Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:50 pm

SilverCruz wrote:Leaving does not count as a loss outside of Ranked. Honestly everyone should be able to just delete their stats and not have wins/losses/draws be tracked at all.

Also, Witches can't win while dead. Nevermind that my account is two years older than yours, so... respect your elders.


no one cares if your account is from 2018, 2015, 2025 or 1946
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby EqsyLootz » Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:34 pm

SilverCruz wrote:I still dread that it will be blind to context. Like if a Witch leaves while alive while the Godfather is on the stand and all three other Mafia are dead. That's obviously an acceptable time to leave even though you're alive, though I doubt a robot would see it that way.


Or here's a funny suggestion. HAVE A QUARTER OUNCE OF PATIENCE AND WAIT 1 MINUTE! Gosh.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby dbpeanut » Thu Apr 22, 2021 9:29 pm

EqsyLootz wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:I still dread that it will be blind to context. Like if a Witch leaves while alive while the Godfather is on the stand and all three other Mafia are dead. That's obviously an acceptable time to leave even though you're alive, though I doubt a robot would see it that way.


Or here's a funny suggestion. HAVE A QUARTER OUNCE OF PATIENCE AND WAIT 1 MINUTE! Gosh.


Obviously, even if the Godfather gets off the stand, they're still the most suspect person of the entire town- save for probably the witch. You really can't fault a witch for leaving in that scenario.
Frankly, I'm really starting to dislike your clearly bad faith takes either from a lack of understanding of how actually common most of the scenarios they describe are, or from not wanting to accept a fucking deceit game is bound to have flaws since you're dealing with the basic idea of communication.
I'd like you to at least realize that they're not saying this crap to just hate on the game. They clearly want better for the game and the community. Do you?

syjfwbaobfwl wrote:
SilverCruz wrote:Leaving does not count as a loss outside of Ranked. Honestly everyone should be able to just delete their stats and not have wins/losses/draws be tracked at all.

Also, Witches can't win while dead. Nevermind that my account is two years older than yours, so... respect your elders.


no one cares if your account is from 2018, 2015, 2025 or 1946

While nobody may care- or more correctly, you may not care, the older the account, the more likely they have tons of experience. In TOS's case, it seems like most accounts pre-2018 have a clear knowledge that the game has remained the exact same for a very long time, and post-2018 accounts either lack experience or lack understanding.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:01 am

dbpeanut wrote:Obviously, even if the Godfather gets off the stand, they're still the most suspect person of the entire town- save for probably the witch. You really can't fault a witch for leaving in that scenario.


So are we talking about 5 Town vs. a Godfather and Witch that actually are the only unconfirmed people left in the Town? In that case I wouldn't fault the Witch for leaving.

However, I haven't seen any assurance that SilverCruz isn't talking about a situation where it's 2 confirmed Town, 2 unconfirmed Town and 2 unconfirmed evils, and the Town is voting up unconfirmed people at random. In that case it would be ridiculous to leave while alive; it's still anyone's game. (Don't talk about who is "most suspect"; suspicion can be manufactured as long as you have unconfirmed people to direct it against.)

Similarly if it's 3 confirmed Town vs. 2 confirmed evils, that isn't the time to leave; that's the time to desperately do anything you can to stall, because you're on the verge of winning and you only need the Town to screw up one more time.

dbpeanut wrote:While nobody may care- or more correctly, you may not care, the older the account, the more likely they have tons of experience. In TOS's case, it seems like most accounts pre-2018 have a clear knowledge that the game has remained the exact same for a very long time, and post-2018 accounts either lack experience or lack understanding.


In Kyuss's case, he has earned respect by writing some impressive explanations of game balance and strategy in Coven's VIP mode, so he's past the point of being judged based on his account age (or more accurately, his community participation time, which account age is only an estimate of anyway).

If that isn't good enough for you, my account is 6 months older than SilverCruz's, so I win the seniority game anyway. :P
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby dbpeanut » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:21 am

Brilliand wrote:
dbpeanut wrote:Obviously, even if the Godfather gets off the stand, they're still the most suspect person of the entire town- save for probably the witch. You really can't fault a witch for leaving in that scenario.


So are we talking about 5 Town vs. a Godfather and Witch that actually are the only unconfirmed people left in the Town? In that case I wouldn't fault the Witch for leaving.

However, I haven't seen any assurance that SilverCruz isn't talking about a situation where it's 2 confirmed Town, 2 unconfirmed Town and 2 unconfirmed evils, and the Town is voting up unconfirmed people at random. In that case it would be ridiculous to leave while alive; it's still anyone's game. (Don't talk about who is "most suspect"; suspicion can be manufactured as long as you have unconfirmed people to direct it against.)

Similarly if it's 3 confirmed Town vs. 2 confirmed evils, that isn't the time to leave; that's the time to desperately do anything you can to stall, because you're on the verge of winning and you only need the Town to screw up one more time.

dbpeanut wrote:While nobody may care- or more correctly, you may not care, the older the account, the more likely they have tons of experience. In TOS's case, it seems like most accounts pre-2018 have a clear knowledge that the game has remained the exact same for a very long time, and post-2018 accounts either lack experience or lack understanding.


In Kyuss's case, he has earned respect by writing some impressive explanations of game balance and strategy in Coven's VIP mode, so he's past the point of being judged based on his account age (or more accurately, his community participation time, which account age is only an estimate of anyway).

If that isn't good enough for you, my account is 6 months older than SilverCruz's, so I win the seniority game anyway. :P


Kyuss is quite literally considered to be a problematic player outside of Coven VIP- not that I'm considered any better than them of course. Just that even if you're considered good in one mode, it does not mean you understand the issues of another. I don't comment on Ranked problems often because to be frank, I have a lack of experience with modern Ranked. Just like Kyuss has barely any experience outside of Coven, like they've admitted before.

And yes, it's completely acceptable to leave if you think you're losing. I'd even wager it's acceptable to leave in almost any circumstance. Why punish people for not having fun with the game?
I get it, literally nobody likes leavers, but all people are arguing for is to not actually punish them because they're already being punished- the large majority of them are either not having fun or already being pushed to that point.
And the ones that aren't have crap connections, or are going to get banned for gamethrowing anyways.

I honestly can't see why people argue so hard for what can only be described as a complete waste of resources because of a misunderstanding or a lack of understanding of an issue.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby dbpeanut » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:33 am

Just so I don't have to explain myself further, I see the leaving issue not so much as a punishable issue, but a fixable issue. Treating leavers like garbage will only make the game bleed more. Fixing what makes leavers leave, or at least addressing the core problems, would likely be enough to cause people to start coming back to the game.

All SilverCruz said was, at it's core "If a Witch leaves while the last mafia member is on stand, I don't blame them."
It's not a hard concept to grasp. People LITERALLY leave all the time when they feel like they're losing in any game. You name a game? People have rage quit the game.
Does that mean we should punish or even lambast the large majority of people who leave? Absolutely not!
Once again, not a hard concept to grasp.
I absolutely dislike the amount of people willing to die on the hill for what should be a basic issue to understand- especially for a deceit game where the majority of the game is trying to manipulate people, where communication is the driving force of the game. And punishing people for leaving is both a poor show of communication and a clear lack of understanding.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:58 am

Leaving when you think you're losing is fine if you're a team of one and you chose your role beforehand, but it becomes dubious when you're on a team that's depending on you, or you were randomly assigned a role to play in the game. In the former cases, the bad reasons for leaving can boil down to either "I don't like my teammates" or "I'm not good enough to win in this situation and I forgot to check if my teammates are that good". Can we fix those without punishments? Maybe. But we'd have to fix all of them without punishments before we give up on the idea of punishments.

I can think of ways to fix the randomness issues (though those fixes have their own problems that would need to be discussed), but the premature "we've lost, goodbye" preventing the better players from showing how good they are is still something that, as far as I can tell, requires either punishments or gatekeeping to fix. (EDIT: Actually SilverCruz's "sockpuppet" idea fixes this for Mafia, just not for Town.)
Last edited by Brilliand on Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby SilverCruz » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:04 am

Something like the "5 Town vs. a Godfather and Witch". Un/Ranked, only Godfather and Witch left, Mafioso, both RMs, and Executioner are out.

I will admit freely rounds can swing in ways they don't seem like they should. I had a Classic game as Godfather that I had no right winning because the Mafioso quit Day 1 and the Framer got sacked kind of early, plus the Vigilante and Veteran dying early so both non-static Town roles were gone instantly. I ended up having the sheer dumb luck not getting splattered shooting the Veteran Night 1, the sheer dumb luck of never getting jailed, the sheer dumb luck of catching a Jailor claim, the sheer dumb luck that the Doctor decided to self-heal instead of covering them (with a dead Lookout) so I was able to smack them, then the sheer dumb luck of being able to smack the Investigator, the sheer dumb luck of having not been investigated in time (I don't know what they did the night I smacked them), the sheer dumb luck of the Town, for some reason, just rolling with me railing off against the Doctor and insisting that they're a phony for no reason (I threw in a "What if I'm counterclaiming?", but I don't feel like anyone caught it since nobody ever brought it up), then the sheer dumb luck of, when it was me, the Jester, the Sheriff, and the Medium, managing to get the Sheriff and Medium to roll with me dumping heat onto the Jester (I and them had no claims, so it was either-or to them, I suppose), then finally the sheer dumb luck of both of them voting Guilty so that I got my Innocent through and was able to close that in victory. If this game supported saving replays, I would've kept that one.

That all said, sheer dumb luck is the key phrase there. The match in my eyes was already invalidated when the Mafioso quit and the game decided "Guess they'll die." instead of letting me use them as a sockpuppet or something, and is a complete anomaly, as in ninety-nine out of a hundred other rounds, I would've been completely hosed. I don't remember the exact sequence of events, so I don't remember if the Investigator got shot first or the Doctor got lynched first, but all the same.

As for me, I don't have Coven. I don't want Coven. I don't play Ranked because I don't like that kind of competition, I stick to Un/Ranked because it's the only normal Role List that isn't Classic, and occasionally Classic because it's the only normal Role List that has a Neutral Killing. Would I get Coven if it were being sold for Town Points and some contrivance resulted in me having enough to afford it with Town Points? Sure! But I'm not paying out of pocket for it because I don't respect this game. That I continue to play it at all is a fluke of the fact that I never got thrown out for having never paid for it, and if I were told "Buy Web, Steam, or iOS Premium or you can't play anymore.", I would respond to that with "Bye then." and walk without a second thought. This game isn't worth the five USD buy-in because at its core, it's a neglected live service with developers that are too busy working on something that they refuse to elaborate upon in an immediate fashion and which doesn't seem like it'll address any of the standing problems. as well as having an already anemic playerbase that's been divided thanks to a second paywall.

People aren't happy with this game. Figure out why and address those reasons instead of just punishing them for not enjoying it. The game will be better off that way. Or don't, and just let the game keep ruining matches by killing off Mafia quits on the spot, leave the Almighty Wesley Jailor a blatantly broken and overpowered combination of Escort and Vigilante that is objectively superior to both of them in every way on top of having an Investigative ability that no other role has, leave the Framer a pathetic joke, leave the Disguiser being a role that actively sells out its allies once it dies if there's a Spy, leave the Sheriff blatantly inferior to his peers, leave the Godfather and Mafioso being boring as sin and the Mafioso in particular only existing because of the Escort and Almighty Wesley Jailor, leave the Medium having no answer to players quitting after they die when there's an obvious solution to sidestep that issue by just having them get auto-generated Last Wills from visiting dead players, leave everything as it is. I'm sure that'll be fine too.
I know what I'm doing, generally, but I have no grace at all when things start to spin out of control.

I'd like to address the latter part, but I wouldn't know the first thing about that.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby dbpeanut » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:12 am

Brilliand wrote:Leaving when you think you're losing is fine if you're a team of one and you chose your role beforehand, but it becomes dubious when you're on a team that's depending on you, or you were randomly assigned a role to play in the game. In the former cases, the bad reasons for leaving can boil down to either "I don't like my teammates" or "I'm not good enough to win in this situation and I forgot to check if my teammates are that good". Can we fix those without punishments? Maybe. But we'd have to fix all of them without punishments before we give up on the idea of punishments.

I can think of ways to fix the randomness issues (though those fixes have their own problems that would need to be discussed), but the premature "we've lost, goodbye" preventing the better players from showing how good they are is still something that, as far as I can tell, requires either punishments or gatekeeping to fix.


To address one singular thing- in the example SilverCruz used, Witch is a role that quite literally depends on other evils to win. There's no reasonable way to win Witch only without a mass murder. So any situation where the last evil is getting killed, the Witch has already lost.
Simultaneously, any role that has a very specific win condition (Getting lynched, plundering, or getting target executed) can get completely boned by any factor of circumstances. It shouldn't be all that surprising when a Jester, Exe, Pirate or any other role leaves when they quite literally can't accomplish their tasks.
To address another thing- if someone already has the mindset that they've lost, they're 100% going to create more problems staying in that game than leaving. Toxicity builds up very quickly in TOS, as literally anybody who's played more than a game knows. If someone leaves because they're going to end up being toxic and ruining the game for everyone- as some people do- why should they be punished?
It's quite literally the only correct decision to leave if you're not having fun or you're about to become toxic. Otherwise, you're more than likely tainting the game for everyone involved. So why punish people who leave? Usually, they're making the correct decision even if they impact the game. Sure, there needs to be fixes. But there most certainly doesn't need to be the constant threat of punishment and humiliation.
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Re: Extended wait time for early mafia leavers

Postby Brilliand » Fri Apr 23, 2021 8:22 am

dbpeanut wrote:To address one singular thing- in the example SilverCruz used, Witch is a role that quite literally depends on other evils to win. There's no reasonable way to win Witch only without a mass murder. So any situation where the last evil is getting killed, the Witch has already lost.


On the other hand, it's important to make a distinction between "on the stand" and "getting killed". People get voted up and not lynched all the time.

If the last evil has actually been killed, then the game is over; the only thing that happens between the last evil getting guiltied and the game reporting the list of winners is 5 seconds of Last Words for the player being lynched.

dbpeanut wrote:To address another thing- if someone already has the mindset that they've lost, they're 100% going to create more problems staying in that game than leaving. Toxicity builds up very quickly in TOS, as literally anybody who's played more than a game knows. If someone leaves because they're going to end up being toxic and ruining the game for everyone- as some people do- why should they be punished?


Mm... you're right that that happens sometimes, but I disagree that it's 100%. Some people are capable of changing their minds when they see proof that they're wrong.
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