The new ranked role list sucks

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The new ranked role list sucks

Postby AfricanHomosexual » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:40 pm

Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Ezradekezra » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:50 pm

Mafia having a better winrate is a non-issue. Just get good.

One of the problems with NKs is that due to the immense difficulty it takes to win as a NK in Ranked with the Season 4 list, they often end up just suiciding onto the Jailor at the first opportunity. The NK buffs didn't really change this that much. Additionally, the presence of NKs turns Witch into a kingmaker. There are a bunch of other issues that I don't remember off the top of my head, but I'm sure that someone else will come along and list them.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:40 pm

Its ranked.

If you arent good enough to spot and lynch an evil player by day 3, then town deserves the loss, and you dont deserve to rank up.

Maybe they could implement it, so that everyone starts with Masters status, so the noobs who cant figure anything out early game, still feel like they big brain?

Besides that, town roles have enough power to turn around a losing game, where mafia doesnt. Mayor, escort, jailor, TPs, transporter, vigilante, vet can all turn around a game where evils have majority. Witch is the only evil that has that kind of power, often outing themselves in the process, and only if theyve been paying attention to claims.

What do you want?? A ranked game where town can not lynch anyone for 4-5 days and still win? or town can make bad plays and mislynch day 2 and day 3 and still win? Or where maf can play a flawless game and still lose?? I mean, thats what classic is for. If you think youre good enough for Masters, when you havent mastered early game, then you have another think coming.......
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Paradox12 » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:42 pm

AfricanHomosexual wrote:Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.

I have a suggestion for ya, bud. The "ideal gamemode" you seem to hint toward appears to be all any. So I suggest you play that, instead of moaning here about ranked being actually skill-based.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:33 pm

I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Paradox12 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:49 pm

alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby alex1234321 » Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:28 pm

Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby OreCreeper » Sun Jan 17, 2021 10:10 am

alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Cookazoo2 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:00 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.


Because the cases when NK would win have been replaced by cases where Town or Mafia would win. This is extremely simple statistics.

TMI slips are a nonissue in TOS but it’s part of the reason SKs win more frequently in forum games (source, mafiascum) can win so much despite being 3ps – they are an uninformed minority who doesn’t like the scum team – read, more attractive to keep alive than the mafia from a town standpoint.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby alex1234321 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 6:04 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.

If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.

Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Jakinator178 » Mon Jan 18, 2021 2:10 pm

[quote="AfricanHomosexual"]Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.[/quote

I agree. Mafia gets majority WAY TOO FAST and has nothing to fear.

I think giving spy his old whisper reading power would be useful, and there should also be a way for him to know who witch has controlled.

I've all but given up on TOS. Ever since the bot flood the game has gone down hill.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Mon Jan 18, 2021 4:14 pm

Jakinator178 wrote:
AfricanHomosexual wrote:Having a confirmed witch in every game means that the mafia can always bank on having a fifth voting member during lynchings, and since exe usually sides with them, this gives them a 6 person voting bloc. This gives town very little time to lynch one of these 6 people before they're outnumbered. The NK roles added instability to the game, making it so that town and mafia alike has to be on the lookout for them and possibly disrupting any advantage either side has. It was the hardest role to play as, but it was also one of the most fun roles and one of the roles that really required creative strategies instead of playing a meta. Besides, the buffs made the roles easier. I still don't understand why the role list was changed, but it's been an absolute disaster and I'm not convinced anybody even wanted this in the first place.


I agree. Mafia gets majority WAY TOO FAST and has nothing to fear.

I think giving spy his old whisper reading power would be useful, and there should also be a way for him to know who witch has controlled.

I've all but given up on TOS. Ever since the bot flood the game has gone down hill.


NO MORE BUFFS TO SPY

Specially that ability which makes it even a more info feeder and way easier to confirm
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby OreCreeper » Mon Jan 18, 2021 8:51 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.

If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.

Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.

I'd rather have one kpn if it means a reduced chance of mafia dying at night for no reason. NKs also make the game more luck-based, because something like an SK randomly killing one of your maf could really hurt mafia's chances, especially if they were doing a play that would out another maf (e.g. if the maf that got killed was doing a trans play). I don't know what you mean by "actual scumreading", but it takes scumreading to execute correctly as jailor or correctly shoot as vigilante. I agree about the mayor thing, but imo that's just bad role design. Mayors should be able to be healed by docs, I don't see why they changed that, since all that does is make mayor more unbalanced based on what the rolelist turns out to be (if all TPs are doc and there's no trans, mayor is screwed). But I don't really think that's a problem with the rolelist. Also, town having less room to mislynch doesn't necessarily mean they can't lynch, it just means they have to lynch correctly (which also requires scumreading).
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby CapWarrior2 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:40 am

OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?


Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:32 am

CapWarrior2 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?


Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.

Imo that's a good thing, because NK just took up about 8% of the total WR that could have easily gone to the other factions. But there's no denying that mafia winrates have benefited from the change more than town winrates.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:27 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
CapWarrior2 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?


Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.

Imo that's a good thing, because NK just took up about 8% of the total WR that could have easily gone to the other factions. But there's no denying that mafia winrates have benefited from the change more than town winrates.

Where did you get that 8% number?
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Jan 19, 2021 1:37 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
CapWarrior2 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK?


Because now theirs extra room were the NK winrate was for, meaning mafia, town and NE probably have also gone up none/more percentage wise for their winrate. And I'm sure everyone else has pointed out, it nearly makes it a guarenteed 6v9 per game.

Imo that's a good thing, because NK just took up about 8% of the total WR that could have easily gone to the other factions. But there's no denying that mafia winrates have benefited from the change more than town winrates.

Where did you get that 8% number?

Idk I just picked a single digit number off the top of my head. Anyway, whether it's 8% or 9%, the exact WR was never my point.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby alex1234321 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:16 pm

OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.

If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.

Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.

I'd rather have one kpn if it means a reduced chance of mafia dying at night for no reason. NKs also make the game more luck-based, because something like an SK randomly killing one of your maf could really hurt mafia's chances, especially if they were doing a play that would out another maf (e.g. if the maf that got killed was doing a trans play). I don't know what you mean by "actual scumreading", but it takes scumreading to execute correctly as jailor or correctly shoot as vigilante. I agree about the mayor thing, but imo that's just bad role design. Mayors should be able to be healed by docs, I don't see why they changed that, since all that does is make mayor more unbalanced based on what the rolelist turns out to be (if all TPs are doc and there's no trans, mayor is screwed). But I don't really think that's a problem with the rolelist. Also, town having less room to mislynch doesn't necessarily mean they can't lynch, it just means they have to lynch correctly (which also requires scumreading).


NKs are proportionally likely to hit Town and Mafia, so the damage caused by an NK killing people is distributed evenly to Town and Mafia. However, the fact that they speed up the game strongly favors scum since the Town is uninformed and needs time to gather information about players. I don't think the possibility of an NK hitting a Mafia member doing a risky play outweighs this.

"Actual scumreading" probably wasn't the best way for me to describe what I was trying to say, but I meant that by having 10 Townies (and ideally removing Jailor from Ranked), coordination among Townies would have a much larger effect on the game than a TK hitting the right person since the game would depend more on lynching players than killing them at night. Without TK, Town is dead in a 9 Town rolelist as long as they mislynch unless TP picks the right person or something. This isn't to say that Town is too weak with 9 members or everything; I'm saying that with 9 members the game can fluctuate much more wildly and in ways that can often involve luck. Adding an NK to a 10 Town rolelist can compensate for the extra member.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby syjfwbaobfwl » Tue Jan 19, 2021 5:42 pm

NKs are proportionally likely to hit Town and Mafia, so the damage caused by an NK killing people is distributed evenly to Town and Mafia. However, the fact that they speed up the game strongly favors scum since the Town is uninformed and needs time to gather information about players. I don't think the possibility of an NK hitting a Mafia member doing a risky play outweighs this.

"Actual scumreading" probably wasn't the best way for me to describe what I was trying to say, but I meant that by having 10 Townies (and ideally removing Jailor from Ranked), coordination among Townies would have a much larger effect on the game than a TK hitting the right person since the game would depend more on lynching players than killing them at night. Without TK, Town is dead in a 9 Town rolelist as long as they mislynch unless TP picks the right person or something. This isn't to say that Town is too weak with 9 members or everything; I'm saying that with 9 members the game can fluctuate much more wildly and in ways that can often involve luck. Adding an NK to a 10 Town rolelist can compensate for the extra member.


Having an NK is one of the most luck-based things in ranked

SK hitting a maf N1 is an auto lose both for mafia and for them unless town plays badly

WW depends a lot on who visits their target, killing a maf is also an insta loss unless town is bad

Arso depend on who visits them, who they douse and if doused people die
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby OreCreeper » Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:00 pm

alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:
Paradox12 wrote:
alex1234321 wrote:I think this is actually a decent rolelist, but I would definitely prefer a 10 Town rolelist and possibly an NK (or even an NC if balanced NC roles were ever added). Neutral factions add more depth to the game, which I think is a good thing. The Town is supposed to be the uninformed majority, but with 9 Town and no Neutrals that oppose Mafia it's MyLo D2 assuming that Mafia gets an N1 kill. Also D1 lynches should be a thing and the phases should be extended. Mafia would be very weak with only three members, but Tactical Mafia Kills should absolutely be added and Spy should be reworked so that Mafia can actually use their abilities without essentially confirming people to a Spy. Also confirmability of Town roles needs to be reduced.

But let's just say that none of those balance changes become a thing. Even then, MyLo D2 is a bad thing to have and I think a 10-3-2 rolelist would fix this. I don't think it's good for Town to have an 80% winrate, but the Elos can be calibrated so that the expected change is 0 for all factions. Not all wins are created equal. The only problem with this is that nobody wants their winrate to be reduced to 20% because of RNG, even if that means that a win gives them a lot more Elo. But I still think a townsided 10-3-2 is more mechanically sound than a balanced 9-4-2.

In the current rolelist, it's only MyLo for town if the jailor metas. If they don't meta, they can still execute N2 to make it 7v6 on d3. Also no amount of mafia buffs or town nerfs would make a 10v3v1v1 fair for mafia unless you add stuff like citizen (which would make the game worse imo), especially if there's an NC in play (which has the chance to roll vampires) as well as an NK. Unless you make every mafia member unkillable, they will certainly lose the game, and it would make the problem with the old list of the NK randomly hitting mafia even worse. I feel like NKs shouldn't be in ranked, mafia should always have at least 4 members, and town should have at least 9 members. The current rolelist is definitely the most balanced winrate-wise and skill-wise, since there is a decrease in luck factors and generally speaking, the faction that played better will come out on top.


I meant balanced NCs (Vampires should be their own faction and don't belong in Ranked) and using it as an alternative to NK (although balanced NC+NK rolelists are possible imo). Besides that, balanced Mafia games usually involve Town winning if there are more scum lynches than mislynches, and the other way around for Mafia. Look at VFM. ToS is different, but even with Jailor/Vig Town isn't going to win most games if a slim majority of lynches are scum. And Jailor should be removed from Ranked or massively nerfed since the skill level of the player who roles Jailor can make or break the Town. Also, NK is a massive buff to scum because they make the game much faster, so having an NK more often than not increases the Mafia's winrate. NKs make Witch gameplay much more strategic while also requiring both Town and Mafia roles to prioritize. With an NK, scumreading for Town is much more interesting since it's possible for two scum roles to be completely opposed to each other. I don't think NK is essential for Ranked, but it's definitely a positive. While I think the current rolelist is decent, giving Town such a slim majority and not having an NK makes the game much more dependent on TKs and less about scumreading.t\

If NK is a mafia buff to scum, explain how mafia winrates have gone up since the removal of the NK? Having an NK does nothing for scumreading, they're usually pretty easy to catch and it's basically 14v1 and mafia usually have no problem throwing the NK under the bus to save themselves. Ranked is a competitive gamemode, so it would be the most fair to have only 2 factions since that makes the game more skill-based. I also believe that the current list makes the game more dependent on scumreading than the old rolelists, since town has less room to mislynch, which means they have to be more careful about who they lynch.

If you were Mafia, would you rather have two people dying every night, or one person? Maybe if there's an Arso I wouldn't want them as Mafia but SKs are very helpful to Mafia.

Since Town has less room to mislynch and all sorts of power roles, the game has more to do with the Jailor executing the right people or Mayor revealing and not being killed because TP happened to roll Bodyguard than actual scumreading.

I'd rather have one kpn if it means a reduced chance of mafia dying at night for no reason. NKs also make the game more luck-based, because something like an SK randomly killing one of your maf could really hurt mafia's chances, especially if they were doing a play that would out another maf (e.g. if the maf that got killed was doing a trans play). I don't know what you mean by "actual scumreading", but it takes scumreading to execute correctly as jailor or correctly shoot as vigilante. I agree about the mayor thing, but imo that's just bad role design. Mayors should be able to be healed by docs, I don't see why they changed that, since all that does is make mayor more unbalanced based on what the rolelist turns out to be (if all TPs are doc and there's no trans, mayor is screwed). But I don't really think that's a problem with the rolelist. Also, town having less room to mislynch doesn't necessarily mean they can't lynch, it just means they have to lynch correctly (which also requires scumreading).


NKs are proportionally likely to hit Town and Mafia, so the damage caused by an NK killing people is distributed evenly to Town and Mafia. However, the fact that they speed up the game strongly favors scum since the Town is uninformed and needs time to gather information about players. I don't think the possibility of an NK hitting a Mafia member doing a risky play outweighs this.

"Actual scumreading" probably wasn't the best way for me to describe what I was trying to say, but I meant that by having 10 Townies (and ideally removing Jailor from Ranked), coordination among Townies would have a much larger effect on the game than a TK hitting the right person since the game would depend more on lynching players than killing them at night. Without TK, Town is dead in a 9 Town rolelist as long as they mislynch unless TP picks the right person or something. This isn't to say that Town is too weak with 9 members or everything; I'm saying that with 9 members the game can fluctuate much more wildly and in ways that can often involve luck. Adding an NK to a 10 Town rolelist can compensate for the extra member.

I think that being able to scumread with only limited time to gather information is an important skill in TOS. Mafia's goal should also be to get as many townies killed as quickly as possible. With NK and 10 townies though, both of those get harder, and NK just makes gameplay more luck based. It's no doubt that NK hitting mafia is a 10x bigger blow to mafia than NK hitting town. Also, it's really annoying especially in SK games when the game gets down to a 1v1v1, it depends on the last townie/NE to determine who wins, which has nothing to do with skill. This is much less likely to happen in the current rolelist because it's much harder to reach a 1v1v1 and exes are more likely to side with mafia anyway.
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Cookazoo2 » Tue Jan 19, 2021 11:43 pm

they talk about luck when luck is literally part of the game

role generation

tell me why a preset role list is bad

go
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Ezradekezra » Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:16 am

Cookazoo2 wrote:they talk about luck when luck is literally part of the game

role generation

tell me why a preset role list is bad

go

No claimspace because every role evils try to fake claim will get hard cc'd

Near-100% Town winrate unless people are severely dumb

Try playing Classic for an example of this
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby Cookazoo2 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 1:27 am

tada

randomness is part of this game

without randomness we cannot live, we will simply meta
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 4:02 am

so what is balance?

is it the bigger faction having a bigger win rate?

or is it both factions having a 50/50 chance at winning, depending on which faction plays smarter during the match?
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Re: The new ranked role list sucks

Postby CapWarrior2 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:32 am

kyuss420 wrote:so what is balance?

is it the bigger faction having a bigger win rate?

or is it both factions having a 50/50 chance at winning, depending on which faction plays smarter during the match?

Theoretically it should be 50/50 (Well a 1:1 ratio per faction if you get what I mean) but practically it will never be reached. Just how everything has errors, disfunctions and the defining probability something will always go wrong, even if it's a millionth chance.
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