Witch in Ranked

Put any feedback about the game here.

Witch in Ranked

Postby roadkill » Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:22 pm

I know a lot of people dislike the new ranked because there's no nk, and where that does make it a bit boring, its not the problem for me. Witch is. Witch is the most boring role ever made. It is fully dependent on the mafia and 9/10s the maf has a dude leave. so then I'm screwed.

If mafia maybe knew who witch was at the start that would at least be interesting.

If witch was told the invest results so they could fake claim easier that would be nice. Why the FUCK do I need to look up the invest results after you changed them so I can make a good invest claim as witch? WHY is that not given to me? There is no reason for that not to be directly given to me. I am OG player and invests results are not the same as they used to so Why isn't it a given.

Both other NEs are way more fun then witch.
I'd rather have my privates ripped off me and force fed to me then get another witch game in ranked.

I'm not saying witch has to be replaced with NK or Maf, but id rather play as survivor then witch. At least my destiny is in my hands then.
roadkill
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:12 am

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:48 am

To be honest, if you're playing ranked you should already know all invest results. It's not that hard. But yes, they should definitely be available ingame. Having some flavor text so they are easier to remember wouldn't hurt.

I personally think witch is a pretty funny role, as I like having control over other players, though it's kinda weird that they need mafia in order to win, but mafia doesn't need them. The fact that they lose if they die feels kinda unfair, but I guess that's necessary so witches don't suicide into the jailor after a misslynch on day 2.

The thing that annoys me about witches is that they are unable to draw. I think that's unfair in a gamemode with only 2 teams. Also, their shield shouldn't protect them against vigilantes.

If mafia knew who the witch is then the witch would become a better consort. Either that, or whispers towards anyone who is not the jailor would be forbidden.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:06 pm

Joacgroso wrote:The thing that annoys me about witches is that they are unable to draw. I think that's unfair in a gamemode with only 2 teams.

what

A draw is a global loss. Any role that has the ability to lose has the ability to draw.

I just needed to call that out specifically.
Joacgroso wrote:To be honest, if you're playing ranked you should already know all invest results. It's not that hard. But yes, they should definitely be available ingame. Having some flavor text so they are easier to remember wouldn't hurt.

It’s a bunch of stuff to memorize, especially when they’ve changed multiple times. I got so used to Esc/Cons/Trans that I didn’t even read “Hypnotist”, and I was the actual Invest in that game.

I personally think witch is a pretty funny role, as I like having control over other players, though it's kinda weird that they need mafia in order to win, but mafia doesn't need them. The fact that they lose if they die feels kinda unfair, but I guess that's necessary so witches don't suicide into the jailor after a misslynch on day 2.

The reason Witch loses if it dies is because if it didn’t, it would just have the combined winrate of every scum role through (arguably) no effort of its own. Personally, I would like to see “Witch Hunting”, aka deliberately denying the Witch a victory when it is unnecessary (killing the Witch before killing the solo Sheriff, for example), made illegal, but it’s not gamethrowing as they aren’t playing to lose.

The thing that annoys me about witches is that they are unable to draw. I think that's unfair in a gamemode with only 2 teams. Also, their shield shouldn't protect them against vigilantes.

Still not sure what that means. A draw happens when every role fails to accomplish their win conditions, so Witch can draw and I have seen draws happen in RP.

The “shield shouldn’t protect them against vigilantes” doesn’t make sense UNLESS it has Invincible Defense against scum attacks. Idk if the devs will go for that considering that...well, they made the system not to be confusing. Witch has Basic Defense, Vig has a Basic Attack. You can’t say “Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante”...despite the fact that I support it.


If mafia knew who the witch is then the witch would become a better consort. Either that, or whispers towards anyone who is not the jailor would be forbidden.

If Witch is lucky enough witch a Mafia member, you have the scum team on a silver platter so it just becomes a better consort anyways.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:48 pm

Kirize12 wrote:A draw is a global loss. Any role that has the ability to lose has the ability to draw.

I just needed to call that out specifically.

Non-factional roles are unable to draw, and this includes witches. I know that draws often feel like losses in this game, but while factional roles get actual draws to their stats when games end in a draw, non-factional roles like witches can only get victories or losses. I know this by experience.
Kirize12 wrote:The reason Witch loses if it dies is because if it didn’t, it would just have the combined winrate of every scum role through (arguably) no effort of its own. Personally, I would like to see “Witch Hunting”, aka deliberately denying the Witch a victory when it is unnecessary (killing the Witch before killing the solo Sheriff, for example), made illegal, but it’s not gamethrowing as they aren’t playing to lose.

Makes sense. I still think there should be some way around that, like maybe changing the goal to surviving until all townies die (for other gamemodes), or surviving until townies are outnumbered by evils and having town lose the game (so witches can win while dead if they were alive when evils got mayority as long as town lost). I get that the latter is pretty complicated. As far as I understand, lynching the witch for the sake of it is already considered harassment.

Kirize12 wrote:The “shield shouldn’t protect them against vigilantes” doesn’t make sense UNLESS it has Invincible Defense against scum attacks. Idk if the devs will go for that considering that...well, they made the system not to be confusing. Witch has Basic Defense, Vig has a Basic Attack. You can’t say “Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante”...despite the fact that I support it.

I don't get why you are bringing up invincible defense. I think witches shouldn't have detection immunity and basic defense against town. That's too harsh on vigis who made a good read. Personally, I think witches should only have protection against evils, and they should at least be able to tell they were doused so they can cooperate with arsonists if that didn't happen (same for survivors). Giving them douse immunity if they control the arso, or just the first time they are doused would work too. It may be complicated, but not that complicated.
Kirize12 wrote:If Witch is lucky enough witch a Mafia member, you have the scum team on a silver platter so it just becomes a better consort anyways.

I don't think we should make this happen in every game. Right now we can watch out for whispers, but if that happened whispers would be banned.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 2:59 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:A draw is a global loss. Any role that has the ability to lose has the ability to draw.

I just needed to call that out specifically.

Non-factional roles are unable to draw, and this includes witches. I know that draws often feel like losses in this game, but while factional roles get actual draws to their stats when games end in a draw, non-factional roles like witches can only get victories or losses. I know this by experience.

That makes sense to be honest. The only way a game can end in a draw is if the Witch dies, which is equivalent to if the Survivor dies. If the Witch dies before the end of the game, it has failed to accomplish its specific win condition and thus loses - why should it get that loss diminished just because the Town played poorly as well?

Kirize12 wrote:The reason Witch loses if it dies is because if it didn’t, it would just have the combined winrate of every scum role through (arguably) no effort of its own. Personally, I would like to see “Witch Hunting”, aka deliberately denying the Witch a victory when it is unnecessary (killing the Witch before killing the solo Sheriff, for example), made illegal, but it’s not gamethrowing as they aren’t playing to lose.

Makes sense. I still think there should be some way around that, like maybe changing the goal to surviving until all townies die (for other gamemodes), or surviving until townies are outnumbered by evils and having town lose the game (so witches can win while dead if they were alive when evils got mayority as long as town lost). I get that the latter is pretty complicated. As far as I understand, lynching the witch for the sake of it is already considered harassment.

I 100% agree that the wincon should be taken literally - once the Town has been marked as "losing the game" (in that, unless the Mafia gamethrows, exits game, or goes AFK, they cannot win) the Witch should be guaranteed a win UNLESS the game ends in a draw. So with a TI, Medium, GF, Mafioso, and Witch - the GF and Mafioso could lynch the Witch with town and the witch would still win, as they have survived to see the town get to a point where they have lost the game.

Alternatively, once the last town member dies the Witch wins no matter what. But that won't do much in Ranked.


Kirize12 wrote:The “shield shouldn’t protect them against vigilantes” doesn’t make sense UNLESS it has Invincible Defense against scum attacks. Idk if the devs will go for that considering that...well, they made the system not to be confusing. Witch has Basic Defense, Vig has a Basic Attack. You can’t say “Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante”...despite the fact that I support it.

I don't get why you are bringing up invincible defense. I think witches shouldn't have detection immunity and basic defense against town. That's too harsh on vigis who made a good read. Personally, I think witches should only have protection against evils, and they should at least be able to tell they were doused so they can cooperate with arsonists if that didn't happen (same for survivors). Giving them douse immunity if they control the arso, or just the first time they are doused would work too. It may be complicated, but not that complicated.

Right. But Basic Attack is Basic Attack. Basic Defense is Basic Defense. Vig has Basic Attack. Witch has Basic Defense. What you're suggesting is saying "Witch has Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante". That feels...necessary, but not streamlined. It needs to be more streamlined. Less clunky.

I bring up Invincible Defense because the Witch Shield should go for ANY scum attack. Including unstoppable. Although the only non-Town role with an unstoppable attack is Juggernaut, which (currently) can't spawn alongside a Witch...hm. Maybe just Powerful Defense instead?

Kirize12 wrote:If Witch is lucky enough witch a Mafia member, you have the scum team on a silver platter so it just becomes a better consort anyways.

I don't think we should make this happen in every game. Right now we can watch out for whispers, but if that happened whispers would be banned.
My point is Witch shouldn't get their targets roles. But whatever.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:14 pm

Kirize12 wrote:That makes sense to be honest. The only way a game can end in a draw is if the Witch dies, which is equivalent to if the Survivor dies. If the Witch dies before the end of the game, it has failed to accomplish its specific win condition and thus loses - why should it get that loss diminished just because the Town played poorly as well?

A game can end in a draw with a witch alive if it ends by timeout. For example, if the last 4 players are mafioso, witch, jailor (no executions) and sheriff, then the mafioso, jailor and sheriff will get a draw while the witch will get a loss, which is unfair to me. That's what I was complaining about.
Kirize12 wrote:I 100% agree that the wincon should be taken literally - once the Town has been marked as "losing the game" (in that, unless the Mafia gamethrows, exits game, or goes AFK, they cannot win) the Witch should be guaranteed a win UNLESS the game ends in a draw. So with a TI, Medium, GF, Mafioso, and Witch - the GF and Mafioso could lynch the Witch with town and the witch would still win, as they have survived to see the town get to a point where they have lost the game.

This would be ideal. Witches should still get a draw if they survive, though.
Kirize12 wrote:Alternatively, once the last town member dies the Witch wins no matter what. But that won't do much in Ranked.

I agree. It would be simpler too.

Kirize12 wrote:Right. But Basic Attack is Basic Attack. Basic Defense is Basic Defense. Vig has Basic Attack. Witch has Basic Defense. What you're suggesting is saying "Witch has Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante". That feels...necessary, but not streamlined. It needs to be more streamlined. Less clunky.

I bring up Invincible Defense because the Witch Shield should go for ANY scum attack. Including unstoppable. Although the only non-Town role with an unstoppable attack is Juggernaut, which (currently) can't spawn alongside a Witch...hm. Maybe just Powerful Defense instead?

There are also arsonists. But I guess NKs might be interested in killing witches so they don't side with mafia, while having scum immunity works as an incentive for witches to help the NK, who usually has to rely on kingmakers in order to win.

Kirize12 wrote:My point is Witch shouldn't get their targets roles. But whatever.

I remember being weirded out when BMG announced that buff. I don't know if it's that relevant, though. Being able to coordinate with mafia in some way is cool. But I do feel like witches have too many attributes.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:38 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:That makes sense to be honest. The only way a game can end in a draw is if the Witch dies, which is equivalent to if the Survivor dies. If the Witch dies before the end of the game, it has failed to accomplish its specific win condition and thus loses - why should it get that loss diminished just because the Town played poorly as well?

A game can end in a draw with a witch alive if it ends by timeout. For example, if the last 4 players are mafioso, witch, jailor (no executions) and sheriff, then the mafioso, jailor and sheriff will get a draw while the witch will get a loss, which is unfair to me. That's what I was complaining about.

That is almost certainly a bug, not a feature. I’d put it in bug reports.
Kirize12 wrote:I 100% agree that the wincon should be taken literally - once the Town has been marked as "losing the game" (in that, unless the Mafia gamethrows, exits game, or goes AFK, they cannot win) the Witch should be guaranteed a win UNLESS the game ends in a draw. So with a TI, Medium, GF, Mafioso, and Witch - the GF and Mafioso could lynch the Witch with town and the witch would still win, as they have survived to see the town get to a point where they have lost the game.

This would be ideal. Witches should still get a draw if they survive, though.
Kirize12 wrote:Alternatively, once the last town member dies the Witch wins no matter what. But that won't do much in Ranked.

I agree. It would be simpler too.

I don’t particularly care but it shouldn’t be treated as an anti-Town survivor.

Kirize12 wrote:Right. But Basic Attack is Basic Attack. Basic Defense is Basic Defense. Vig has Basic Attack. Witch has Basic Defense. What you're suggesting is saying "Witch has Basic Defense UNLESS there is a Vigilante". That feels...necessary, but not streamlined. It needs to be more streamlined. Less clunky.

I bring up Invincible Defense because the Witch Shield should go for ANY scum attack. Including unstoppable. Although the only non-Town role with an unstoppable attack is Juggernaut, which (currently) can't spawn alongside a Witch...hm. Maybe just Powerful Defense instead?

There are also arsonists. But I guess NKs might be interested in killing witches so they don't side with mafia, while having scum immunity works as an incentive for witches to help the NK, who usually has to rely on kingmakers in order to win.

The douse should be treated as an attack tbh. And again, I support Vigilante being able to decimate Witch, but it needs to be less clunky because right now it feels like “these Basic attacks work but not other Basic attacks.” And “Scum Immunity” isn’t in the list of viable Defense options...
Kirize12 wrote:My point is Witch shouldn't get their targets roles. But whatever.

I remember being weirded out when BMG announced that buff. I don't know if it's that relevant, though. Being able to coordinate with mafia in some way is cool. But I do feel like witches have too many attributes.
I think the biggest problem is people feel the need to make Witch and Coven Leader identical, despite them being different roles. I have almost zero issue with CL finding it’s targets roles, especially since I don’t play Coven.

This doesn’t hold true for Witch, as it isn’t balanced for investigative properties. Here’s my ideal Witch:
-total scum immunity the first night it is attacked
-astral visits
-forces players to visit even if they have no Night ability
-no seeing players roles or feedback siphoning
-literal wincon interpretation
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:49 pm

Why should witches be immune to veterans? This would force vigis to fakeclaim something outside their alignement. To be fair, we already have some clunky mechanics, like jailors dealing unstoppable attacks that can be stopped by a GA's powerful defense.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 4:09 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Why should witches be immune to veterans? This would force vigis to fakeclaim something outside their alignement. To be fair, we already have some clunky mechanics, like jailors dealing unstoppable attacks that can be stopped by a GA's powerful defense.

Astral visits isn’t solely Vet Immunity (although I suppose it is in Ranked). But it should be able to force the Veteran on/off alert as right now it’s useless against it, and should also be able to force roles like Mayor to walk into Vet.

Nerfing Town is good, btw. Vigi should stay hidden as long as Witch exists. But I agree this should only be done in conjunction with making Vig able to shoot Witch.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 18, 2021 8:16 pm

But witches can always send people into the vet/lynch the vet (since the witch will always have at least one partner). I don't think there's a need to buff them. I don't like the idea of punishing vets for making a good bait. Personally I don't like a meta that forces town to fakeclaim, but I guess that's popular in high elo. It's just that making vigis even worse doesn't sound good to me. That's not the nerf they need.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:15 pm

Joacgroso wrote:But witches can always send people into the vet/lynch the vet (since the witch will always have at least one partner). I don't think there's a need to buff them. I don't like the idea of punishing vets for making a good bait. Personally I don't like a meta that forces town to fakeclaim, but I guess that's popular in high elo. It's just that making vigis even worse doesn't sound good to me. That's not the nerf they need.

Vet isn't punished for making good bait with the Witch changes. It just makes it so Witch can manipulate Vet as much as Vig. Reduces swing.

Also, Vet and Lookout are some of the most powerful town roles, and giving Witch astral visits helps that.

If we make Vigilante have jailor's guilt, this is fine and solid counterbalancing.

We pretty much spent the day debating game changes lol.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:08 am

I think the vet is being punished for making a good bait because if he baits the witch his bait is ruined. Right now, witches can already counter vets if they stumble into them. Just send a townie into them every night so the vet kills them or has to wait until the witch dies to alert again.

Lookouts are OP, but that's because they confirm a lot of townies, not because they catch evils. That's not what we should be nerfing, I think. Though now that they were already nerfed, I don't know how they could be nerfed again.

Jailor's guilt for vigilante makes sense. It reduces the swing.

Kirize12 wrote:We pretty much spent the day debating game changes lol.

Wow. They were 2 days, actually.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 1:35 pm

Yeah, but that’s a single role that he doesn’t actually have to kill to win. Plus, as long as the Witch doesn’t know he’s a vet (by way of removing the ability), it should be fine.

Vet is pretty weak in the meta given he can only kill Mafia once, if there’s an NK it’s more balanced but balance shouldn’t rely on the setup. Personally, I’d like to see some reworks, including non-uniqueness (compounded with other changes) because Mafia has to be able to claim a TK role (and it’s a lot easier than Vig without other changes made).

I think the Lookout nerf is heavily dependent on RNG and should be reversed. In exchange, Lookout shouldn’t be able to visit a player twice in a row OR it should see killers that aren’t alone as “masked visitors”. (If a killer is the only visitor, you will still see them - otherwise, you’ll confirm that everyone you saw is not the killer).
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:35 pm

The lookout nerf makes sense to me, though we are getting off-topic. If we include all your suggestions, witches stopping vets isn't that bad because it's unlikely they will be able to coordinate with mafia to take advantage of it. Non-unique vets sound like a nightmare for mafia, but that's a topic for another thread.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Sun Sep 19, 2021 7:07 pm

Back on topic then. Responses in bold.

roadkill wrote:I know a lot of people dislike the new ranked because there's no nk, and where that does make it a bit boring, its not the problem for me. Witch is. Witch is the most boring role ever made. It is fully dependent on the mafia and 9/10s the maf has a dude leave. so then I'm screwed.

Witch is boring, partially because the fun of Witch was figuring out people’s roles as a result of your controls. Now it’s given to you straight up. It was supposed to buff the Witch but ended up taking a big part of the game - figuring out your allies - out of it. The solution is to replace the Witchsigliere with astral visits and forcing players to visit even if they don’t have a night ability.

Also, you can win even if the Mafia leave. I’ve seen it happen. And even if you can’t, we unfortunately can’t balance around gamethrowers (although a replace-in/reconnect system might be nice).


If mafia maybe knew who witch was at the start that would at least be interesting.

Again, part of the fun of Witch is figuring out who the Mafia are. This is taken away if Mafia knew who Witch is. Witch needs to be a Neutral Evil. Not a Mafia member without access to the night chat.

If witch was told the invest results so they could fake claim easier that would be nice. Why the FUCK do I need to look up the invest results after you changed them so I can make a good invest claim as witch? WHY is that not given to me? There is no reason for that not to be directly given to me. I am OG player and invests results are not the same as they used to so Why isn't it a given.

Having to look up Invest results is a problem that we can fix. If you’d like Kikigiri’s invest rework, which captures the same concept as an Investigator but without a list, let me know. I can’t hijack the thread to post it though.

Both other NEs are way more fun then witch.
I'd rather have my privates ripped off me and force fed to me then get another witch game in ranked.

There are no other NES besides Witch. Jester is Neutral Benign in an NE slot, and EXE is already in Ranked.

I do agree that adding more anti-Town NES is a good idea.


I'm not saying witch has to be replaced with NK or Maf, but id rather play as survivor then witch. At least my destiny is in my hands then.

You can control destiny either way, as you have an autovest and the ability to control to find roles.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Sep 20, 2021 4:28 pm

Kirize12 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:Why should witches be immune to veterans? This would force vigis to fakeclaim something outside their alignement. To be fair, we already have some clunky mechanics, like jailors dealing unstoppable attacks that can be stopped by a GA's powerful defense.

Astral visits isn’t solely Vet Immunity (although I suppose it is in Ranked). But it should be able to force the Veteran on/off alert as right now it’s useless against it, and should also be able to force roles like Mayor to walk into Vet.

Nerfing Town is good, btw. Vigi should stay hidden as long as Witch exists. But I agree this should only be done in conjunction with making Vig able to shoot Witch.


Astral visits in ranked is basically LO/vet/ambusher immunity, so yeah in ranked it doesnt seems like a big deal
Witch cant do that because vet is immune to controls, just like transporter or retributionist

And if you remove vet's control immunity then yeah you punish vets for making good baits, if veteran baits and evil AND witch, then the evils dont die, and vet dies if they baited a killer
Vet is already kind of screwed with witch, if the vet is revealed then alerting is not something the vet would like to do if they dint want to kill townies due to witch (which also opens space for mafia to kill vet)

But anyway I dont think that vigi being vulnerable to witch is a reason to make vet vulnerable to witch too, actually imho that is a reason for vet to NOT be vulnerable

Vet and vigi are 2 sides of the same coin
As vigi you want to lay low, not draw the attention of anyone and attemp to not be targeted (even if there is no witch)
As vet you want to bring the attention of evils, be talktative and attemp to get targeted

As vigi you have to scumread a lot, you want to go towards the evils
As vet scumreading isnt that necesary, and instead of going towards evils you want evils to go towards you

Vigi having 2 bullets and jailor guilt is something everyone agreed with


Being able to send non visiting roles into others its a fair thing (it happens with certain roles but...not completely)

The problem with the "live to see evils have majority" is that several roles can turn a 5v6 (or even a 4v6 if they all coordinate)
And also in all any most of times town is minority and (even if no one plays it) in rainbow aswell

The total scum immunity is also a fair thing

About the removal of consig ability idk what to say, what about seeing invest results? Yeah feedback stealing is not a good thing imo
syjfwbaobfwl
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:36 pm

Vet shouldn't be control immune, it should be able to be forced on/off alert. Vet punishes Maf for making good kills, making it less powerful is a good thing.

Who the hell is "everyone" because I do not agree with Vig losing a bullet AND getting Jailor's guilt. Either lose a bullet and no guilt or keep the bullets but Jailor's guilt.

It's not "live to see evils have majority", it's "live to see Town lose the game". In Rainbow, Town has the ability to win, despite them not having the majority. If there's any situation where Town can no longer win - e.g. Invest, Doctor, Sheriff, Escort vs GF, Mafioso, Framer, Consort, Witch - Witch would get the win as the Town literally cannot win. But just making it a literal interpretation, so it wins when the last Town member dies, would be better.

Witch can deduce a player's role through their control, indirectly. It doesn't need investigative abilities on top of that.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:49 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Vet shouldn't be control immune, it should be able to be forced on/off alert. Vet punishes Maf for making good kills, making it less powerful is a good thing.

Who the hell is "everyone" because I do not agree with Vig losing a bullet AND getting Jailor's guilt. Either lose a bullet and no guilt or keep the bullets but Jailor's guilt.

It's not "live to see evils have majority", it's "live to see Town lose the game". In Rainbow, Town has the ability to win, despite them not having the majority. If there's any situation where Town can no longer win - e.g. Invest, Doctor, Sheriff, Escort vs GF, Mafioso, Framer, Consort, Witch - Witch would get the win as the Town literally cannot win. But just making it a literal interpretation, so it wins when the last Town member dies, would be better.

Witch can deduce a player's role through their control, indirectly. It doesn't need investigative abilities on top of that.


How vet punishes maf for making good kills? If mafia attacked vet on alert then either vet did a good play by baiting mafia or mafia did a bad play by targeting vet (unless its n1 but half the actions are random n1) so no, vet doesnt punishes mafia for good kills, vet punishes mafia for BAD kills
Anyway vet is not that strong, a veteran is very unlikely to make town get majority after they lose it, while vigi can easily do that if they coordinate with the rest of town, not to mention a good vet is a lot more likely to kill a townie than a good vigi

I still think vet is fine with control immunity for the reasons I explained

You could say that bg and trapper also punish mafia for making good kills

By everyone I mean "the people who were there when alex suggested it"
He had a solid point, a good vigi can single handely kill hald the evils (or at least out them due to their defense), a bad vigi can singlehandely lose the game for town, so he suggested -1 bullet to avoid the first thing, and jailor guilt to avoid the second one

Ah ok, I didnt understand what you meant, I agree with it

Ig you are right, I cant say much since I wasnt here when witch didnt have consigliere ability
syjfwbaobfwl
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 20, 2021 8:32 pm

I mean, you can only deduce the role of your target if the are a killing role or a roleblocker. Other than that, there isn't much you can do, other than praying the witched person won't claim witched to signal you, which can also be done by a townie.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:46 pm

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Vet shouldn't be control immune, it should be able to be forced on/off alert. Vet punishes Maf for making good kills, making it less powerful is a good thing.

Who the hell is "everyone" because I do not agree with Vig losing a bullet AND getting Jailor's guilt. Either lose a bullet and no guilt or keep the bullets but Jailor's guilt.

It's not "live to see evils have majority", it's "live to see Town lose the game". In Rainbow, Town has the ability to win, despite them not having the majority. If there's any situation where Town can no longer win - e.g. Invest, Doctor, Sheriff, Escort vs GF, Mafioso, Framer, Consort, Witch - Witch would get the win as the Town literally cannot win. But just making it a literal interpretation, so it wins when the last Town member dies, would be better.

Witch can deduce a player's role through their control, indirectly. It doesn't need investigative abilities on top of that.


How vet punishes maf for making good kills? If mafia attacked vet on alert then either vet did a good play by baiting mafia or mafia did a bad play by targeting vet (unless its n1 but half the actions are random n1) so no, vet doesnt punishes mafia for good kills, vet punishes mafia for BAD kills
Anyway vet is not that strong, a veteran is very unlikely to make town get majority after they lose it, while vigi can easily do that if they coordinate with the rest of town, not to mention a good vet is a lot more likely to kill a townie than a good vigi

I still think vet is fine with control immunity for the reasons I explained

You could say that bg and trapper also punish mafia for making good kills

By everyone I mean "the people who were there when alex suggested it"
He had a solid point, a good vigi can single handely kill hald the evils (or at least out them due to their defense), a bad vigi can singlehandely lose the game for town, so he suggested -1 bullet to avoid the first thing, and jailor guilt to avoid the second one

Ah ok, I didnt understand what you meant, I agree with it

Ig you are right, I cant say much since I wasnt here when witch didnt have consigliere ability

Vet is supposed to act pro-town to bait Mafia into killing it. TPs will likely be on Jailor so Mafia basically can kill whoever they feel like killing, Investigatives wont investigate anyone acting pro-town, so Vet punishes Mafia for making good kills.

Vet is actually one of the most likely roles to give Town majority after they lose it, since it kills through immunity. A Vig can't.

And yeah, BG and Trapper target people likely to be protected. Veteran is high risk, high reward, and if that extends to Jailor it should extent to Vet. We can buff Vet in other ways.

In that case, complete guilt removal is more balanced. It shouldn't be docked a bullet, that's just clunky, but if it is, get rid of the guilt mechanic.

Joacgroso wrote:I mean, you can only deduce the role of your target if the are a killing role or a roleblocker. Other than that, there isn't much you can do, other than praying the witched person won't claim witched to signal you, which can also be done by a townie.

yeah, and now u know that person isnt a killer or roleblocker
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:36 pm

Kirize12 wrote:yeah, and now u know that person isnt a killer or roleblocker

That doesn't sound very fun, I have to disagree with the OP on that. Finding a RM and coordinating early sounds a lot better.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
User avatar
Joacgroso
Werewolf
Werewolf
 
Posts: 3734
Joined: Mon May 02, 2016 6:21 pm
Location: Argentina

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Sep 21, 2021 9:45 am

Kirize12 wrote:Vet is supposed to act pro-town to bait Mafia into killing it. TPs will likely be on Jailor so Mafia basically can kill whoever they feel like killing, Investigatives wont investigate anyone acting pro-town, so Vet punishes Mafia for making good kills.

I still dont understand why vet is a good kill, mafia knows the potential existance of a veteran so they have to think well who to attack
Thats the same reason to why mafia shouldnt attack mayor/jailor/transporter instantly


Vet is actually one of the most likely roles to give Town majority after they lose it, since it kills through immunity. A Vig can't.

Thats only on paper (considering a balanced rolelist) if mafia has majority then they already know who the vet is, even if they dont they can lynch unclaimed townies and attack people they know is not vet

And yeah, BG and Trapper target people likely to be protected. Veteran is high risk, high reward, and if that extends to Jailor it should extent to Vet. We can buff Vet in other ways.

sorry but what does jailor have to do with this? And I dont think vet needs to be buffed (neither to be nerfed)

In that case, complete guilt removal is more balanced. It shouldn't be docked a bullet, that's just clunky, but if it is, get rid of the guilt mechanic.

There should still be a punishment for killing a townie
syjfwbaobfwl
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Ezio216707 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 10:09 am

To be honest ranked is kinda braindead lately as is.


Had a Godfather claim medium D4, barely 1 sentence will, no copy and paste from dead chat.
Ironically enough the only 2 people that voted guilty were also mafia.

Sheep. But that's just how the game goes I guess.


Back on topic though since I don't know how this discussion went from "Witch is boring as hell" to "punishment for killing a townie"
Witch is most definitely boring to play, correct. If mafia has less than 4 brain cells, you are screwed. Correct.
However if we throw NK in there, we throw things a bit off balance in the eyes of some players (Honestly you will probably win as Witch easier than winning as SK or WW. Let's be honest, that hardly happened)

So I agree, replace Surv with Witch, or have it Jester + Exe (So there can be 2 Jesters at a time if target dies)
Or witch needs some kind of re-work, such as in the Card Game version where the witch silently poisons everyone and once everyone is poisoned, they all die and witch wins. (That would be really shitty for TOS itself but that's a suggestion)
Currently: Pop Flashing Mid with a Tec-9 and expecting anything good to come of it.


Image Image
User avatar
Ezio216707
Jester
Jester
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:21 am
Location: Basically Detroit.

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby Kirize12 » Tue Sep 21, 2021 1:04 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:yeah, and now u know that person isnt a killer or roleblocker

That doesn't sound very fun, I have to disagree with the OP on that. Finding a RM and coordinating early sounds a lot better.

Trying to deduce their role/alignment through controls is actually more fun than it being given to you.

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
Kirize12 wrote:Vet is supposed to act pro-town to bait Mafia into killing it. TPs will likely be on Jailor so Mafia basically can kill whoever they feel like killing, Investigatives wont investigate anyone acting pro-town, so Vet punishes Mafia for making good kills.

I still dont understand why vet is a good kill, mafia knows the potential existance of a veteran so they have to think well who to attack
Thats the same reason to why mafia shouldnt attack mayor/jailor/transporter instantly


Vet is actually one of the most likely roles to give Town majority after they lose it, since it kills through immunity. A Vig can't.

Thats only on paper (considering a balanced rolelist) if mafia has majority then they already know who the vet is, even if they dont they can lynch unclaimed townies and attack people they know is not vet

And yeah, BG and Trapper target people likely to be protected. Veteran is high risk, high reward, and if that extends to Jailor it should extent to Vet. We can buff Vet in other ways.

sorry but what does jailor have to do with this? And I dont think vet needs to be buffed (neither to be nerfed)

In that case, complete guilt removal is more balanced. It shouldn't be docked a bullet, that's just clunky, but if it is, get rid of the guilt mechanic.

There should still be a punishment for killing a townie

Vet is supposed to act pro-town so Mafia thinks they're a good target. If Vet is scumhunting and carrying the game, Mafia attacks them - and dies.

Yeah, but you'd never see a Vet vs GF standoff.

Jailor is an incredibly high risk, high reward role. If Jailor can be high risk high reward, so can Vet. If this is too much of a nerf, we can buff it in other ways. That's what I meant. I'm not saying buff Vet straight up.

That's why keeping the bullets, but jailor's guilt, is better. There's more to lose so you're less likely to shoot in the first place. If you shoot scum you essentially get a "free bullet" if you take away a Vig bullet, if you shoot town it's no big deal cuz it's only an extra bullet.
Factional balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because they cause Town to win a disproportionate amount

Strategical balance - understanding that whisper games are bad because there's no reason to use any other strategy

Structural balance - understanding that disabling the Mayor's whispers, despite it fixing whisper games, means that a player can't use a core mechanic of the game and is still bad

This matters - educate yourself.
User avatar
Kirize12
Sponsor
Sponsor
 
Posts: 8938
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:50 am
Location: Tony Stark in Ranked

Re: Witch in Ranked

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Sep 21, 2021 4:10 pm

Kirize12 wrote:Vet is supposed to act pro-town so Mafia thinks they're a good target. If Vet is scumhunting and carrying the game, Mafia attacks them - and dies.
yeah, so vet is a bad kill, and punishes mafia for making a bad kill (unless vet playing russian roulette and alerts without doing anything, but balance should take in consideration good players anyway)

Yeah, but you'd never see a Vet vs GF standoff.
I have, many times and I have been vet and killer in that situation, in ranked (and any balanced mode) those are super unlikely to happen, and even then most of times the vet has only 1 alert, so the killer usually has advantage (unless its arso)

Jailor is an incredibly high risk, high reward role. If Jailor can be high risk high reward, so can Vet. If this is too much of a nerf, we can buff it in other ways. That's what I meant. I'm not saying buff Vet straight up.
Vet is way more high risk-high reward than vet but anyway thats not the point
I know, but I still think its better to leave vet like that instead of doing (in my opinion) unnecesary nerfs and then buffing it to compensate the nerfs


That's why keeping the bullets, but jailor's guilt, is better. There's more to lose so you're less likely to shoot in the first place. If you shoot scum you essentially get a "free bullet" if you take away a Vig bullet, if you shoot town it's no big deal cuz it's only an extra bullet.
you have a point, but witch is there (and will be always there) complete removal of guilt would be a nightmare
syjfwbaobfwl
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 634
Joined: Thu May 07, 2020 1:50 pm

Next

Return to Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest