I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Put any feedback about the game here.

Is the mythical "leaver buster" even a good idea?

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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby Dragnier » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:04 pm

The blacklist idea isn't bad, but I would implement it in a different way.

A player can only be added to the blacklist during the post game screen. By doing so, the player username will be displayed in another color in lobbies and on the endgame screen. There won't be any mark at all that shows which players are on your blacklist during the game. At the same time, a BL player won't know he is blacklisted by another player.

Now for lobbies:
1 - You can select in the game options to don't be placed on a lobby that already contains one of your blacklisted players on it (the game will add you to a different lobby, or create a new one if there isn't any). This comes with a warning that it may increase your waiting times.
2 - A Player in your blacklist can't join a lobby that you have created (or where you are the first player that joins). If this blacklisted player is on a party, the other party members can't join neither.
3 - If you are not the first player on the queue, any player can join to it - even your blacklisted players - and you will be able to see them because their username will be on a different color. You have the option of remaining in same lobby (ignoring the BL player) or leave to join a different one. Because of option #1, if you join a new lobby you won't be placed on the same lobby where your BL player is.

As mentioned, I also imagine this could try to be abused by players that don't want to be matched against high elo players. Still it could be a good option to improve your gaming experience over time, at a expense of higher waiting times, or also a good way to avoid players that are very skilled at ruining games without breaking rules.

Hope this idea can be discussed more, or that someone creates an independent suggestion post for it if needed.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:24 pm

kyuss420 wrote:so? medium claims day 1 instead, the LO still confirms themself and the TPs, it doesnt stop the ''jailor'' meta at all, because its a LO meta, that greatly increases the process of elimination of suspected evils.

Evils then bumble around, randomly hitting people at night in hopes they get lucky and hit the jailor - using no strategy but the hit and hope method, making playing as evil a luck fest, when jailor is going to claim by day3 at the latest anyway (unless TPs are dead).

And boo hoo that the witch has to have a brain to break a jail deadlock. Also the execution is a night ability, and jailor had to click on their suspect to execute them on the flash version, meaning jailor had to target their suspect at night to execute (its not the day ability) - hence why escort/consort stops the execute, and trans cant stop the execute and why controlling jailor to their suspect makes them use an execute. If jailor had to target themselves to execute, a RB wouldnt do anything because theyre already at home.


Mediums can't roleblock and kill whoever they want with no meaningful consequences.

And that last part is just worthless babble because of two things. One, there is a faster and more reliable way to break a deadlock. It's called quitting because between quitting and not quitting, it's actually closer to gamethrowing if you don't quit because you are capable of stopping this, but you choose not to. Two, deadlocks shouldn't be possible in the first place, the Witch thing is about making the Jailor only slightly superior to Vigilante in every way instead of massively superior to Vigilante in every way.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Sat Apr 10, 2021 1:56 pm

I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.

Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:53 pm

dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.

Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.


Being reported and being found guilty are 2 enitirely separate things..... anyone can be reported for anything, doesnt mean they will be guiltied for it. Fuck, ive seen people reported for lying...
Kinda contradicting the statements you made on the blacklisting players thread here......


in that situation you have the choice of 2 options - 1) break the rules because you put yourself in a situation where you were consistently RBed - either by bad claim/will, didnt claim early or cc a townie also claiming your fake claim, let town get too confirmed before making your fake claim, targeted something suboptimal instead of the escort.. etc etc - in which case you played badly and deserve what u get
or 2) not break the rules, finish the game and try something different next time round.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Sat Apr 10, 2021 5:59 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.

Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.


Being reported and being found guilty are 2 enitirely separate things..... anyone can be reported for anything, doesnt mean they will be guiltied for it. Fuck, ive seen people reported for lying...
Kinda contradicting the statements you made on the blacklisting players thread here......


in that situation you have the choice of 2 options - 1) break the rules because you put yourself in a situation where you were consistently RBed - either by bad claim/will, didnt claim early or cc a townie also claiming your fake claim, let town get too confirmed before making your fake claim, targeted something suboptimal instead of the escort.. etc etc - in which case you played badly and deserve what u get
or 2) not break the rules, finish the game and try something different next time round.

This comment highlights your two biggest flaws. The assumption that mafia has to be bad to lose/placed in this situation, not that town has to be good. And your objective lack of experience. I've played against you when I was town, I did this exact crap to you. You know what you did? You kept pleading with me before I executed you because we had found your framer by that point.
Don't act like the meta isn't the meta for a reason.
This meta has existed for years without any change because there's not a single realistic counter.
Of course you wouldn't know though.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Sat Apr 10, 2021 6:03 pm

For anybody who actually cares, metas only exist because it's either the most effective or most "fun" way to play.
If a meta has existed for multiple updates, it's usually the most effective and hasn't been addressed.
And if the meta has existed for 5-6 years, it usually means it's quite literally uncounterable in most circumstances- including this one.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby SilverCruz » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:31 pm

kyuss420 wrote:
dbpeanut wrote:I'm pretty sure the only reason Escort and Jailor can deadlock is for like All Any or something. Otherwise, it's very consistently uncounterable.

Also, objectively, if you're in a situation where you only have one of two options, and one option could actually help your team and the other option hurts your team, that's gamethrowing if you don't do the good option.
Though people will argue and say otherwise, I've seen people get reported for gamethrowing for not being on a confirmed town, and if that's enough, then so is not leaving when you're being repeatedly jailed as the only MK or CK.


Being reported and being found guilty are 2 enitirely separate things..... anyone can be reported for anything, doesnt mean they will be guiltied for it. Fuck, ive seen people reported for lying...
Kinda contradicting the statements you made on the blacklisting players thread here......


in that situation you have the choice of 2 options - 1) break the rules because you put yourself in a situation where you were consistently RBed - either by bad claim/will, didnt claim early or cc a townie also claiming your fake claim, let town get too confirmed before making your fake claim, targeted something suboptimal instead of the escort.. etc etc - in which case you played badly and deserve what u get
or 2) not break the rules, finish the game and try something different next time round.


Okay, ya know what, let's take you at face value for a second. All deadlocks are caused by the Mafia screwing up, and they never happen because the Jailor jailed someone arbitrarily and just happened to get the Mafioso only for the Godfather to quit the same night without targeting anyone first, and we'll pretend for a second that you're not very directly advocating gamethrowing because you're going way, way too heavily into rules-as-written.

Why is it healthy for this game to have one faction capable of instantly losing because of one error off the back of one role being overpowered and another role being garbage at everything except deadlocking, while the other main faction can't end up in the same situation due to being fundamentally different?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:11 am

dbpeanut wrote:This comment highlights your two biggest flaws. The assumption that mafia has to be bad to lose/placed in this situation, not that town has to be good. And your objective lack of experience. I've played against you when I was town, I did this exact crap to you. You know what you did? You kept pleading with me before I executed you because we had found your framer by that point.
Don't act like the meta isn't the meta for a reason.
This meta has existed for years without any change because there's not a single realistic counter.
Of course you wouldn't know though.


Would love to have known that game, as Idgaf when Im deadlocked.... a loss or a win means nothing to me, as you sure cant win em all..... take the loss and move on, dont cry cos town spawned an escort as TS or you ran out of time to kill the jailor....Ive never pleaded with a jailor in my life, that would be confirming yourself as evil and a hard gamethrow.... even if Im town, i just tell him hes dumb, he will lose his exes so gg. I mean, I scroll for coven roles in VIP, Im used to dealing with leavers and people who dont know what theyre doing and losing the game by 1 night. You here to play? or are you only here to win? Im also very used to winning while dead, so I dont care if i make it to late game or not XD

SilverCruz wrote:Okay, ya know what, let's take you at face value for a second. All deadlocks are caused by the Mafia screwing up, and they never happen because the Jailor jailed someone arbitrarily and just happened to get the Mafioso only for the Godfather to quit the same night without targeting anyone first, and we'll pretend for a second that you're not very directly advocating gamethrowing because you're going way, way too heavily into rules-as-written.

Why is it healthy for this game to have one faction capable of instantly losing because of one error off the back of one role being overpowered and another role being garbage at everything except deadlocking, while the other main faction can't end up in the same situation due to being fundamentally different?


so your first example involves someone leaving (sorry, gamethrowing) causing their faction to lose.....contradicting yourself hard there.... If someone gamethrows, then the entire maf should just leave game? or just the jailed GF leaving them with a 2v whatever scenario?

and b) the ''overpowered'' role is part of an uninformed minority, so unless town has played well. or mafia has played bad or they got lucky at random (which doesnt improve win rates statistically) its not that big of a deal.....unless you got unlucky by playing badly, then being against a town that played well, then an escort/jailor got lucky, who knows....

like i always said... evil faction makes a mistake, they lose. Town makes mistakes, they have ways to comeback. It takes much more skill to win as evil as it does to win as town.....theres a few threads on these forums with people complaining how, if town mislynch day 2, theyve pretty much lost because witch will deadlock votes and stop jailor from executing...so it works both ways in some scenarios
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:42 am

kyuss420 wrote:
dbpeanut wrote:This comment highlights your two biggest flaws. The assumption that mafia has to be bad to lose/placed in this situation, not that town has to be good. And your objective lack of experience. I've played against you when I was town, I did this exact crap to you. You know what you did? You kept pleading with me before I executed you because we had found your framer by that point.
Don't act like the meta isn't the meta for a reason.
This meta has existed for years without any change because there's not a single realistic counter.
Of course you wouldn't know though.


Would love to have known that game, as Idgaf when Im deadlocked.... a loss or a win means nothing to me, as you sure cant win em all..... take the loss and move on, dont cry cos town spawned an escort as TS or you ran out of time to kill the jailor.... I mean, I scroll for coven roles in VIP, Im used to dealing with leavers and people who dont know what theyre doing and losing the game by 1 night. You here to play? or are you only here to win?

SilverCruz wrote:Okay, ya know what, let's take you at face value for a second. All deadlocks are caused by the Mafia screwing up, and they never happen because the Jailor jailed someone arbitrarily and just happened to get the Mafioso only for the Godfather to quit the same night without targeting anyone first, and we'll pretend for a second that you're not very directly advocating gamethrowing because you're going way, way too heavily into rules-as-written.

Why is it healthy for this game to have one faction capable of instantly losing because of one error off the back of one role being overpowered and another role being garbage at everything except deadlocking, while the other main faction can't end up in the same situation due to being fundamentally different?


so your first example involves someone leaving (sorry, gamethrowing) causing their faction to lose.....contradicting yourself hard there.... If someone gamethrows, then the entire maf should just leave game? or just the jailed GF leaving them with a 2v whatever scenario?

and b) the ''overpowered'' role is part of an uninformed minority, so unless town has played well. or mafia has played bad or they got lucky at random (which doesnt improve win rates statistically) its not that big of a deal.....unless you got unlucky by playing badly, then being against a town that played well, then an escort/jailor got lucky, who knows....

like i always said... evil faction makes a mistake, they lose. Town makes mistakes, they have ways to comeback. It takes much more skill to win as evil as it does to win as town.....theres a few threads on these forums with people complaining how, if town mislynch day 2, theyve pretty much lost because witch will deadlock votes and stop jailor from executing...so it works both ways in some scenarios


You're right, it does take much more skill, with at most one mistake, to win as evils in set modes like Classic and Ranked.
That's the issue.
You actually had 3 games against me, but that was the only one where a deadlock was in play since we were playing Coven All Any. The other two you left D1-N1.
It doesn't matter if someone plays for wins or to have fun- for some people, they're the same thing. In my case, I play for fun.
Doesn't mean that poor game balancing is going to not get scrutinized whenever the meta directly impacts how much fun I can actually have in a game. Deadlocking isn't fun. It also isn't a winnable situation in the majority of cases.
There's no justification for it's existence, considering that there's actually no way for Mafia or Coven to deadlock Town. Sure, a consort can RB a vig, but if it's a "deadlock", you're probably just waiting out until the next day so you can vote. Sure, a CL or Necro can maybe delay their death by a day or two, but if the CL is "deadlocking" then they're killing someone or being voted up the next day. Same with Necro.
In reality, deadlocking is just something that should be removed since literally no other faction in the game can do it.
It's not even like reasonable uniqueness like you could argue with Med or Mayor, it's just bad game design.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:59 am

you realise there is a tonne of ''goose'' imposters playing coven. Only one of them always has the white reaper skin and crow pet. and I havent played CAA except for 2 games for about 3 months - both on the same day, with my friend (who gave me her referral code 4 years ago) who came online after 18 months...so i highly doubt i left n1-day1. I could even give you the date, as we chatted about it on FB afterwards.

I was doc the first game, and went on my friend n1 and n2, because no town wanted to claim... then figured they were maf (but they were some other evil), and I ended up getting hung because ''town'' assumed I was PM, not that there were many town left at that point cos vamps. Pretty sure the 2nd game ended with Maf v CL v SK and maf kingmakered the SK win while CL pleaded hard because ''they played better and carried the coven since their only other member died n2 or 3, then complained about the vote in dead chat after the game ended...idk, i may have been mafia that game....I forget my roles in AA when I die early and watch how the game plays out
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby SilverCruz » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:17 pm

kyuss420 wrote:so your first example involves someone leaving (sorry, gamethrowing) causing their faction to lose.....contradicting yourself hard there.... If someone gamethrows, then the entire maf should just leave game? or just the jailed GF leaving them with a 2v whatever scenario?

and b) the ''overpowered'' role is part of an uninformed minority, so unless town has played well. or mafia has played bad or they got lucky at random (which doesnt improve win rates statistically) its not that big of a deal.....unless you got unlucky by playing badly, then being against a town that played well, then an escort/jailor got lucky, who knows....

like i always said... evil faction makes a mistake, they lose. Town makes mistakes, they have ways to comeback. It takes much more skill to win as evil as it does to win as town.....theres a few threads on these forums with people complaining how, if town mislynch day 2, theyve pretty much lost because witch will deadlock votes and stop jailor from executing...so it works both ways in some scenarios


A, read that again very closely because I think you misunderstood the post.

B, you didn't answer the question. Even if we take everything you're saying as absolute truth, how is it healthy for the game for it to be like that?
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Apr 12, 2021 2:31 am

Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....

So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.

Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.

Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.

So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:37 am

kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....

So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.

Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.

Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.

So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.


Dude, he keeps asking the same question: how is it healthy for the game to be like this, if you can't answer it say so.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:13 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....

So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.

Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.

Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.

So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.


I don't have Coven and I don't want Coven because I'm not inclined to financially support a game that I find to be fundamentally broken, and even if it's less of a problem in Coven that doesn't excuse the situation outside of Coven. Please prefix your next response with "The town being able to deadlock the Mafia is healthy for the game because" and answer the question you've been given, or as it was said, admit that you cannot if that is the case.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby EqsyLootz » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:24 pm

SilverCruz wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:Hard to know what you want exactly tho.....

So if town get lucky, its bad because they can win.
If town think about what theyre doing and use strategy/optimal game theories, its bad because they can win.

Even tho maf can get lucky and win (which usually takes a few bits of luck, not just 1 lucky move), or maf can can use strategies/optimal game theories and win.

Some roles are overpowered...so BMG make them unique. The more unique roles in a game, the easier it is to utilise optimal game theories (which actually works both ways if evils want to target a hidden role) because no one is checking or is sus of the unique roles in game.

So your main problem is deadlocking? giving town an advantage because 1 (or more) role exists that can stop Mafia gaining majority at night, and also giving town as much time as they need to 1 for 1 the rest of the maf, causing mislynches to go unpunished.... (which is rare in coven as all the roles have a kill ability, or are immune to escort)
While town has a huge advantage with TKs in game, as they can increase town majority at night as well as during the day via lynches.


I don't have Coven and I don't want Coven because I'm not inclined to financially support a game that I find to be fundamentally broken, and even if it's less of a problem in Coven that doesn't excuse the situation outside of Coven. Please prefix your next response with "The town being able to deadlock the Mafia is healthy for the game because" and answer the question you've been given, or as it was said, admit that you cannot if that is the case.


You realize if no one finacially supports the game nothing can be fixed right? Either way Coven consists of many great expansions to the game. It's a game. A Deadlock happens like Once in 50 games and it's unfortunate but just get over it. the Chances of getting a deadlock is very VERY slim and Jailor and Escort are both great additions to the game.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby SilverCruz » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:18 pm

Well I'm the only me, and thank God for that.

And "once in 50 games" isn't justifiable. A role that instantly wins just by existing but only appears through Any and has an intentionally reduced rate of spawning to the degree of about 1/200 is still completely broken in spite of the fact that it rarely appears (and never appears in Classic/Un/Ranked).

And you know what the spawn rate of the Jailor tends to be? One in one.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: I got a lot to say all of a sudden, so here we go.

Postby dbpeanut » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:15 am

I'd appreciate it if people would stop recommending Coven on the sole prospect of "It fixes a lot of the game's core problems". Well, it doesn't fix them, it just makes them less likely to be seen for one, and for two, DLC should never be sold as a fix to core issues.
Coven is fun, but by no means should it be commonly said in the community that you should buy Coven because it fixes something.
Also, if a guy doesn't want to financially support the devs more than they already have, and wants the game to get fixed, guess what? They're not wrong for wanting that.
Especially if they've spent years with the game.
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