Town of Salem Game Forums

by **Soulshade55r** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:11 pm

Introduction:
-While Mafia is in a good position right now, a lot better then they used to be in things aren't perfect. Most of these changes are generally buffs to help Mafia be more balanced and fun.
-I think their should be a "big" mafia Update that works to fix a lot of the issues the Framer, Forger and Disguiser while good didn't fix all that too much.
-I do think this should be the ideal before Season 6, Hopefully during Season 5 We can come up with ways to make the mafia more fun and balanced.
-As "Spy" serves as somewhat as a evil faction counter role I'll list the currently most ideal Spy rework.
(viewtopic.php?f=27&t=113193)

Tatical Mafia:
Spoiler:

Mafia Role Reworks:
Spoiler:

(Framer Rework effects on investigative roles:)
Spoiler:

Example Setups (Wihout Forced Mafioso/GF)
Spoiler:

by **cob709** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:46 pm

The tactical mafia should definitely be used. Sometimes it's really annoying to play as Mafia when your entire team is locked down because the mafioso died and the GF is being repeatedly jailed. However, the Godfather and Mafioso shouldn't get any new abilities. Instead, they should just get a more powerful version of the tactical kill if they choose to take it. Perhaps the Mafioso should have a astral attack, while the Godfather gets a powerful one for performing the tactical kill. This way, the Mafia has more flexibility when choosing which type of attack they want to use(Basic[RM], Astral[Mafioso], Powerful[GF]), and they'd still be punished for using it incorrectly or losing members.

by **Soulshade55r** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:59 pm

cob709 wrote:The tactical mafia should definitely be used. Sometimes it's really annoying to play as Mafia when your entire team is locked down because the mafioso died and the GF is being repeatedly jailed. However, the Godfather and Mafioso shouldn't get any new abilities. Instead, they should just get a more powerful version of the tactical kill if they choose to take it. Perhaps the Mafioso should have a astral attack, while the Godfather gets a powerful one for performing the tactical kill. This way, the Mafia has more flexibility when choosing which type of attack they want to use(Basic[RM], Astral[Mafioso], Powerful[GF]), and they'd still be punished for using it incorrectly or losing members.

Powerful attacks? Seems useless and hurts Mafia more because no one apart from a vesting bg and a alerting veteran has Basic defence, doctor gives powerful defence so I disagree with you on that.

Mafioso astral attacks are cool but I feel like ulimited seems way too powerful and limited makes mafioso feel boring and generic to play.

So personally I believe GF/Mafioso need normal abilities with tatical mafia

by **Royee** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:14 pm

/support

by **OreCreeper** » Sat Nov 28, 2020 9:26 pm

Personally, I believe that the godfather should be able to choose who performs the faction kill as a day ability.

I disagree on the rework to forger and janitor. The reason charges exist is to limit the number of times a role can perform their ability, not the number of times a role can perform their ability successfully. If this was implemented, does that mean that vigilantes should get a "refund" if they shoot an immune role? Does that mean that doctors/bodyguards/survivors should get a refund on their self-protection if they're not attacked? If a guardian angel watches over their target and they aren't attacked, should they be allowed to keep that protection?

Also disguiser and framer can't exist as they currently do. Disguiser and framer are one and the same right now. They both directly alter TI information, except disguiser is like way better at it. I feel like framer should be given disguiser's current abilities and disguiser should be reworked back to, well, an actual disguiser. Not a "make mafia appear innocent" framer, because that should've been framer's job in the first place. The original disguiser rework that allows disguiser to change the role of another player once was a good rework, idk why they gave it to forger. It does the job of casting doubt on role flips better than the forger buff because it affected lynching, so disguiser can disguise a town member as a mafia member, and mafia can push a mislynch on them by claiming sheriff and calling them sus or whatever, and then become "confirmed sheriff" when the town member flips as mafia. Forger buff doesn't really solve any of the problems of mass claiming meta making the role weak, since they can't make their targets appear as an evil role since mafia can't die to mafia, neither can exe. Witch can, but only if they're attacked twice, and can be easily disproven when people still claim witched. And if they forge their target as a townie, and that townie has previously claimed a different role, forger is outed.

by **Soulshade55r** » Sun Nov 29, 2020 1:23 am

OreCreeper wrote:Personally, I believe that the godfather should be able to choose who performs the faction kill as a day ability.

I disagree on the rework to forger and janitor. The reason charges exist is to limit the number of times a role can perform their ability, not the number of times a role can perform their ability successfully. If this was implemented, does that mean that vigilantes should get a "refund" if they shoot an immune role? Does that mean that doctors/bodyguards/survivors should get a refund on their self-protection if they're not attacked? If a guardian angel watches over their target and they aren't attacked, should they be allowed to keep that protection?

Also disguiser and framer can't exist as they currently do. Disguiser and framer are one and the same right now. They both directly alter TI information, except disguiser is like way better at it. I feel like framer should be given disguiser's current abilities and disguiser should be reworked back to, well, an actual disguiser. Not a "make mafia appear innocent" framer, because that should've been framer's job in the first place. The original disguiser rework that allows disguiser to change the role of another player once was a good rework, idk why they gave it to forger. It does the job of casting doubt on role flips better than the forger buff because it affected lynching, so disguiser can disguise a town member as a mafia member, and mafia can push a mislynch on them by claiming sheriff and calling them sus or whatever, and then become "confirmed sheriff" when the town member flips as mafia. Forger buff doesn't really solve any of the problems of mass claiming meta making the role weak, since they can't make their targets appear as an evil role since mafia can't die to mafia, neither can exe. Witch can, but only if they're attacked twice, and can be easily disproven when people still claim witched. And if they forge their target as a townie, and that townie has previously claimed a different role, forger is outed.

1. Then the mafia becomes dependent on the godfather, doesn't fix any issues

2. Forger/Janitor minor buffs not reworks, Mainly because Forger especially can get unlucky and bad mafia screws up who they visit sometimes, in addition Mafioso rework can be used to troll forgers or limited use mafia

3. Disguiser is fine, I think Disguiser shpuld primarly be about hiding mafia, while framer should be framing players old Disguiser was stupid and made no real sense all it could do was impact the game once dead, forger rework isn't "weak" idk what you are smoking its actually really good that forger isn't only situationally useful the best part about forger is they can screw with roles and make the claim space not make sense and cause miss lynches

by **OreCreeper** » Sun Nov 29, 2020 3:15 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Personally, I believe that the godfather should be able to choose who performs the faction kill as a day ability.

I disagree on the rework to forger and janitor. The reason charges exist is to limit the number of times a role can perform their ability, not the number of times a role can perform their ability successfully. If this was implemented, does that mean that vigilantes should get a "refund" if they shoot an immune role? Does that mean that doctors/bodyguards/survivors should get a refund on their self-protection if they're not attacked? If a guardian angel watches over their target and they aren't attacked, should they be allowed to keep that protection?

Also disguiser and framer can't exist as they currently do. Disguiser and framer are one and the same right now. They both directly alter TI information, except disguiser is like way better at it. I feel like framer should be given disguiser's current abilities and disguiser should be reworked back to, well, an actual disguiser. Not a "make mafia appear innocent" framer, because that should've been framer's job in the first place. The original disguiser rework that allows disguiser to change the role of another player once was a good rework, idk why they gave it to forger. It does the job of casting doubt on role flips better than the forger buff because it affected lynching, so disguiser can disguise a town member as a mafia member, and mafia can push a mislynch on them by claiming sheriff and calling them sus or whatever, and then become "confirmed sheriff" when the town member flips as mafia. Forger buff doesn't really solve any of the problems of mass claiming meta making the role weak, since they can't make their targets appear as an evil role since mafia can't die to mafia, neither can exe. Witch can, but only if they're attacked twice, and can be easily disproven when people still claim witched. And if they forge their target as a townie, and that townie has previously claimed a different role, forger is outed.

1. Then the mafia becomes dependent on the godfather, doesn't fix any issues

2. Forger/Janitor minor buffs not reworks, Mainly because Forger especially can get unlucky and bad mafia screws up who they visit sometimes, in addition Mafioso rework can be used to troll forgers or limited use mafia

3. Disguiser is fine, I think Disguiser shpuld primarly be about hiding mafia, while framer should be framing players old Disguiser was stupid and made no real sense all it could do was impact the game once dead, forger rework isn't "weak" idk what you are smoking its actually really good that forger isn't only situationally useful the best part about forger is they can screw with roles and make the claim space not make sense and cause miss lynches

1. I mean like the godfather chooses who performs the mafia kill during the day and chooses who to kill at night, and the chosen mafia can also vote for who to kill like a mafioso. If the godfather is jailed/rbed then the chosen mafia's pick goes through otherwise the godfather's pick goes through. That solves the chain blocking problem pretty well imo. If a godfather is lynched another mafia should probably be promoted to the godfather. I'm thinking that the godfather's day pick goes through while the new godfather can choose who gets killed at night.

2. That's why forger/janitor get 2/3 uses instead of just 1. If mafia is failing more than one kill per game then they're doing something wrong.

3. Yeah disguiser is fine, but it takes most of the power away from framer because disguiser can make mafia members appear as innocent while framer makes townies appear as sus, but why do you need to worry about being found sus when the disguiser can just make you appear as innocent anyway. The disguiser makes townies sus in their own way by making it look like they had wrong information and can make TI mis-accuse townies and mis-defend mafia members. There's no denying that framer right now is really, really bad. And there isn't really a way to fix it without making it basically the same as disguiser. The best way to fix that is to take all of disguiser's abilities and merge them with framer's to create a role that can make townies look sus to investigative roles and their own mafia look inno.

4. Yeah disguiser V2 was bad, but there was a suggested disguiser buff a while ago that lets disguiser disguise anyone as someone else once. That was a pretty cool buff because it means mafia can get away with 1 for 1 mislynches and stuff. Maybe something like giving disguiser V2 the ability to disguise other mafia members, on top of that ability, but removing its ability to fool invest since that's going to framer anyway.

by **Soulshade55r** » Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:34 am

OreCreeper wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
OreCreeper wrote:Personally, I believe that the godfather should be able to choose who performs the faction kill as a day ability.

I disagree on the rework to forger and janitor. The reason charges exist is to limit the number of times a role can perform their ability, not the number of times a role can perform their ability successfully. If this was implemented, does that mean that vigilantes should get a "refund" if they shoot an immune role? Does that mean that doctors/bodyguards/survivors should get a refund on their self-protection if they're not attacked? If a guardian angel watches over their target and they aren't attacked, should they be allowed to keep that protection?

Also disguiser and framer can't exist as they currently do. Disguiser and framer are one and the same right now. They both directly alter TI information, except disguiser is like way better at it. I feel like framer should be given disguiser's current abilities and disguiser should be reworked back to, well, an actual disguiser. Not a "make mafia appear innocent" framer, because that should've been framer's job in the first place. The original disguiser rework that allows disguiser to change the role of another player once was a good rework, idk why they gave it to forger. It does the job of casting doubt on role flips better than the forger buff because it affected lynching, so disguiser can disguise a town member as a mafia member, and mafia can push a mislynch on them by claiming sheriff and calling them sus or whatever, and then become "confirmed sheriff" when the town member flips as mafia. Forger buff doesn't really solve any of the problems of mass claiming meta making the role weak, since they can't make their targets appear as an evil role since mafia can't die to mafia, neither can exe. Witch can, but only if they're attacked twice, and can be easily disproven when people still claim witched. And if they forge their target as a townie, and that townie has previously claimed a different role, forger is outed.

1. Then the mafia becomes dependent on the godfather, doesn't fix any issues

2. Forger/Janitor minor buffs not reworks, Mainly because Forger especially can get unlucky and bad mafia screws up who they visit sometimes, in addition Mafioso rework can be used to troll forgers or limited use mafia

3. Disguiser is fine, I think Disguiser shpuld primarly be about hiding mafia, while framer should be framing players old Disguiser was stupid and made no real sense all it could do was impact the game once dead, forger rework isn't "weak" idk what you are smoking its actually really good that forger isn't only situationally useful the best part about forger is they can screw with roles and make the claim space not make sense and cause miss lynches

1. I mean like the godfather chooses who performs the mafia kill during the day and chooses who to kill at night, and the chosen mafia can also vote for who to kill like a mafioso. If the godfather is jailed/rbed then the chosen mafia's pick goes through otherwise the godfather's pick goes through. That solves the chain blocking problem pretty well imo. If a godfather is lynched another mafia should probably be promoted to the godfather. I'm thinking that the godfather's day pick goes through while the new godfather can choose who gets killed at night.

2. That's why forger/janitor get 2/3 uses instead of just 1. If mafia is failing more than one kill per game then they're doing something wrong.

3. Yeah disguiser is fine, but it takes most of the power away from framer because disguiser can make mafia members appear as innocent while framer makes townies appear as sus, but why do you need to worry about being found sus when the disguiser can just make you appear as innocent anyway. The disguiser makes townies sus in their own way by making it look like they had wrong information and can make TI mis-accuse townies and mis-defend mafia members. There's no denying that framer right now is really, really bad. And there isn't really a way to fix it without making it basically the same as disguiser. The best way to fix that is to take all of disguiser's abilities and merge them with framer's to create a role that can make townies look sus to investigative roles and their own mafia look inno.

4. Yeah disguiser V2 was bad, but there was a suggested disguiser buff a while ago that lets disguiser disguise anyone as someone else once. That was a pretty cool buff because it means mafia can get away with 1 for 1 mislynches and stuff. Maybe something like giving disguiser V2 the ability to disguise other mafia members, on top of that ability, but removing its ability to fool invest since that's going to framer anyway.

1. No because it atill requires a Godfather, if Gf dies what happens next? I actually think it's fine that a smart Rb stops the mafia kill, along with the spy rework suggested above, the mafioso/Gf dynamic makes escort practically useless until mafioso or gf dies. Overall I believe Gf shouldn't be a forced slot maybe sure in ranked but it isn't needed their doesn't need to be a designated Killer.

2. Nah they get 2/3 uses tp balance them out as infinite would be overpowered while 1 would be dumb, stuff like being randomly witched and hitting immune/jail is very common.

3. I like the idea of buffing framer in different ways then making them just current disguiser.

4. A role that requires to be dead or mafia to be dead to be useful isn't good.

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