AfricanHomosexual wrote:Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
Jakinator178 wrote:AfricanHomosexual wrote:Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.
I agree. Mafia gets majority WAY TOO FAST and has nothing to fear.
I think giving spy his old whisper reading power would be useful, and there should also be a way for him to know who witch has controlled.
I've all but given up on TOS. Ever since the bot flood the game has gone down hill.
alex1234321 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.
Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.
OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?
CapWarrior2 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?
Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.
OreCreeper wrote:CapWarrior2 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?
Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.
Imo that's a good thing, because NK just took up about 8% of the total WR that could have easily gone to the other factions. But there's no denying that mafia winrates have benefited from the change more than town winrates.
alex1234321 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:CapWarrior2 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?
Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.
Imo that's a good thing, because NK just took up about 8% of the total WR that could have easily gone to the other factions. But there's no denying that mafia winrates have benefited from the change more than town winrates.
Where did you get that 8% number?
OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.
Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.
I'd rather have one kpn if it means a reduced chance of mafia dying at night for no reason. NKs also make the game more luck-based, because something like an SK randomly killing one of your maf could really hurt mafia's chances, especially if they were doing a play that would out another maf (e.g. if the maf that got killed was doing a trans play). I don't know what you mean by "actual scumreading", but it takes scumreading to execute correctly as jailor or correctly shoot as vigilante. I agree about the mayor thing, but imo that's just bad role design. Mayors should be able to be healed by docs, I don't see why they changed that, since all that does is make mayor more unbalanced based on what the rolelist turns out to be (if all TPs are doc and there's no trans, mayor is screwed). But I don't really think that's a problem with the rolelist. Also, town having less room to mislynch doesn't necessarily mean they can't lynch, it just means they have to lynch correctly (which also requires scumreading).
NKs are proportionally likely to hit Town and Mafia, so the damage caused by an NK killing people is distributed evenly to Town and Mafia. However, the fact that they speed up the game strongly favors scum since the Town is uninformed and needs time to gather information about players. I don't think the possibility of an NK hitting a Mafia member doing a risky play outweighs this.
"Actual scumreading" probably wasn't the best way for me to describe what I was trying to say, but I meant that by having 10 Townies (and ideally removing Jailor from Ranked), coordination among Townies would have a much larger effect on the game than a TK hitting the right person since the game would depend more on lynching players than killing them at night. Without TK, Town is dead in a 9 Town rolelist as long as they mislynch unless TP picks the right person or something. This isn't to say that Town is too weak with 9 members or everything; I'm saying that with 9 members the game can fluctuate much more wildly and in ways that can often involve luck. Adding an NK to a 10 Town rolelist can compensate for the extra member.
alex1234321 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:OreCreeper wrote:alex1234321 wrote:Paradox12 wrote:alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.
But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\
If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.
Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.
I'd rather have one kpn if it means a reduced chance of mafia dying at night for no reason. NKs also make the game more luck-based, because something like an SK randomly killing one of your maf could really hurt mafia's chances, especially if they were doing a play that would out another maf (e.g. if the maf that got killed was doing a trans play). I don't know what you mean by "actual scumreading", but it takes scumreading to execute correctly as jailor or correctly shoot as vigilante. I agree about the mayor thing, but imo that's just bad role design. Mayors should be able to be healed by docs, I don't see why they changed that, since all that does is make mayor more unbalanced based on what the rolelist turns out to be (if all TPs are doc and there's no trans, mayor is screwed). But I don't really think that's a problem with the rolelist. Also, town having less room to mislynch doesn't necessarily mean they can't lynch, it just means they have to lynch correctly (which also requires scumreading).
NKs are proportionally likely to hit Town and Mafia, so the damage caused by an NK killing people is distributed evenly to Town and Mafia. However, the fact that they speed up the game strongly favors scum since the Town is uninformed and needs time to gather information about players. I don't think the possibility of an NK hitting a Mafia member doing a risky play outweighs this.
"Actual scumreading" probably wasn't the best way for me to describe what I was trying to say, but I meant that by having 10 Townies (and ideally removing Jailor from Ranked), coordination among Townies would have a much larger effect on the game than a TK hitting the right person since the game would depend more on lynching players than killing them at night. Without TK, Town is dead in a 9 Town rolelist as long as they mislynch unless TP picks the right person or something. This isn't to say that Town is too weak with 9 members or everything; I'm saying that with 9 members the game can fluctuate much more wildly and in ways that can often involve luck. Adding an NK to a 10 Town rolelist can compensate for the extra member.
Cookazoo2 wrote:they talk about luck when luck is literally part of the game
role generation
tell me why a preset role list is bad
go
kyuss420 wrote:so what is balance?
is it the bigger faction having a bigger win rate?
or is it both factions having a 50/50 chance at winning, depending on which faction plays smarter during the match?
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