Replace Exe with Exe/Jester

[SpiritWolfLord]

Having a confirmed exe in every game makes it easier for town, since unless their target dies N1, they know it'll be exe and not jester. This almost feels like classic, since you only have to figure out what 2 of the evils are.

[MafiaxSK]

Exes can just wait another night or two for their target to die and then play as jester. I agree exe/jester is better but in many cases the exe will become a jester anyway, so we still have to play around that possibility.

[SpiritWolfLord]

Yea, but knowing it is exe d1 takes away a lot of possible plays. One being maf using forger to have a dead jester n1. This can make town think they have greater numbers than they do and give exe/jest more leadway. Another is just knowing it is exe makes it easier for town to deduct evils, since there are only two random evils on the list.

[Soulshade55r]

Jesters a bad roleee

[OreCreeper]

Exe can still turn into jester starting D2, and forger rn is super broken when used correctly, it can take a slight nerf imo.

[Malfoydragon]

I agree with the OP.

[Malfoydragon]

Jesters a bad roleee

You may not personally enjoy it, but there's nothing wrong with it functionally speaking. And it forces townies to have some restraint when it comes to lynching. That aside, I think Jester is a lot of fun.

[Brilliand]

Jesters a bad roleee

You may not personally enjoy it, but there's nothing wrong with it functionally speaking. And it forces townies to have some restraint when it comes to lynching. That aside, I think Jester is a lot of fun.

No, there are material problems with the role.

• Its purpose is to convince town to refrain from lynching... oh wait, you said that. Thing is, lynching is exactly what Town should be doing, and Town shouldn't be punished for lynching an evil. A "bad lynch" (the kind that deserves restraint) is when you have a Town-aligned player on the stand.
• It doesn't even work. Town is better off just lynching the Jester and being done with it. The potential loss of a townie is compensated for by the death of an evil (1-for-1 favors the Town), and hey, the Jester might even kill maf instead of town!

Jester's actual function in-game is to cause dumb players to act even dumber, because they think they "shouldn't" lynch people who appear to be evil.

[dolphina]

yes, i totally agree
jester is a terrible role that definitely needs some new abilities like three vests or visiting for no reason, because that's definitely the point of jest

i agree with all of you

/s

[Malfoydragon]

No, there are material problems with the role.

• Its purpose is to convince town to refrain from lynching... oh wait, you said that. Thing is, lynching is exactly what Town should be doing, and Town shouldn't be punished for lynching an evil. A "bad lynch" (the kind that deserves restraint) is when you have a Town-aligned player on the stand.
• It doesn't even work. Town is better off just lynching the Jester and being done with it. The potential loss of a townie is compensated for by the death of an evil (1-for-1 favors the Town), and hey, the Jester might even kill maf instead of town!

Jester's actual function in-game is to cause dumb players to act even dumber, because they think they "shouldn't" lynch people who appear to be evil.

The presence of Jester has helped town have some restraint when it comes to lynching townies. Townies should be making evidence-based lynches instead of lynching impulsively and Jester helps with that. I can't tell you how many times townies have been lynched (or almost been lynched) by a lynch-happy town in Jester-free games. Some try to use random lynching as a strategy (which is RNG) and this stops that (and I'm not talking about VFR, I know that's different). Random lynching needs to carry some risk. It's not really fair to evils if town randomly lynches someone and it happens to be a mafia member. It's just RNG. To the extent that Jester has discouraged townies from lynching evils, it's worth the cost; and it's not necessarily a bad cost, either, because town is pretty powerful, and having some hesitant lynchers reduces that somewhat.

[Brilliand]

The presence of Jester has helped town have some restraint when it comes to lynching townies. Townies should be making evidence-based lynches instead of lynching impulsively and Jester helps with that. I can't tell you how many times townies have been lynched (or almost been lynched) by a lynch-happy town in Jester-free games. Some try to use random lynching as a strategy (which is RNG) and this stops that (and I'm not talking about VFR, I know that's different). Random lynching needs to carry some risk. It's not really fair to evils if town randomly lynches someone and it happens to be a mafia member. It's just RNG. To the extent that Jester has discouraged townies from lynching evils, it's worth the cost; and it's not necessarily a bad cost, either, because town is pretty powerful, and having some hesitant lynchers reduces that somewhat.

Are you talking about when a confirmed townie says "OK lynch 9 now", and the town proceeds to obey him... and 9 turns out to be evil? That isn't a random lynch, that's a correct lynch where the smart person who picked the lynch just didn't explain himself. (Maybe he lynched 9 for saying "no random lynching"; I certainly would.)

Townies should not be relying on mechanical evidence to make lynches. They should be relying on evidence in the form of what certain people said or neglected to say (that's what makes this game social deduction), but such evidence is usually fuzzy and can look random to people who weren't looking for the same things.

If someone is straightforwardly calling for a "random lynch" in Town of Salem, most likely they are an evil player "randomly" picking someone not on their team for the lynch. If someone accuses someone else of random lynching, though... whoever brought up "random lynching" first is probably scum. Actual random lynching is bad for Town, but the only time I've seen genuine random lynching used is when a Jester or NK was leading the town (though even then they never "randomly lynch" themselves).

The role of a possible Jester in the rolelist is to make less competent townies afraid to lynch people who they know are evil, and the role of an actual Jester in a game is to act almost randomly, taking actions that help no particular side and ultimately killing a player chosen either by whim or by actual RNG. Neither of those are good for the game.

[Robbytherobot]

I think exe/jester is better as of right now witch always helps mafia and so does exe but if its jester/exe mafia doesnt have a likely friend but a possible enemy

[Brilliand]

I think exe/jester is better as of right now witch always helps mafia and so does exe but if its jester/exe mafia doesnt have a likely friend but a possible enemy

This is precisely why Jester shouldn't be included in the rolelist - not even as a possibility. Everyone who affects the game in Ranked should be on one side or the other (or explicitly an impartial moderator, but in ToS the game code fills that role).

[MagnusChase19]

Having a confirmed exe in every game makes it easier for town, since unless their target dies N1, they know it'll be exe and not jester. This almost feels like classic, since you only have to figure out what 2 of the evils are.

Yeah this idea is great cuz it will be easier for jest or exe to win

[Soulshade55r]

Id advocate reworking the role list into a 10v5 but giving major buffs and changes to evils and removing poorly made roles.

I'd likely say with tatical maf something like
10 town same list + Rt.
4-5 mafia no required mafioso because of tatical mafia, likely a gf still
0-1 Witch, witch would be a 50/50 with a rm slot as witch is generally the most powerful evil but is a lone wolf requiring finding mates.