be in a 10v5 with the list I wrote, because the lack of claimspace means Jailor knows who to execute. And as someone who has won games as Mafia with the current list that had Jailor alongside Mayor, if it's possible now it would certainly be possible with more claimspace.

Again. The list I have presently will result in either THE SAME or LESS wins for Town, not more.

Hagg1s wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:-snip-


I disagree with all of these points. They are all not good ideas.

He didn't actually have any ideas in there, just widely accepted strategies for optimal play as certain roles, so I'm not sure if you meant to respond to me or if you just saw someone post about Town roles and thought "TOWN NERFS BAD! HIGH WINRATE GOOD!" but kindly desist.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Hagg1s » Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:45 am

Kirize12 wrote:
Hagg1s wrote:
syjfwbaobfwl wrote:-snip-


I disagree with all of these points. They are all not good ideas.

He didn't actually have any ideas in there, just widely accepted strategies for optimal play as certain roles, so I'm not sure if you meant to respond to me or if you just saw someone post about Town roles and thought "TOWN NERFS BAD! HIGH WINRATE GOOD!" but kindly desist.


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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby Onyx12 » Wed Oct 27, 2021 8:43 pm

/support

No other game that has a ranked mode has seasons that last an entire year or 2, this needs to stop
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Re: End Ranked Season 5 now

Postby TrillPhonk » Sat Oct 30, 2021 1:32 am

I'm glad someone else pointed out this. Seasons should last 3-5 months maximum, not a year or two, if they reset seasons more often I'm pretty sure they would have more active players right now.
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