Major issues with game and proposed fixes

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Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby ak521 » Tue Jul 13, 2021 2:01 pm

1. Jailor is too powerful.
It's supposed to be. I actually enjoy having an all-powerful town member which can easily confirm and the role fits well into the game.
I propose the Jailor not being able to jail N1. In classic role lists, people will be less worried about jailing SK n1 (and SK will be less triggered if jailor calls tplo and is jailed N1) while it could allow for interesting fakeclaim jailor potential for evils if they really wish to take a high risk high reward gamble. Then it increases evil's KPN on the first night which is especially important in ranked, even though it will be a small amount, it often feels doomed if you hit the jailed target.
The above change will cause the "dont jail consecutive nights same person" nerf to be no longer needed.

Criticism to this change: Not enough.
My response: Again, jailor meant to be powerful. Just a very simple minor nerf.


2. Boring roles such as...
a. Mafioso and Godfather
I proposed TMK but I don't think it's a good idea after some thought.
I propose buffing both roles.
First, make Mafioso much more exciting. Allow Mafioso to choose an Astral Visit up to two nights, at the least.
Make Godfather slightly more exciting too. Possibly add roleblock immunity.

b. Medium
This role is really situational and can be extremely boring when town is ahead. There's already so many proposed changes to Medium so I'm not going to propose anything here besides looking at the Medium thread.
Town Support is supposed to be the more powerful roles, Medium is one of the weakest. There's clear need for a change.

c. Retributionist
Really boring when town is ahead, situational, and OP when town is behind.
I like the mechanic mentioned here for the most part and I propose we leave it the way it is.

d. Framer, Disguiser
Framer:
Make frames permanent. Just increases the chaos a tad bit more.
Disguiser:
Sorry I don't understand this role. Simplify it -- target maf, they will no longer appear sus and their visits will not be seen by spy.
Yes I actually do understand it fine but it's just so complicated that newbies will not understand it. I'll be referencing the above simplification --

So now combine the two roles and call it Framer.

e. Sheriff
Next to Medium on the most useless roles.
Just underpowered at this point but can be impactful. I suggest allowing Sheriff to check two targets a night.
They will either find both innocent or at least one suspicious. Those are the only two results this theoretical Sheriff would yield.

3. Unnecessary roles are overpowered.
a. Transporter
I'm fine with this role since it's supposed to be a powerful role. However I would suggest limited transports.
Last edited by ak521 on Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby Joacgroso » Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:29 pm

Jailor is too powerful.

Everyone can agree that jailor is OP, but I doubt removing N1 jails is enough of a nerf. Their main problem is their confirmability and that their night ability is so strong. I do like the idea of preventing double jailing, and also maybe weakening executions. And making it so jail doesn't prevent visits, so evils aren't outed when they claim to visit someone jailed. But removing n1 jailing? Being jailed as sk is terrible no matter when it happens, and the effects on KPN of n1 jails are pretty slight. Your point about your nerf allowing people to fakeclaim jailor day 2 is interesting, but the thing is that mafia can already do this by having one of their members claim jailed. tl;dr: I think jailor would still be OP with that nerf.
Boring roles such as mafioso.

I completely agree that being the mafioso sucks. Your suggestion is basically tactical mafia kills, which is pretty popular among the forums. I advise you to read this thread and post your opinion there.
Boring roles such as mediums and retributionists.

Medium is also troublesome because a lot of people leave after dying, and I personally don't find retri boring. The good thing about these roles is that they allow evils to claim a TS role, though I guess it's better if either all TS roles are very hard to claim or if none of them are. In any case, I do think mediums should be changed.
Boring roles such as framers and disguisers.

I don't think framer and disguiser are that boring since playing mafia is pretty similar regardless of your role (mafioso is worse because you have to pay for the GF's misplays), but I do think they should be changed. Making frames permanent is good, since hex masters shouldn't be better at framing people than framers when coven isn't even centered around deception. I don't think it would change much, though. The problem with framers is that they are completely useless against most TIs. Instead, they should be buffed so they can counter any TI. Something like making the framed person appear in evil psychic visions, making their visit seem like a mafia visit to the spy, hiding their visit from lookouts and making them seem like they visited the person mafia kills if they are tracked. If this was added, frames shouldn't be permanent for TIs like psychics.

I agree that disguiser is pretty complicated. I honestly don't think they should be able to make mafia members seem innocent, since sheriff are already pretty weak and negating them their scumreads is just unfair. Mafia deception should punish townies for making mistakes, not for making right reads (which makes me doubt a bit about framers affecting lookouts). I don't really have suggestions for disguisers.
Jailor meta is fading... maybe? (Ranked).

I don't think replacing the exe slot with a NE slot will solve anything. 2 witches would be too hard on town, an exe would give the same results as the current rolelist, and a jester is even more townsided. I don't really have much suggestions for this. I think ranked shouldn't have roles that can act as kingmakers, but I don't know what else to put on that slot.
Unnecessary roles are overpowered.

I believe transporters shouldn't be able to transport themselves. I don't know if removing notifications is that relevant now that hypnotists are a thing. Besides, this would make the role completely impossible to prove without a TI.

Bonus:
You know what other role is OP but no one ever brings it up? Vampire hunters. They are still able to read vampire chat, which makes DP unplayable for that faction since they can't make any plan at all. Not only that, but there's nothing vamps can do to fight against them, except hoping someone else takes care of the VH for them. Just removing their chat reading ability would do a lot.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby Ezradekezra » Tue Jul 13, 2021 5:34 pm

ak521 wrote:Framer:
Make frames permanent. Just increases the chaos a tad bit more.

Chaos ≠ Balance
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby Benn3 » Tue Jul 27, 2021 4:56 pm

ak521 wrote:1. Jailor is too powerful.
It's supposed to be. I actually enjoy having an all-powerful town member which can easily confirm and the role fits well into the game.
I propose the Jailor not being able to jail N1. In classic role lists, people will be less worried about jailing SK n1 (and SK will be less triggered if jailor calls tplo and is jailed N1) while it could allow for interesting fakeclaim jailor potential for evils if they really wish to take a high risk high reward gamble. Then it increases evil's KPN on the first night which is especially important in ranked, even though it will be a small amount, it often feels doomed if you hit the jailed target.
The above change will cause the "dont jail consecutive nights same person" nerf to be no longer needed.|

That wouldn't be too much of a nerf though IMO. If Jail Armor and the super role block were removed it'd make Jailor more balanced.

2. Boring roles such as...
a. Mafioso
Ok this role is seriously not ok when Godfather is alive. I feel like AFKing every time I roll this and I know I'm not alone.
I suggest removing both roles altogether, and instead having mafia members vote to attack someone. This would be in the first column, for example.
Every night someone will get the Killing job and will not preform their nightly ability. In return, they get detection immunity (inno to sheriffs) In the case of a tiebreaker, their voted target is the player who they will attack.

I 100% agree, however this is just TMK which has been suggested a LOT. Godfather should stay as a static Mafia(Head) role as I think it'd be too OP having 4 RMs.

b. Medium
This role is really situational and can be extremely boring when town is ahead. There's already so many proposed changes to Medium so I'm not going to propose anything here besides looking at the Medium thread.
Town Support is supposed to be the more powerful roles, Medium is one of the weakest. There's clear need for a change.

You didn't elaborate much on this but I agree. I think they should be able to select a dead player(if they left the game) each night to "ask" them about something, that being their role(if they were possibly forged/stoned/cleaned), what results they received that night, and who they visited that night, as an addition to talking to the dead players at night as usual, so that if a player leaves the game, the Medium can still get info out of them.

c. Retributionist
Really boring when town is ahead, situational, and OP when town is behind.
I like the mechanic mentioned here for the most part and I propose we leave it the way it is.

I agree, but wdym by "I like the mechanic mentioned here"?

d. Framer, Disguiser

Framer:
Make frames permanent. Just increases the chaos a tad bit more.

I don't think they should be permanent, but they should be able to select the invest result AND affect EVERY investigative role. This isn't enough of a buff.

Disguiser:
Sorry I don't understand this role. Simplify it -- target maf, they will no longer appear sus and their visits will not be seen by spy.
Yes I actually do understand it fine but it's just so complicated that newbies will not understand it. I'll be referencing the above simplification --

It really isn't that complicated, if somebody can't understand how it works just by playing the game they can simply look at the wiki. Making it this way makes the role even more boring.

So now combine the two roles and call it Framer.

I definitely agree with this; give Framer the ability to affect Lookouts and Trackers by choosing to frame their target as a Mafia member, making it look like they visited in place of the actual Mafia member. They should also affect Psychic.

3. Jailor meta is fading.. maybe? (Ranked)
Witches are great but what I am concerned about is the Exe. So Exe meta is now to side with town if mafia dies N1 or doesn't get a kill N1. This hurts maf chances even more and exe should be given no leniency. Swap this slot with NE (so it would be NE and witch).

I disagree. Having a Witch and an NE provides the possibility of having two Witches, which is way too chaotic and unbalanced. Replace Witch and Exe with NE and NK(which is what the old list was) or even NB.

4. Unnecessary roles are overpowered.
a. Transporter
Remove the transported notification. It's too easy for a trans to confirm themselves.
That's it.

100% agree with this; Transporter is confirmed way too easily atm.

more coming.
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby SilverCruz » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:57 pm

1 - The core problem with Jailor in my eyes is its power to deadlock. I say deal with this by stripping its roleblock if it doesn't execute entirely, which makes it incapable of holding up the Mafia for free once the Godioso drops. Also remove Jail Armor so it's not just a Doctor but better, for that matter. It really shouldn't be a straight upgrade of other roles. Town Protective is also generally kind of overpowered, sooo... ya'know.

2 - Mafioso should just be removed. Flat out. At least shoved into a "Classic Mafia" corner where it only exists if a Classic Mafia custom flag is set in a Custom mode, with the non-Classic Mafia letting anyone declare and execute the attack, though still one attack per night (the earliest attack declared and not interrupted is the one that is executed, and one may not declare both an attack and their role's night action in the same night). Godfather and Mafioso both need to go, keeping them around for legacy's sake is harmful to the game.

3 - My Medium pitch is the same as it ever was. Nix the dead chat interactions completely and make it scrape auto-generated Last Wills off of co-aligned players instead, including the results of the night they got whacked. This allows players who get knocked out to leave with a completely guilt free conscience since there is now no tether to the game for them, and it also makes Medium not a completely broken role that can hard confirm itself by spam-pasting the entire dead chat.

4 - Framer should be able to choose the Investigative bracket it frames the target as. Maybe compound it into Consigliere for that matter so if it finds a Witch or Jester it can capitalize on that, and also still has something to do when there's nobody to walk over its Frames. I dunno.

5 - Disguiser just needs all of its visits to be completely invisible to Spies at a baseline so that it can't self-destruct.

6 - The problem with Exejester and Witch is that they are roles with vastly different goals lumped into the same bucket, but you can't take Witch out of Neutral Evil because it doesn't fit anywhere else, and while I believe that tossing Neutral Benign and Neutral Evil for Neutral Individual and Neutral Reliant is a good idea in theory, that'd still leave Witch as the only Neutral Reliant which would be bad. Ranked also just needs to be willing to use Ranked Brackets to fit a niche, such as having "Neutral Evil R" which contains only Executioner and Jester and replaces the static Executioner.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby ak521 » Fri Jul 30, 2021 8:22 pm

Made some updates. see original post
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Re: Major issues with game and proposed fixes

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Jul 30, 2021 9:26 pm

It'd be nice if you told us what you changed instead of making us read the post again. I doubt RB immunity and astral visits will make mafioso and GF more exciting. The bad thing about the mafioso is that he can't do anything by himself, and he's just there to be punished instead of the GF if he picks the wrong kill. And negating the effect of a town role just for the sake of it seems cheap. That's why I also don't like how disguisers can prevent sheriffs from getting actual results.

I agree that sheriffs are UP, but I think that might be fixed by reducing detection immunity or something. Though double visits sound interesting too.

Also, you claim that TS roles are supposed to be powerful, but the devs never claimed that. Some TS roles just so happen to be more powerful than others. That's not an excuse to keep them OP. Though I agree that they should all have the similar power. The main problem with transporters is that they can't be killed at night if they find a mafia member. They shouldn't be able to self transport.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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