A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

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A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Thu Jun 03, 2021 8:53 pm

This is the video in question, pointed at the relevant segment.

Just puttin' that out there. Maybe it'll stick if it's coming out of the mouth of someone bigger than me.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Jun 03, 2021 10:43 pm

As usual.... sid alpha (whoever the f*ck that is) has no financial interest in BMG whatsoever, so advice he has to give doesnt take any situations that BMG have going on, into account. If any business takes random advice from some random on the internet, and applies situational advice, when they arent in those situations, they are going to be doomed fast.

Get over it Cruz...devs are gonna follow their own business plan, no matter how many memes you post, no matter how many comments you make, how many threads you post.....no matter how many snippets of TED talks you choose to edit...why dont you get a snippet of Bill Gates making a comment and use that as a ''Im right and BMG is wrong'' piece of evidence? although that wont make em panic and scrap their business model and make a new one overnight either......
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Superalex11 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 7:57 am

kyuss420 wrote:As usual.... sid alpha (whoever the f*ck that is) has no financial interest in BMG whatsoever, so advice he has to give doesnt take any situations that BMG have going on, into account. If any business takes random advice from some random on the internet, and applies situational advice, when they arent in those situations, they are going to be doomed fast.

Get over it Cruz...devs are gonna follow their own business plan, no matter how many memes you post, no matter how many comments you make, how many threads you post.....no matter how many snippets of TED talks you choose to edit...why dont you get a snippet of Bill Gates making a comment and use that as a ''Im right and BMG is wrong'' piece of evidence? although that wont make em panic and scrap their business model and make a new one overnight either......

0/10 response, try again. Nothing in the quoted portion of the video is random. Communication isn't hard, and communication is just about always a benefit to all parties.

I've been sticking around other communities lately, and it's communicative posts like these (https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRunet ... he_future/) from other developers/companies that just shine so brightly in comparison to this hellscape called ToS. No amount of "business decisions" will ever warrant the level of communication BMG puts out, and when I and other people of other communities see posts like the one I've linked, it's only ever a good thing for those communities.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby mdntranger » Fri Jun 04, 2021 8:16 am

Here's my question....

If you're so dissatisfied with the service or updates, why do you stay? There are many other applications out there that may be more suited to what you are looking for.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:44 am

I agree that communication is important and that transparent devs are more likable, but kyuss is also right when he says that the devs aren't going to change their minds because of what one or two users say. And regardless of wheter your arguments are right or wrong, presenting them in a more hostile way predisposes people to ignore you/disagree with you.

It's nice to see someone caring about the game so much and wanting to improve it, but I honestly think this is a lost battle. Silver should invest his passion into something that may actually pay off. The best we can do is give the devs time and hope they return to ToS some day. After working for 7 years in a project, they have the right to try something new.

But yeah, I agree that monthly updates on the development of ToS/TiS would be awesome, even if there's nothing to report. It's a good way of showing you care.
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I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Jun 04, 2021 4:49 pm

mdntranger wrote:Here's my question....

If you're so dissatisfied with the service or updates, why do you stay? There are many other applications out there that may be more suited to what you are looking for.


Because for as much as I rag on this game, it has potential. The Jailor is overpowered. This could be fixed. The Medium is broken and reliant on people doing something they don't tend to want to do. This could be fixed (and indeed, the Retributionist used to have the same reliance on knocked out players staying, and it was changed). The Framer is virtually worthless. This could be fixed. The Disguiser is a Spy hard counter that is hard countered by Spies. This could be fixed. Ads For Play lets people evade bans and play for free trivially. This could be fixed. The current Un/ranked role list is stale because of having no Neutral Killing and static Neutral Evils, and Town Traitor likewise lacks a Neutral Killing or generic Neutral Evil. This could be fixed.

The core that this game has isn't fundamentally flawed. Mafia as a whole wouldn't be a popular game if there were nothing of value in it. It's just lacking in staff, and the staff it does have has only, so far as I've noticed, supplied very short, curt answers to a very thin amount of regards. Saying "We have not ceased work on ToS." (verbatim quote from shapesifter13) is something, but it's something that holds little value or reassurance because of how little information is around it. What work is ongoing? We're not omniscient, we can't see backend updates that we've only heard about second-hand from a forum moderator, we don't know if the title screen change is supposed to insinuate something upcoming that doesn't just have to do with that new game. Being left out of the loop bites.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:28 pm

Superalex11 wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:As usual.... sid alpha (whoever the f*ck that is) has no financial interest in BMG whatsoever, so advice he has to give doesnt take any situations that BMG have going on, into account. If any business takes random advice from some random on the internet, and applies situational advice, when they arent in those situations, they are going to be doomed fast.

Get over it Cruz...devs are gonna follow their own business plan, no matter how many memes you post, no matter how many comments you make, how many threads you post.....no matter how many snippets of TED talks you choose to edit...why dont you get a snippet of Bill Gates making a comment and use that as a ''Im right and BMG is wrong'' piece of evidence? although that wont make em panic and scrap their business model and make a new one overnight either......

0/10 response, try again. Nothing in the quoted portion of the video is random. Communication isn't hard, and communication is just about always a benefit to all parties.

I've been sticking around other communities lately, and it's communicative posts like these (https://www.reddit.com/r/LegendsOfRunet ... he_future/) from other developers/companies that just shine so brightly in comparison to this hellscape called ToS. No amount of "business decisions" will ever warrant the level of communication BMG puts out, and when I and other people of other communities see posts like the one I've linked, it's only ever a good thing for those communities.


meh as if i even wasted time watching the video (much like the devs) These other companies also work on more than 1 game, and have staff especially for ''communication'' purposes, all rolled into thier collective advertising budgets. As ''transparent'' as they might seem, theyre just there to tell the customers what they want to hear, and to make them feel heard so theyll spend more money and time on their platform....all part of the business model. So while theres a level of communication, 80% of it is likely bs and sweet talk.

Also youre comparing ToS to a pay2win game that has multiple whales spending $1000+ a month.....of course they hire butt kissers....
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Jun 04, 2021 5:33 pm

Okay, so taking your figures at face value even though you have no evidence toward their factual accuracy, explain to me how 80% bull and 20% truth is worse than 100% neglect?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Jun 04, 2021 6:23 pm

I don't know why "telling the customers what they want to hear so they are more likely to spend money in the game" is a bad thing. It's not like they are outright lying.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Superalex11 » Fri Jun 04, 2021 9:18 pm

kyuss420 wrote:meh as if i even wasted time watching the video (much like the devs) These other companies also work on more than 1 game, and have staff especially for ''communication'' purposes, all rolled into thier collective advertising budgets. As ''transparent'' as they might seem, theyre just there to tell the customers what they want to hear, and to make them feel heard so theyll spend more money and time on their platform....all part of the business model. So while theres a level of communication, 80% of it is likely bs and sweet talk.

Also youre comparing ToS to a pay2win game that has multiple whales spending $1000+ a month.....of course they hire butt kissers....

1/10 response. Barely better, still garbage. Try again.

First, if you're honest about not watching a 72 second clip, I don't know why you think anyone in this thread should take your responses seriously. All of us in this thread may be relatively "random" people in terms of the broader discussion, but a credential as minimal as knowing the context of the specific conversation already puts us ahead. Stop acting like you're above us while you kiss BMG's ass and you don't know what you're talking about.

Second, and maybe it's not clear to an outsider, but as a regular of LoR the remainder of your comment is strictly incorrect. In terms of the point of communication, the two games are easily comparable (maybe you'd think that's why I picked it as an example). The guy who posted that reddit thread isn't just some communication staffer, he's a senior producer specifically for gameplay in just that game. It isn't his job to simply make the public happy like some PR birdie, it's his job to make that game fun. Now again, I could excuse this for someone who just doesn't know much about the game or the company, but you're running in here like you know shit trying to talk people down from their legitimate criticisms of what could be a good company, so I think it's more likely you just assumed all you wrote about my example just to make it/me look bad.

The end point is that a valuable and important trait of successful game companies is communication with their audience. No, it's not an outright necessity; but to that extent nothing is, not even gameplay (see: 99% of mobile games). So if BMG wants to be better, an easy place to start would be communication.

P.S. @kyuss No, LoR is not p2w, but that's besides the point of communication so I'll not go further on that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 2:51 am

oooo a senior producer ay? That means theres junior producers doing the work while he has time to browse reddit.... Must be good to work for a multi staffed company that produces multiple games, with a money spinning income with every update.... wonder how long that company will last with its anti P2W policy? lmao

Even so, posting videos in the forums feedback section isnt going to do shit to get your point across..... you wanted a non P2W game....you get the bonus of a company with no time/money/resources to waste on things like ''communication''

I mean, I could also post this clip https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/- ... -Whales-An and tell BMG ''this is what you should be doing!!!!''
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:05 am

Posting a 1:14 long clip and a 57:09 clip are pretty different things, though. That one really isn't going to be watched.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:52 pm

kyuss420 wrote:oooo a senior producer ay? That means theres junior producers doing the work while he has time to browse reddit.... Must be good to work for a multi staffed company that produces multiple games, with a money spinning income with every update.... wonder how long that company will last with its anti P2W policy? lmao

Even so, posting videos in the forums feedback section isnt going to do shit to get your point across..... you wanted a non P2W game....you get the bonus of a company with no time/money/resources to waste on things like ''communication''

I mean, I could also post this clip https://www.gdcvault.com/play/1016417/- ... -Whales-An and tell BMG ''this is what you should be doing!!!!''


So by just flat out saying that BMG has no time, money, or resources to spend on communication, you're saying that they're bad at business? I thought anyone could be a bootlicker, but apparently there are qualifications.

You're also trying really, really hard to slag off a game that you've never played or probably even heard of before it came up in this topic. I mean, I've never played or heard of it before this topic either, so you know what I'm doing? Not speaking in absolutes about it.

Nevermind that it's not even possible to get a "pay to win" vibe out of this game without fundamentally breaking it. What's BMG to do, sell consumables that prevent you from dying? One that instantly kills the Jailor if you're Neutral or a member of the Mafia on top of roleblocking them the night it activates, perhaps, and instead roleblocks and kills the Godfather or Mafioso if there is no Godfather if you're part of the Town? You're not usin' your brain. The problem is that what I assume to be their main source of revenue is also what's very directly screwing the game up by allowing bad actors to stroll in, screw up rounds for free with no chance of repercussion for ten rounds, get banned, then make a new account and do it all over again. I'd say that if they want to keep their Ad Bucks without wrecking the game, they need to throw Ads For Plays into the garbage and replace it with Ads For Coven Tickets or Ads For Scrolls, and do something to comp the legitimate players who rely on Ads For Plays to stay in, like just turning any account that has played a round (maybe require up to fifteen or so so that they're out of the grace period) into a Grandson account or run a general limited free-to-keep distribution for the game at least on Steam since it's already equipped to do that.

But honestly, I'm already giving you too much attention, so I'm gonna stop this post now.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:41 pm

my point was you probably should of stopped this post before you wrote it. Posting a clip or a video of how other business's run their shit isnt going to change BMGs mind about anything. And just cos some noobtuber that youre a fan of, said something, that you cut into a snippet (which could be taken out of context for all we know- if you know anything about how media works) to support whatever notion has put a wasp up your skirt this week, really doesnt mean shit. As anyone could post any video to support their complaints (which is why i posted the chinese business model)

Your problem with BMG isnt going to be ''solved'' by crying at them on the forums about how YOU think they should be running things. Let it go dude.... some things are just out of your control, and things in the real world dont change because of the amount of support or likes on a post on the internet.

You dont like what BMG are doing? Gratz, theres nothing you can do about it. You dont like them not reading the forums? Great....theres nothing you can do about it.

So what do you want? A bunch of people to complain about them? They not doing what you like, so you want to drive their playerbase away? They are so evil you feel you must warn the playerbase about them?

I just dont understand what youre trying to achieve by coming here every week and telling them how to run their business.... pure Karen behaviour, why dont you email their manager?
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:50 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Posting a 1:14 long clip and a 57:09 clip are pretty different things, though. That one really isn't going to be watched.


well at least a full clip isnt edited to only support 1 side of the story. If you take snippets of conversations to mean anything, you are clearly going to misunderstand the context of the conversation... I mean the media have been doing it for years to sensationalise boring stories.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:17 pm

You apply a high amount of stress to my ability to remain polite in the face of the utter drivel and outright lies that you keep spewing.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:51 pm

I don't think kyuss should be claiming the video is edited or out of context while simultaneosly admitting he didn't even watch it. The "clip" Silver posted is actually a timestamp from a video, so it's easy to see the whole thing without needing further context.

However, kyuss wasn't completely wrong about the video being out of context, since the "communication" clip Silver posted was actually aimed at (indie) games in early access, not at completed games. If we ignore that fact, the video is still aimed at indie developers making their first game, but ToS is far from early access. The person who made the video is also a game critic, not a game developer. All of this is said in the first 75 seconds of the video.

I kinda feel pity for Silver who puts so much passion into an impossible task. He could be doing something more productive with his time. I don't think we can say he "can't" do that, since that's basically the point of the forums. Otherwise, there wouldn't be "suggestions" or "feedback" subforums. But the devs aren't going to change their minds because of what one person says (even if he quotes a person I don't even know if anyone here knows), and even if all the active forumers that still talk about game agreed with him, we wouldn't amount to more than 10 people. So it's very unlikely the devs will feel inclined to follow us.

But regardless of wheter the task is possible or not, I do think Silver is pressing the devs a bit too much. I feel like a couple threads were enough, but making so many threads about similar topics+directly contacting the devs+making a thread demanding an answer after they ignore him is an overkill. This will just annoy them and make them less likely to listen to the community in general. Regardless of wheter they are good or bad devs, it's better if the community is polite towards them. Silver may not intend it, but some of his threads and titles seem hostile. Of course the devs will be discouraged from reading them.

tl;dr: The clip Silver posted is aimed at games in early access, not completed games. Trying to improve the game is nice, but we have to accept that forumers don't have so much power, especially since we are very few. Nothing good will come out of pressing the devs further.
Last edited by Joacgroso on Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Jun 06, 2021 1:12 am

Well, I think of it this way. Town of Salem may not be Early Access, but it is also not a completed game. That's not intended as a slam against it, it's just an online game that is never really finished because as long as it is supported there is room for changes, additions, and subtractions. Roles like Vampire, Hypnotist, and Ambusher were not stock at the game's launch, the original Retributionist and two previous forms of the Disguiser were effectively completely distinct roles from what we understand to be a modern Retributionist and Disguiser, to the point it's more apt to say that those roles were removed and replaced with new roles bearing the same names rather than being modified. Early Access or no, with a game like this there is an expectation of attendance from its creators, this isn't an N64 game where the developer's role in the transaction is done and dusted when it's shipped.

Other than that, I'd say I "can't" in direct relation to this game because any adjustments to the game have to go through its management, who by all means appear to refuse to have a back-and-forth conversation about the game. Unrelated to the game, golly I'd sure like to, but everything I'm competent at bores me and everything I'm interested in that I'm not competent at confounds me. What a dilemma.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: A portion of a SidAlpha video BMG should listen to.

Postby Joacgroso » Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:29 am

I guess it's possible to generalize that the communication clip was aimed at games that change over time, but since I'm not a dev, a critic or anything I can't confirm that paralelism to be true.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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