Ranking Needs an Overhaul

[JTWOLF]

Ok, so I just played my 10 placement games. 8 games as Town, 1 as Mafia & 1 as Executioner. I won them all, so why the fuck did I end up in silver??? Lol what a joke, it did only take me one more win to end up in gold, but still, I should have ended up in gold in the first place. Anyway, the ranking system had no idea how much I contributed to the town. In all those games, there were town members who were fucking useless. Yet these town members get an increase of elo for being carried all game. There are players in Diamond who don't deserve to be there, just because they've been town most of the time and we all know that town usually wins.

Players should get an increase or decrease in Elo based on how much they contribute to the game, how well they do as there role & for completing certain actions. Certain roles deserve more elo for successful actions. As a Vigilante or Jailor you should gain more elo for every successful kill and lose it for killing town members (unless witched). Vigilante should obviously receive more points for successful kills, as getting 3 evils killed as a Vigilante is a lot harder than making 3 successful executes. Doctors and Bodyguards should receive extra points for successful heals/protects, they should receive even more for a successful self protect. Lookouts deserve extra elo for finding a Mafioso/Godfather/Janitor/Forger visiting someone who was killed. Sheriffs deserve elo for finding some sus.

Mafia members should get bonuses for each successful kill and should be penalised for hitting immune and hitting someone who gets healed or protected. Godfather (if it's his decision) or Mafioso should be severely penalised for getting killed by a Bodyguard. Mafia members should also be rewarded for getting voted Innocent on Trial or by not having a Jailor execute them. These things here are important, as there are far to many Mafia members who don't even try to defend themselves or they make up the stupidest claim with the stupidest will. 5 days into the game ("I'm Medium not much to say deads not really talking") Obviously you're getting lynched for this, but if a Mafia member has a smart will and a good claim, they deserve to be rewarded for getting voted innocent, especially later on in the game.

Obviously, certain roles are not going to have much of a benefit with these bonuses, like Medium for example. I don't really see any efficient way you could reward a Medium for playing well, but that's why most roles have a balance % of how often you can get them, so you may not gain much of a reward for winning as Medium, but next game you might play well as a Vigilante. And if you can scum read well then you voting guilty (on evildoers) or innocent (on town) will still give you elo rewards.

Lack of participating should also be punished with negative Elo. If you say absolutely nothing on trial (expect jester) or while Jailed for both Townies and Evildoers, you should be giving a severe elo penalty. Saying gibberish, spam or not defending yourself should also count towards this penalty. I'm unsure if there is an efficient way to monitor this, but it would be great. Not having a will (unless forged) should also give an elo penalty, increasing the penalty as the days go on.

Voting should also have an impact on Elo. Voting an Innocent guilty as an Innocent, should have a -1 elo penalty. If that Innocent is lynched all innocents who voted guilty deserve another -1 or -2 elo penalty. Whilst being the opposite for evil roles. Voting guilty and getting an evildoer lynched as an Innocent would obviously have a positive effect on elo.

At the end of the game, players should be able to select someone as MVP, which gives them a bonus in Elo.

Now obviously these are not set in stone, as I haven't included every role and the elo bonuses/penalties may need to be adjusted for a balanced ranking system, but just thought I'd give a little bit of an idea on what I'm getting at. Please feel free to let me know what you think about this anyway. Also, post suggestions or elo changes. Perhaps more severe penalties for killing Town Members as Vig/Jailor

Jailor
*Jail an Evildoer and not execute (unless out of exes or cant exe anymore) -2
*Kill Evildoers +2, +2, +4
*Kill a Town Member -8

Vigilante
*Kill Evildoers +3, +3, +6
*Kill a Town Member (intentional) -8

Veteran
*Kill Evildoers (per kill) +2
*Kill Town Members (per kill) -2 (-5 for every townie killed night 1)

Sheriff
*Find a Mafia +3
-Have them lynched the next day +3
*Find a Framed target -2
-Have them lynched the next day -6

Doctor
*Successfully heal a Town member (per heal) +4
*Successfully heal an Evildoer -10
*Heal yourself +6

Escort
*Roleblock a member of the Mafia +2
*Roleblock a Town member -2
*Prevent Mafia from killing +3

Transporter
*Have an evildoer killed +5
*Have a town member killed (by vigi who was shooting evils etc) -5

All Mafia
*Get lynched -4
*Be killed at night -4, -8 (for Vet)
*Be successfully voted innocent +1 (+1 for each day not including day 1)
*Have a jailor decide not to execute you +1 (+1 for each day not including day 1)

Godfather or Mafioso
*Kill a Townie +1
*Hit an immune or healed target -6
*Have Mafioso killed by a Veteran (as Godfather) or be killed by a Veteran (no Godfather) -8
*Have Mafioso killed by a Bodyguard (as Godfather) or be killed by a Bodyguard (no Godfather) -10

Framer
*Successful frame someone who is investigated and then lynched +5

Consort
*Roleblock an Investigative role who was checking a Mafia member +2
*Roleblock someone who was protecting or healing Mafias kill target +3
*Save a Mafia member from a Jailors execute +5

Janitor/Forger
*Clean/forge a Medium +2
*Have someone lynched who was a role you forged/cleaned +3

Witch
*Be killed -4
*Kill a Town member with Vigi/Vet +3
*Kill a Mafia member with Vigi/Vet -5
*Send Mafioso/GF into a Bodyguard -8
*Witch Town Protective off Mafias target +3

Executioner/Jester
*Bonus of 20 decreasing by 4 each day, until your target is lynched or you get yourself lynched, which can go into negative (no bonus if killed before this happens)
*Haunt a Townie +5
*Haunt an evildoer -5
Bonus - Added onto how much Elo they get for winning in general. Executioner and Jester are Neutral EVIL not Neutral Good, so hopefully the bonuses would make Executioners/Jesters side with the Evildoers over town
*Win with the town -2
*Win with the Mafia +4
*Win with Neutral Killing +5
*Win by yourself +10
Jesters and Executioners need to stop being rewarded late game for doing absolutely nothing. If Mafia lynches Jester on purpose with Majority day 6 and the Jesters done nothing, that jester does not deserve any extra elo.


Neutral Killing (if it comes back)

Serial Killer
*Per kill (no reward for killing NE/NB) +1
*Kill an Escort/Consort +2
*Kill Jailor while Jailed +4
*Win +12

Arsonist
*Per kill until 3 kills +1
*Bonus after 3rd kill +2
*Douse someone who dies the same night -2
*Douse yourself -5
*Burn yourself -10
*Win +12

Plaguebearer
*Bonus of 15 which decreases by 3 each night until you become Pestilence
*Per kill +1
*Kill a Bodyguard who was protecting your target +2
*Survive being Jailed and executed +3

Voting (obviously opposite for townies)
Should Mayor get +1/-1 for each of their votes?

Evildoers
*Vote guilty on an evildoer -1
*Vote innocent on a town member -1
*Vote guilty on a town member +1
*Vote innocent on an evildoer +1
*Contribute to having an innocent lynched +2
*Contribute to having an evildoer lynched -2

MVP +20

[Paradox12]

This is way too complicated to implement, and this kinda ruins ranked because now people will just focus on doing everything on this checklist instead of, you know, actually trying to win.

[JTWOLF]

This is way too complicated to implement, and this kinda ruins ranked because now people will just focus on doing everything on this checklist instead of, you know, actually trying to win.

WTF are you on about? It really isn't that complicated. There are plenty of games out there with way more complicated ranking systems, adding a function that gives you bonus elo for achieving a successful kill or heal etc etc etc wouldn't be that hard to do. Also how does it ruin rank? the things on the checklist that you get bonus elo for, are actions that are striving towards your roles win condition. Killing an evildoer as a Vigilante is increasing the chance of the town winning, killing a member of the Town is decreasing the chance. Every single thing I've put on this checklist is doing stuff that helps these roles win. I'm honestly struggling to get your logic here. How would these elo bonuses/penalties cause people to focus on them rather than actually trying to win. Seriously? wtf do you mean.

Doc
*Successfully heal a Town member (per heal) +4 - Requires good reading techniques to figure out whos gonna be attacked, obviously just lucky if you heal Jailor though as TP is usually on them
Vig
*Kill Evildoers +3, +3, +6 - What the Vigilante should be doing, so isn't this what a Vigilante should be focusing on. How does them focusing on this stop them from trying to win??? Seriously please explain your logic
Sheriff
*Find a Mafia +3
-Have them lynched the next day +3 - Exactly what they should be doing and intelligent town members should be able to work out if the target was Framed, hence the negative elo for lynching a framed target
Escort
*Roleblock a member of the Mafia +2 - Exactly what they should also be doing, tell me again how focusing on this equates to them not trying to win???
Godfather or Mafioso
*Kill a Townie +1 - Ill say it once again, this is exactly what they fucking should be doing.

So please if you are going to comment please at least leave valid feedback or suggestions. Rather then just using your weird logic that honestly doesn't make any sense

[cob709]

Players should indeed be rewarded for their individual actions during the game. However, it should not be as linear as this.
Also, certain things such as voting shouldn't be punishable because evils need to blend in with the Town, without seeming suspicious for voting innocent.

Overall, players should be awarded ELO for playing well, but the system shouldn't be a straight +x amount, and certain things need to be lenient so that it doesn't significantly affect gameplay or encourage metagaming.
/support

[MafiaxSK]

Rewards for successful vig or jailor kills, or even TP protections, sounds fine. The rest encourages metagaming just for points. Pretending to be BMed or jester on the stand is a legitimate strategy, although not necessarily a good one. Elo shouldn’t be awarded or lost for anything other than hard statistics, like games won or evils killed as TK, etc

Although can we gain or lose less elo when we die early on? It’s really annoying to sustain a town loss when you were killed N1 and lose significant elo for it

[JTWOLF]

Players should indeed be rewarded for their individual actions during the game. However, it should not be as linear as this.
Also, certain things such as voting shouldn't be punishable because evils need to blend in with the Town, without seeming suspicious for voting innocent.

Overall, players should be awarded ELO for playing well, but the system shouldn't be a straight +x amount, and certain things need to be lenient so that it doesn't significantly affect gameplay or encourage metagaming.
/support

I've only suggested a -1 in elo for evils voting a townie as innocent. It would balance out based on other actions.

And rewards for individual actions would be in the background and you wouldn't find out how much elo you gain/loss until the end of the game.

Rewards for successful vig or jailor kills, or even TP protections, sounds fine. The rest encourages metagaming just for points. Pretending to be BMed or jester on the stand is a legitimate strategy, although not necessarily a good one. Elo shouldn’t be awarded or lost for anything other than hard statistics, like games won or evils killed as TK, etc

Yeah, that's why I said "I don't know if it could be efficiently monitored" Saying absolutely nothing while Jailed though is just not even trying and I feel people getting penalise for this would help improve the skill gap in ranked. Same if you're a town member who gets put up to trial and you just don't claim anything or don't even say a word.

About the metagaming. I don't think I've really suggested anything that encourages metagaming. The bonuses and losses are based on successful actions which you should be aiming to do. A Sheriff who can work out whos sus, based on their voting or perhaps the Sheriff notices someones being very quiet, so they decide to investigate them. They deserve benefits if they find them and then they get them killed the next day. Most town members in the lower ranks can't even figure out whos sus even if someone hasn't said a word all game. People should also be penalised for making unsuccessful kills as Jailor or Vigilante, as it's usually the inexperienced players that kill town members. Same with if you're a Godfather and you send Mafioso onto a Bodyguard, smart players can usually avoid this.

Although can we gain or lose less elo when we die early on? It’s really annoying to sustain a town loss when you were killed N1 and lose significant elo for it

100% agree with this. Perhaps just less elo loss for losing if killed Night 1 or Night 2.

[Soulshade55r]

Some situations I could list off as bus plays or really stuff that's out of the players control

[JTWOLF]

Some situations I could list off as bus plays or really stuff that's out of the players control

Yeah well, there's always luck involved in these games, but a lot of the time it's also skilled. Sure you can get caught off guard as Godfather if two tps are dead and then you suddenly get killed by a Bodyguard who hasn't spoken all game. And sure sometimes you may jail a town member who doesn't say anything, so you execute them. These sort of things happen from time to time. But that's no reason to not implement a more balanced ranking system, just because sometimes it's out of the player's control, a lot of games are like that. Overall a more balanced ranking system, based on player actions, successful kills etc would overtime sort out the Silver players from the true Diamond players.

[RiceHatMan]

Really, this should be way, way more simple. Tons of negative points will disinsensitive risky plays, meaning games will be really boring. People would rather lose than make plays that could make them lose more elo, so no support for me.

[Paradox12]

This is way too complicated to implement, and this kinda ruins ranked because now people will just focus on doing everything on this checklist instead of, you know, actually trying to win.

WTF are you on about? It really isn't that complicated. There are plenty of games out there with way more complicated ranking systems, adding a function that gives you bonus elo for achieving a successful kill or heal etc etc etc wouldn't be that hard to do. Also how does it ruin rank? the things on the checklist that you get bonus elo for, are actions that are striving towards your roles win condition. Killing an evildoer as a Vigilante is increasing the chance of the town winning, killing a member of the Town is decreasing the chance. Every single thing I've put on this checklist is doing stuff that helps these roles win. I'm honestly struggling to get your logic here. How would these elo bonuses/penalties cause people to focus on them rather than actually trying to win. Seriously? wtf do you mean.

Doc
*Successfully heal a Town member (per heal) +4 - Requires good reading techniques to figure out whos gonna be attacked, obviously just lucky if you heal Jailor though as TP is usually on them
Vig
*Kill Evildoers +3, +3, +6 - What the Vigilante should be doing, so isn't this what a Vigilante should be focusing on. How does them focusing on this stop them from trying to win??? Seriously please explain your logic
Sheriff
*Find a Mafia +3
-Have them lynched the next day +3 - Exactly what they should be doing and intelligent town members should be able to work out if the target was Framed, hence the negative elo for lynching a framed target
Escort
*Roleblock a member of the Mafia +2 - Exactly what they should also be doing, tell me again how focusing on this equates to them not trying to win???
Godfather or Mafioso
*Kill a Townie +1 - Ill say it once again, this is exactly what they fucking should be doing.

So please if you are going to comment please at least leave valid feedback or suggestions. Rather then just using your weird logic that honestly doesn't make any sense

Doc: Doc should be mainly healing confirmed townies, especially known jailors. This encourages doctors to not do that and instead try to randomly predict who will get attacked, which is a very bad and inconsistent strategy, and sticking to confirmed town is just way better.

Vig: Sometimes you need to kill a townie to confirm someone as evil, or you think someone is sus but they're just bad town. This would make vigis less willing to make risky plays and shoot based off scumreads which is what they should be doing anyway. If I shoot a really suspicious townie, why should I be punished for that when it was the townie that made themselves look suspicious?

Sheriff: Finding mafia is one, but getting mafia lynched the next day is extremely situation and is usually out of the sheriff's control. Sometimes town has a more confirmed evil to lynch and it would be better to get rid of that evil first than do the 1 for 1.

Escort: Escort sometimes needs to roleblock confirmed townies to confirm themselves. They should not be punished for trying to prove themselves as escort (particularly rb'ing jailor n1 or a revealed mayor).

Godfather/mafioso: Yeah this is what they should be doing but this is way too easy to do and shouldn't give you elo. Also sometimes you can randomly attack an exe/witch or you get witched and there is a lot of stuff that can be out of your control.

Also people shouldn't be punished for how they vote. Again, 1 for 1s can happen. And evils need to vote with town at the start to blend in, why should they be punished for this? If there is an outed mafia member, does that mean all other evils should vote innocent on them?

Also, why should jester be punished or rewarded for who they haunt? Whoever the jester haunts has no correlation whatsoever to their win condition. Why should they be punished or rewarded for doing something that has nothing to do with them winning or not?

[Kyosji]

being placed in different tiers by your first 10 placement games is stupid. Wins are random and dependent on the people you play with

[syjfwbaobfwl]

As someoe who played using this system this is my opinion

1 people will usually try to just achieve their role bonus and avoid penalties instead of trying to win
2 is hard to implement and codify

Some penalties are just stupid, you cannot control who visits you as veteran, penalty for jailing an evil and not executing would encourage jailor to not jail at all, escort would be forced to stay at home unless there is a 100% confirmed evil, the exe one encourages to push on day 2 which is usually a bad idea

The idea is good but a future where it works correctly is an utopy

[Brilliand]

There is no way an automated system could carry out a detailed "reward players for making good plays" ELO system without creating a horrible meta that distorts the game.

The particular version in the OP is bad for the the reasons Paradox stated. Cob thinks it should be fixed; I contend that it can't be fixed, for essentially the reasons Soulshade55r stated - there's no way an automated system could understand the nuances involved.

[cob709]

There is no way an automated system could carry out a detailed "reward players for making good plays" ELO system without creating a horrible meta that distorts the game.

The particular version in the OP is bad for the the reasons Paradox stated. Cob thinks it should be fixed; I contend that it can't be fixed, for essentially the reasons Soulshade55r stated - there's no way an automated system could understand the nuances involved.

Perhaps it may work as such, if the player or their faction wins, then they will only be awarded with ELO, and not punished for their actions. But if they lose, they will not be rewarded for their actions, and will be penalized for any mistakes.

Could this be a valid solution that would encourage all players to focus on winning more? As they would only be rewarded if their faction wins, they will focus on that.

[Brilliand]

There is no way an automated system could carry out a detailed "reward players for making good plays" ELO system without creating a horrible meta that distorts the game.

The particular version in the OP is bad for the the reasons Paradox stated. Cob thinks it should be fixed; I contend that it can't be fixed, for essentially the reasons Soulshade55r stated - there's no way an automated system could understand the nuances involved.

Perhaps it may work as such, if the player or their faction wins, then they will only be awarded with ELO, and not punished for their actions. But if they lose, they will not be rewarded for their actions, and will be penalized for any mistakes.

Could this be a valid solution that would encourage all players to focus on winning more? As they would only be rewarded if their faction wins, they will focus on that.

Hmm. You've certainly reduced the problems with the idea, but still you're going to have problems with players on the winning side competing with each other to get a bigger share of the ELO handed out by the computer. This would be worsened by the fact that the single most powerful thing anyone can do - pointing out the entire Mafia in day chat as a credible townie - would be completely ignored by the computer's metrics.

[cob709]

There is no way an automated system could carry out a detailed "reward players for making good plays" ELO system without creating a horrible meta that distorts the game.

The particular version in the OP is bad for the the reasons Paradox stated. Cob thinks it should be fixed; I contend that it can't be fixed, for essentially the reasons Soulshade55r stated - there's no way an automated system could understand the nuances involved.

Perhaps it may work as such, if the player or their faction wins, then they will only be awarded with ELO, and not punished for their actions. But if they lose, they will not be rewarded for their actions, and will be penalized for any mistakes.

Could this be a valid solution that would encourage all players to focus on winning more? As they would only be rewarded if their faction wins, they will focus on that.

Hmm. You've certainly reduced the problems with the idea, but still you're going to have problems with players on the winning side competing with each other to get a bigger share of the ELO handed out by the computer. This would be worsened by the fact that the single most powerful thing anyone can do - pointing out the entire Mafia in day chat as a credible townie - would be completely ignored by the computer's metrics.

Of course! How could I have overlooked such crucial detail? Worry not, for I have a simple solution. We shall implement a complex AI to observe, record. analyze, and evaluate each message that sent and process it through a neural network. Then, it shall award ELO based on the quality of each message they send.

[Brilliand]

Of course! How could I have overlooked such crucial detail? Worry not, for I have a simple solution. We shall implement a complex AI to observe, record. analyze, and evaluate each message that sent and process it through a neural network. Then, it shall award ELO based on the quality of each message they send.

Yeees. You do that.

Of course that being infeasible is precisely my point.

[RiceHatMan]

Of course! How could I have overlooked such crucial detail? Worry not, for I have a simple solution. We shall implement a complex AI to observe, record. analyze, and evaluate each message that sent and process it through a neural network. Then, it shall award ELO based on the quality of each message they send.

Yeees. You do that.

Of course that being infeasible is precisely my point.

I mean, it isn't infeasible, it's just that it's not worth a new system that's slightly better than the standard. It would also take a long time to implement, because i assume BMG hasn't been collecting that sweet, sweet information from games.