Why current ranked will always be flawed.

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Why current ranked will always be flawed.

Postby Soulshade55r » Sat Jul 17, 2021 6:45 am

I wanna start this by saying I don't advocate for old ranked in any way shape or form as it's a very "unbalanced" mess.
But current ranked is pretty unfun and decided too quick a lot of the times.

The Role list being 9v6 Means the Mafia generally need to get one kill cause a miss lynch & then kill successfully the next night meaning that you will get Majority D3 a lot of the time meaning town has basically lost at that point unless they've got certain roles.

In the same way Jailors entire existence is so oppressive to the mafia that in general towns entire win depends on one person being competent and targeting the right players, It becomes less about finding a minority faction in a majority faction or gaining majority as a minority faction, it becomes more of who can use there night actions more effectively and target the right person, it ruins all social aspects of the game, as in general the first two days are just too strong and lead to no proper long lasting social games.

The only way I could ever see this possibly being fixed is moving towards a 5v10 with heavy town and jailor nerfs while majorly buffing mafia & adding tactical mafia for more Varity mafia role lists

In a 5v10
N1: 5V9, D2: 5V8, N2: 5V7, D3: 5V6, N3: 5V5
Meaning Town has some leniency towards lynching and with mafia having one kill everynight and town miss lynching twice it would take until d4 instead of d3 which means town has to mess up twice to be actually really punished.

5V10 currently WOULDN'T work because of how powerful some town roles are
Mainly: Jailor
but also: Mayor, Transporter, Lookout

Neutrals:
Roles like (Exe/Jester) have zero place in a ranked setting unless you advocate for Nbs and nks to be back in ranked.
Witch lacks Varity there needs to be more actual "ne's" who are against the town.

Problematic Mafia roles:
Take note that mafias kpn via ambusher can just be doubled because why not I'm sure that's fun and wacky? Ambusher shouldn't be a thing it doesn't really work, It should at least be rebalanced into what either way

Disguiser, Consig, Hypno, Framer Are all generally throwaway mafia roles nowadays
Disguiser: has a pretty neat ability but the existence of spy screws it over
Consig: is useless as you know anyone you check will be town apart from the NE's which in general the witch finds you early and the EXE is easy to tell for evils.
Hypno: sucks because spy exists
Framer: Sucks because spy exists, and it's too slow to do anything 90% of the time.

GF & Mafioso would also need to be reworked or whatever if tactical mafia was a thing

Town roles:
Spy: negates A lot of RM for the little price of sitting there doing nothing all game
Lo: sits on jailor or mayor and gets easy infomation without having to think about whos going to be visited/attacked
Sheriff: Kinda weirdly balanced with how many detection immunity roles exist, can find 3 mafia per game which one of those mafia can promote into a godfather making them unable to find, disguiser can hide mafia and framer can make people sussy bakas, so in general this role is really weak
Doctor & Bodyguard: they shouldn't be able to protect the same player in a row.
Jailor: literally so overpowered it breaks the game and creates metas
Mayor: weirdly balanced random PR role
Escort: Super useless early game, super useful late game
Transporter: Honestly my main issue is self transports
Vigilante & Veteran: have very strong carrying potential but also very easily can screw over the entire town into a easy loss.


In general the role list is a mess but I feel like im yelling at a wall right now because none of this will ever likely changed as there's a new game coming out honestly kinda sad to see the state of ranked.
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Re: Why current ranked will always be flawed.

Postby Benn3 » Sun Jul 18, 2021 5:51 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:I wanna start this by saying I don't advocate for old ranked in any way shape or form as it's a very "unbalanced" mess.
But current ranked is pretty unfun and decided too quick a lot of the times.

The Role list being 9v6 Means the Mafia generally need to get one kill cause a miss lynch & then kill successfully the next night meaning that you will get Majority D3 a lot of the time meaning town has basically lost at that point unless they've got certain roles.

In the same way Jailors entire existence is so oppressive to the mafia that in general towns entire win depends on one person being competent and targeting the right players, It becomes less about finding a minority faction in a majority faction or gaining majority as a minority faction, it becomes more of who can use there night actions more effectively and target the right person, it ruins all social aspects of the game, as in general the first two days are just too strong and lead to no proper long lasting social games.

The only way I could ever see this possibly being fixed is moving towards a 5v10 with heavy town and jailor nerfs while majorly buffing mafia & adding tactical mafia for more Varity mafia role lists

In a 5v10
N1: 5V9, D2: 5V8, N2: 5V7, D3: 5V6, N3: 5V5
Meaning Town has some leniency towards lynching and with mafia having one kill everynight and town miss lynching twice it would take until d4 instead of d3 which means town has to mess up twice to be actually really punished.

5V10 currently WOULDN'T work because of how powerful some town roles are
Mainly: Jailor
but also: Mayor, Transporter, Lookout

Neutrals:
Roles like (Exe/Jester) have zero place in a ranked setting unless you advocate for Nbs and nks to be back in ranked.
Witch lacks Varity there needs to be more actual "ne's" who are against the town.

Executioner is essential for Ranked. Without them, it's much harder to defend yourself early on if you get outted. If there's no Executioner, if anybody gets accused, it's too easy to trust the accuser.

Problematic Mafia roles:
Take note that mafias kpn via ambusher can just be doubled because why not I'm sure that's fun and wacky? Ambusher shouldn't be a thing it doesn't really work, It should at least be rebalanced into what either way

Ambusher can be found out pretty easily due to how if more than one person visits their target, they'll see them ambush. They have to play pretty well to not get caught, although it's too easy to gain majority with them. I like playing the role, as it requires you to strategically select people that will only have one person visit, but I don't think they should KILL, they should do something else that requires them to still use the same ability.

Disguiser, Consig, Hypno, Framer Are all generally throwaway mafia roles nowadays

Consig is not a throw away. They can find important Town roles and NEs. I do think they deserve a buff though, such as being notified how many people exist in the alignment of the person you checked, which is already on the TG role-card.

Disguiser: has a pretty neat ability but the existence of spy screws it over

Even without Spy it usually fails to be useful enough. Most of the time you're just kind of a paper-weight. I think they should be reworked. Spy instantly outting that there's a Disguiser is a problem with Spy though.

Consig: is useless as you know anyone you check will be town apart from the NE's which in general the witch finds you early and the EXE is easy to tell for evils.

Read what I said earlier about Consig.

Hypno: sucks because spy exists

The main problem isn't Spy. The main problem is that its main ability just doesn't help the Mafia in any way. It's very rare where you can hypnotize somebody without them realizing that they were hypnotized. They only come in use if for example, their last Mafia(Killing) member is jailed. Then they can hypno the jailor into being attacked. But that's it, they serve no other purpose other than to give themselves a fake claim which can easily be torn apart.

Framer: Sucks because spy exists, and it's too slow to do anything 90% of the time.

The reason Framer exists is because it's just a garbage role. Investigators instantly realize somebody is framed due to you only being able to choose "Framer, Vampire, Jester" as a result, making it a counter to Sheriffs where usually they STILL don't come in use. They need to be able to counter ALL investigative roles. Spy just makes them even worse from the horrible role they already are.

GF & Mafioso would also need to be reworked or whatever if tactical mafia was a thing

Yeah, TMK would be so much better than the current system. Mafioso only exists so that if the GF gets RBD, they leave instead, and vice versa. They're just a duplicate of the GF. Adding TMK and removing Mafioso would make the system much better.

Town roles:
Spy: negates A lot of RM for the little price of sitting there doing nothing all game

Yeah the issue with Spy is that they fuck over a bunch of the Mafia roles without having to work for it. There's no strategical play in just sitting and seeing who the Mafia visits.

Lo: sits on jailor or mayor and gets easy infomation without having to think about whos going to be visited/attacked

That's an issue with the TP/LO meta. Lookout's main purpose is to confirm Townies for the most part, along with being able to out Mafia roles.

Sheriff: Kinda weirdly balanced with how many detection immunity roles exist, can find 3 mafia per game which one of those mafia can promote into a godfather making them unable to find, disguiser can hide mafia and framer can make people sussy bakas, so in general this role is really weak

Sheriff is not weak. It's just that they're much more balanced compared to other roles in the game. Although there are some roles that shouldn't have detection immunity, like the Witch. They're NE but I don't think they should be immune to Sheriffs.

Doctor & Bodyguard: they shouldn't be able to protect the same player in a row.

Definite no. Mafia could way too easily kill important players just by waiting out the TPs. There must be a different solution if you want to nerf them.

Jailor: literally so overpowered it breaks the game and creates metas

The main issue is that they are instantly confirmed, and their main ability is really powerful. The role itself is really fun to play but yeah, the game shouldn't be built around it. Removing jail armor and the super role block(unless they execute the person they jailed) is probably a good first step into nerfing them.

Mayor: weirdly balanced random PR role

I feel like people overexaggerate with how OP Mayor is. Compare them to Transporter and Escort, two roles that can single handedly save a game. Medium and Retributionist are more underpowered, but that's because they are more balanced. Mayor still a powerful role but it's not the BEST role in the game I'd say.

Escort: Super useless early game, super useful late game

True I guess, since usually you end up RBing Town members, and if you RB a GF/Mafioso, the other one will just leave instead.

Transporter: Honestly my main issue is self transports

Transports should be silent, and they should have only ONE self transport that's sort of like their "vest".

Vigilante & Veteran: have very strong carrying potential but also very easily can screw over the entire town into a easy loss.

These two roles are very fun to play. They're both balanced, it's just that in the hands of the wrong person, they can fuck over Town. Veteran takes a big part in the social aspect; you really have to try and be active to get evils to target you. Vigilante is based off scum-reading, although there's always the dumb people who use RNG to choose who they want to shoot. Some people just wait until there's a confirmed evil. Vigilante shouldn't die of guilt, they should just put their gun away. However in return they should only have 2 bullets.

In general the role list is a mess but I feel like im yelling at a wall right now because none of this will ever likely changed as there's a new game coming out honestly kinda sad to see the state of ranked.
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Re: Why current ranked will always be flawed.

Postby alex1234321 » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:25 pm

I couldn't agree more.

9v6 means that the game is resolved too quickly, and the team that makes the first mistake is the one that loses. With a 10v5 setup, the winning team is the one that performs better more consistently.

I like Neutrals and think they create necessary depth in the game. I'm planning on writing a longer post on my thoughts about each alignment, but I believe that any of the four alignments can fit in a Ranked rolelist if balanced properly.

The Mafia roles in general are way too weak right now. Completely reworking Spy would be a step in the right direction, but most Mafia roles need some sort of buff. At a minimum, Framer and Disguiser should be able to fool all TIs.

No Town role should ever be able to confirm itself beyond reasonable doubt. Jailor and Mayor should be removed from Ranked. They are both self-confirming Town roles, which does not work in a game where Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority. Transporter should not have notifications, and Lookout should have larger restrictions on who it can see with some sort of priority list.
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Re: Why current ranked will always be flawed.

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:40 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I couldn't agree more.

9v6 means that the game is resolved too quickly, and the team that makes the first mistake is the one that loses. With a 10v5 setup, the winning team is the one that performs better more consistently.

I like Neutrals and think they create necessary depth in the game. I'm planning on writing a longer post on my thoughts about each alignment, but I believe that any of the four alignments can fit in a Ranked rolelist if balanced properly.

The Mafia roles in general are way too weak right now. Completely reworking Spy would be a step in the right direction, but most Mafia roles need some sort of buff. At a minimum, Framer and Disguiser should be able to fool all TIs.

No Town role should ever be able to confirm itself beyond reasonable doubt. Jailor and Mayor should be removed from Ranked. They are both self-confirming Town roles, which does not work in a game where Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority. Transporter should not have notifications, and Lookout should have larger restrictions on who it can see with some sort of priority list.


NK still caused to much swing, I dont think bringing them back is a good solution

Yeah we have some trash mafia roles *cough* framer *cough* hypno, that do need reworks tho (disguiser already decieves all TIs)

Yes jailor and mayor need to go, I dont want to repeat rhe transporter discusion cause last time no one changed their mind, altho we all agreed in that a nerf is needed

LO needs a priority list that puts TP in lower priority, the problem is that a priority list would make it easier to see who is the hidden framer in case they decide to claim TP and go on jailor


About the post, I agree with everything here, one of the most urgent things needed is the NE to avoid witch and exe being repeated every game
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Re: Why current ranked will always be flawed.

Postby Soulshade55r » Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:05 pm

Spoiler:
Benn3 wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:I wanna start this by saying I don't advocate for old ranked in any way shape or form as it's a very "unbalanced" mess.
But current ranked is pretty unfun and decided too quick a lot of the times.

The Role list being 9v6 Means the Mafia generally need to get one kill cause a miss lynch & then kill successfully the next night meaning that you will get Majority D3 a lot of the time meaning town has basically lost at that point unless they've got certain roles.

In the same way Jailors entire existence is so oppressive to the mafia that in general towns entire win depends on one person being competent and targeting the right players, It becomes less about finding a minority faction in a majority faction or gaining majority as a minority faction, it becomes more of who can use there night actions more effectively and target the right person, it ruins all social aspects of the game, as in general the first two days are just too strong and lead to no proper long lasting social games.

The only way I could ever see this possibly being fixed is moving towards a 5v10 with heavy town and jailor nerfs while majorly buffing mafia & adding tactical mafia for more Varity mafia role lists

In a 5v10
N1: 5V9, D2: 5V8, N2: 5V7, D3: 5V6, N3: 5V5
Meaning Town has some leniency towards lynching and with mafia having one kill everynight and town miss lynching twice it would take until d4 instead of d3 which means town has to mess up twice to be actually really punished.

5V10 currently WOULDN'T work because of how powerful some town roles are
Mainly: Jailor
but also: Mayor, Transporter, Lookout

Neutrals:
Roles like (Exe/Jester) have zero place in a ranked setting unless you advocate for Nbs and nks to be back in ranked.
Witch lacks Varity there needs to be more actual "ne's" who are against the town.

Executioner is essential for Ranked. Without them, it's much harder to defend yourself early on if you get outted. If there's no Executioner, if anybody gets accused, it's too easy to trust the accuser.

Problematic Mafia roles:
Take note that mafias kpn via ambusher can just be doubled because why not I'm sure that's fun and wacky? Ambusher shouldn't be a thing it doesn't really work, It should at least be rebalanced into what either way

Ambusher can be found out pretty easily due to how if more than one person visits their target, they'll see them ambush. They have to play pretty well to not get caught, although it's too easy to gain majority with them. I like playing the role, as it requires you to strategically select people that will only have one person visit, but I don't think they should KILL, they should do something else that requires them to still use the same ability.

Disguiser, Consig, Hypno, Framer Are all generally throwaway mafia roles nowadays

Consig is not a throw away. They can find important Town roles and NEs. I do think they deserve a buff though, such as being notified how many people exist in the alignment of the person you checked, which is already on the TG role-card.

Disguiser: has a pretty neat ability but the existence of spy screws it over

Even without Spy it usually fails to be useful enough. Most of the time you're just kind of a paper-weight. I think they should be reworked. Spy instantly outting that there's a Disguiser is a problem with Spy though.

Consig: is useless as you know anyone you check will be town apart from the NE's which in general the witch finds you early and the EXE is easy to tell for evils.

Read what I said earlier about Consig.

Hypno: sucks because spy exists

The main problem isn't Spy. The main problem is that its main ability just doesn't help the Mafia in any way. It's very rare where you can hypnotize somebody without them realizing that they were hypnotized. They only come in use if for example, their last Mafia(Killing) member is jailed. Then they can hypno the jailor into being attacked. But that's it, they serve no other purpose other than to give themselves a fake claim which can easily be torn apart.

Framer: Sucks because spy exists, and it's too slow to do anything 90% of the time.

The reason Framer exists is because it's just a garbage role. Investigators instantly realize somebody is framed due to you only being able to choose "Framer, Vampire, Jester" as a result, making it a counter to Sheriffs where usually they STILL don't come in use. They need to be able to counter ALL investigative roles. Spy just makes them even worse from the horrible role they already are.

GF & Mafioso would also need to be reworked or whatever if tactical mafia was a thing

Yeah, TMK would be so much better than the current system. Mafioso only exists so that if the GF gets RBD, they leave instead, and vice versa. They're just a duplicate of the GF. Adding TMK and removing Mafioso would make the system much better.

Town roles:
Spy: negates A lot of RM for the little price of sitting there doing nothing all game

Yeah the issue with Spy is that they fuck over a bunch of the Mafia roles without having to work for it. There's no strategical play in just sitting and seeing who the Mafia visits.

Lo: sits on jailor or mayor and gets easy infomation without having to think about whos going to be visited/attacked

That's an issue with the TP/LO meta. Lookout's main purpose is to confirm Townies for the most part, along with being able to out Mafia roles.

Sheriff: Kinda weirdly balanced with how many detection immunity roles exist, can find 3 mafia per game which one of those mafia can promote into a godfather making them unable to find, disguiser can hide mafia and framer can make people sussy bakas, so in general this role is really weak

Sheriff is not weak. It's just that they're much more balanced compared to other roles in the game. Although there are some roles that shouldn't have detection immunity, like the Witch. They're NE but I don't think they should be immune to Sheriffs.

Doctor & Bodyguard: they shouldn't be able to protect the same player in a row.

Definite no. Mafia could way too easily kill important players just by waiting out the TPs. There must be a different solution if you want to nerf them.

Jailor: literally so overpowered it breaks the game and creates metas

The main issue is that they are instantly confirmed, and their main ability is really powerful. The role itself is really fun to play but yeah, the game shouldn't be built around it. Removing jail armor and the super role block(unless they execute the person they jailed) is probably a good first step into nerfing them.

Mayor: weirdly balanced random PR role

I feel like people overexaggerate with how OP Mayor is. Compare them to Transporter and Escort, two roles that can single handedly save a game. Medium and Retributionist are more underpowered, but that's because they are more balanced. Mayor still a powerful role but it's not the BEST role in the game I'd say.

Escort: Super useless early game, super useful late game

True I guess, since usually you end up RBing Town members, and if you RB a GF/Mafioso, the other one will just leave instead.

Transporter: Honestly my main issue is self transports

Transports should be silent, and they should have only ONE self transport that's sort of like their "vest".

Vigilante & Veteran: have very strong carrying potential but also very easily can screw over the entire town into a easy loss.

These two roles are very fun to play. They're both balanced, it's just that in the hands of the wrong person, they can fuck over Town. Veteran takes a big part in the social aspect; you really have to try and be active to get evils to target you. Vigilante is based off scum-reading, although there's always the dumb people who use RNG to choose who they want to shoot. Some people just wait until there's a confirmed evil. Vigilante shouldn't die of guilt, they should just put their gun away. However in return they should only have 2 bullets.

In general the role list is a mess but I feel like im yelling at a wall right now because none of this will ever likely changed as there's a new game coming out honestly kinda sad to see the state of ranked.


I'll make this a spoiler so it's not massive the numbers correspond to your responses

1. It's very hard to say if it's socially good to have a role that creates doubt in scum reading, I can see it does give mafia something if they're found d2? but in general mafia can also make trades like that pretty easily if they need a early lynch or to cause confusion. In general I don't think we should be depending on a neutral role to make reading and checks doubted, because once that neutral has achieved their objective they become a Survivor basically and can mess up the balance for the game, also exe turns into jester which is really really bad for balance purposes. I'll never want neutral evil to spawn in ranked if the category is (Witch/Jester/Exe) because witch is always going to be sided with mafia while the other ne's are pretty neutral and jester is benign.

2. Consig is throwaway because important town roles are generally outed, like sometimes you find a mayor? or a doctor? but in general it's so situational and normally feeds spy infomation, consig is defiantly not great in ranked as it stands maybe not framer tier bad but it's pretty awful when you compare it to janitor or consort.

3. Disguiser being able to hide other mafia is genuinely pretty useful in situations, my main issue is spy but i can see it still being weak even if spy was reworked

4. Hypnos messages generally are scouted out by spies so making fake claims are hard while spy exists other then that hypno is kind of still bad just spy currently the way it works makes it really bad

5. Framer is alright? in certain situations without spies and LO actually somewhat useful? but it's really still bad to be fair, framers ability can cause misslynches and that player who checked the target executed but that's really rare in general spy needs to be reworked and framer needs to be buffed

6. yes but not removing any roles is what BMG does I don't think it's good to remove roles even if they get reworked into something new.

7. Spy currently takes no actual skill to play and is too powerful.

8. Ne's (like witch) need detection immunity because of having to survive, it's already hard enough being witch

9. Why not? It might actually promote Tp's being careful about who they protect I see nothing wrong with it, Spamming protection abilities on someone because of "importance" is not what Tp's should be, Tps should actually be playing the game and predicting who will be attacked ect.

10. I actually think serval Jailor nerfs, chain jailing, removing jail armour and not roleblocking if execution doesn't go through are all things that can be currently done.

11. Transporter is ridiculous, Mayor imo is very very powerful in a 6v9 meta and it spawming randomly along with transporter creates inbalance in the TS, escort in general is the best example of a not too powerful TS, I think retri is generally fine and medium sucks

12. im fine with transports not being silent as hypno exists and if spy was changed I don't think it's a problem, I don't think trans should even get any self transports

13. I'd disagree in very high risk/reward roles like vigilante/veteran being balanced personally epically vigi which shouldn't have guilt for killing a player and instead only not be able to shoot


In general some of your logic is alright everyone has different ideas on making the game more balanced, Personally I don't see why Tp's should have a playstyle that promotes spamming protection on one target and it would make the game way more better it creates more mind games with mafia as they can easily waste a night if a tps being smart I think it's important to make important players somewhat easier to kill because it's way too hard right now you generally have to kill all the tps to even get a chance at killing the jailor ect.
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
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