kyuss420 wrote:so? medium claims day 1 instead, the LO still confirms themself and the TPs, it doesnt stop the ''jailor'' meta at all, because its a LO meta, that greatly increases the process of elimination of suspected evils.
Evils then bumble around, randomly hitting people at night in hopes they get lucky and hit the jailor - using no strategy but the hit and hope method, making playing as evil a luck fest, when jailor is going to claim by day3 at the latest anyway (unless TPs are dead).
And boo hoo that the witch has to have a brain to break a jail deadlock. Also the execution is a night ability, and jailor had to click on their suspect to execute them on the flash version, meaning jailor had to target their suspect at night to execute (its not the day ability) - hence why escort/consort stops the execute, and trans cant stop the execute and why controlling jailor to their suspect makes them use an execute. If jailor had to target themselves to execute, a RB wouldnt do anything because theyre already at home.
dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.
Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.
kyuss420 wrote:dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.
Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.
Being reported and being found guilty are 2 enitirely separate things..... anyone can be reported for anything, doesnt mean they will be guiltied for it. Fuck, ive seen people reported for lying...
Kinda contradicting the statements you made on the blacklisting players thread here......
in that situation you have the choice of 2 options - 1) break the rules because you put yourself in a situation where you were consistently RBed - either by bad claim/will, didnt claim early or cc a townie also claiming your fake claim, let town get too confirmed before making your fake claim, targeted something suboptimal instead of the escort.. etc etc - in which case you played badly and deserve what u get
or 2) not break the rules, finish the game and try something different next time round.
kyuss420 wrote:dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.
Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.
Being reported and being found guilty are 2 enitirely separate things..... anyone can be reported for anything, doesnt mean they will be guiltied for it. Fuck, ive seen people reported for lying...
Kinda contradicting the statements you made on the blacklisting players thread here......
in that situation you have the choice of 2 options - 1) break the rules because you put yourself in a situation where you were consistently RBed - either by bad claim/will, didnt claim early or cc a townie also claiming your fake claim, let town get too confirmed before making your fake claim, targeted something suboptimal instead of the escort.. etc etc - in which case you played badly and deserve what u get
or 2) not break the rules, finish the game and try something different next time round.
dbpeanut wrote:This comment highlights your two biggest flaws. The assumption that mafia has to be bad to lose/placed in this situation, not that town has to be good. And your objective lack of experience. I've played against you when I was town, I did this exact crap to you. You know what you did? You kept pleading with me before I executed you because we had found your framer by that point.
Don't act like the meta isn't the meta for a reason.
This meta has existed for years without any change because there's not a single realistic counter.
Of course you wouldn't know though.
SilverCruz wrote:Okay, ya know what, let's take you at face value for a second. All deadlocks are caused by the Mafia screwing up, and they never happen because the Jailor jailed someone arbitrarily and just happened to get the Mafioso only for the Godfather to quit the same night without targeting anyone first, and we'll pretend for a second that you're not very directly advocating gamethrowing because you're going way, way too heavily into rules-as-written.
Why is it healthy for this game to have one faction capable of instantly losing because of one error off the back of one role being overpowered and another role being garbage at everything except deadlocking, while the other main faction can't end up in the same situation due to being fundamentally different?
kyuss420 wrote:dbpeanut wrote:This comment highlights your two biggest flaws. The assumption that mafia has to be bad to lose/placed in this situation, not that town has to be good. And your objective lack of experience. I've played against you when I was town, I did this exact crap to you. You know what you did? You kept pleading with me before I executed you because we had found your framer by that point.
Don't act like the meta isn't the meta for a reason.
This meta has existed for years without any change because there's not a single realistic counter.
Of course you wouldn't know though.
Would love to have known that game, as Idgaf when Im deadlocked.... a loss or a win means nothing to me, as you sure cant win em all..... take the loss and move on, dont cry cos town spawned an escort as TS or you ran out of time to kill the jailor.... I mean, I scroll for coven roles in VIP, Im used to dealing with leavers and people who dont know what theyre doing and losing the game by 1 night. You here to play? or are you only here to win?SilverCruz wrote:Okay, ya know what, let's take you at face value for a second. All deadlocks are caused by the Mafia screwing up, and they never happen because the Jailor jailed someone arbitrarily and just happened to get the Mafioso only for the Godfather to quit the same night without targeting anyone first, and we'll pretend for a second that you're not very directly advocating gamethrowing because you're going way, way too heavily into rules-as-written.
Why is it healthy for this game to have one faction capable of instantly losing because of one error off the back of one role being overpowered and another role being garbage at everything except deadlocking, while the other main faction can't end up in the same situation due to being fundamentally different?
so your first example involves someone leaving (sorry, gamethrowing) causing their faction to lose.....contradicting yourself hard there.... If someone gamethrows, then the entire maf should just leave game? or just the jailed GF leaving them with a 2v whatever scenario?
and b) the ''overpowered'' role is part of an uninformed minority, so unless town has played well. or mafia has played bad or they got lucky at random (which doesnt improve win rates statistically) its not that big of a deal.....unless you got unlucky by playing badly, then being against a town that played well, then an escort/jailor got lucky, who knows....
like i always said... evil faction makes a mistake, they lose. Town makes mistakes, they have ways to comeback. It takes much more skill to win as evil as it does to win as town.....theres a few threads on these forums with people complaining how, if town mislynch day 2, theyve pretty much lost because witch will deadlock votes and stop jailor from executing...so it works both ways in some scenarios
kyuss420 wrote:so your first example involves someone leaving (sorry, gamethrowing) causing their faction to lose.....contradicting yourself hard there.... If someone gamethrows, then the entire maf should just leave game? or just the jailed GF leaving them with a 2v whatever scenario?
and b) the ''overpowered'' role is part of an uninformed minority, so unless town has played well. or mafia has played bad or they got lucky at random (which doesnt improve win rates statistically) its not that big of a deal.....unless you got unlucky by playing badly, then being against a town that played well, then an escort/jailor got lucky, who knows....
like i always said... evil faction makes a mistake, they lose. Town makes mistakes, they have ways to comeback. It takes much more skill to win as evil as it does to win as town.....theres a few threads on these forums with people complaining how, if town mislynch day 2, theyve pretty much lost because witch will deadlock votes and stop jailor from executing...so it works both ways in some scenarios
kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....
So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.
Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.
Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.
So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.
kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....
So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.
Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.
Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.
So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.
SilverCruz wrote:kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....
So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.
Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.
Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.
So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.
I don't have Coven and I don't want Coven because I'm not inclined to financially support a game that I find to be fundamentally broken, and even if it's less of a problem in Coven that doesn't excuse the situation outside of Coven. Please prefix your next response with "The town being able to deadlock the Mafia is healthy for the game because" and answer the question you've been given, or as it was said, admit that you cannot if that is the case.
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