Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

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Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby MarsliPatates » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:44 pm

I think the current interaction between Witch and Arsonist is too awkward to both of these roles.

Let's imagine that we are in a 2v2 situation with 2 Townies against 1 Witch and 1 Arsonist.
Witch controls Arsonist, and obviously knows who they are. But now the witch is doused. The only way this witch wins is helping the Arsonist, but if she decides to not control the Arsonist, he ignites and takes down Witch, so you can't let that happen. If Witch decides to push Arsonish and get him lynched, she loses. Arsonist can also guess who the witch is from who was doused passively that night. He needs the help from the Witch against two townies, but he just accidentally doused Witch.

My solution would be to give the Witch's passive shield the ability to stop this passive douse one time and make Witch lose the shield. This way it's still risky to control an Arsonist because you would lose your immunity but Witch can still confirm who the Arsonist is and side with him if he wants. If you decide to out the Arsonist you just lost your immunity and under a bigger threat of dying at night.

If Witch has lost her shield before controlling an Arsonist, she would get doused.

What do you think? I think this would significantly improve the interaction between these two roles.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby cob709 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:59 pm

witch just needs to.. not visit the arsonist..
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Brilliand » Sat Oct 24, 2020 6:59 pm

This has been proposed before: Witch's mystical barrier should be tweaked

It seems to me that the Witch's shield should block the ignite, not the douse; because the ignite is what has an attack power, the douse doesn't.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby MarsliPatates » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:54 pm

While that idea is quite similar to what I had, I do think a Werewolf attack-rampage should kill you and a Vigilante bullet shouldn’t. That protection should only block against a Basic attack once.

My reasoning for shield removing the douse once instead of protecting against one ignite was this:
- If Arsonist chose to douse you directly by visiting, you should be doused and if ignited, dead.
- If Arsonist sees a Witch control visit and they see that they doused somebody passively, confirms who the Witch is to the Arsonist. An Arsonist shouldn’t be able to out a Witch immediately if the Witch decides not choose to side with him and get him hanged. Other NK aren’t able to know who the witch is the night they were controlled, so I think this is unfair to the Witch. One time douse protection will give Witch other options, like to stay hidden and side with Mafia.
- A role being immune to ignite even for once is too good (not including Pestilence), if there’s a Mafia majority and Witch is openly siding with Mafia, an ignite should take care of her if she is doused.

I just started using the forums now, please let me know if I’m doing something wrong.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby MarsliPatates » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:13 pm

cob709 wrote:witch just needs to.. not visit the arsonist..


Sometimes it happens randomly. Let’s say that you controlled an Arsonist N1. You know who the Arsonist is, and Arsonist most likely knows who you are now since you are doused. Your roles can win together, and has a not so different goal, so they should be able to help each other out instead of being a direct threat to one another. So if Witch outs Arsonist because they don’t want to die, Witch gets outed early because dying Arsonist outed her as a Witch. If Witch doesn’t out Arsonist, now you have to control Arsonist every night so you don’t die, which is detrimental to both of your win conditions. You should be able to work together with an Arsonist. This change will still punish you for controlling an Arsonist, but you still have a chance to win with Arsonist now, since you won’t die unless Arsonist douses you again on purpose, or you choose to control him again.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby cob709 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:54 pm

MarsliPatates wrote:
cob709 wrote:witch just needs to.. not visit the arsonist..


Sometimes it happens randomly. Let’s say that you controlled an Arsonist N1. You know who the Arsonist is, and Arsonist most likely knows who you are now since you are doused. Your roles can win together, and has a not so different goal, so they should be able to help each other out instead of being a direct threat to one another. So if Witch outs Arsonist because they don’t want to die, Witch gets outed early because dying Arsonist outed her as a Witch. If Witch doesn’t out Arsonist, now you have to control Arsonist every night so you don’t die, which is detrimental to both of your win conditions. You should be able to work together with an Arsonist. This change will still punish you for controlling an Arsonist, but you still have a chance to win with Arsonist now, since you won’t die unless Arsonist douses you again on purpose, or you choose to control him again.

If the witch visits the arsonist, then that's their fault. It's not a mechanical problem.
The witch has a choice to visit Arsonist, if they choose to do so, that's their fault.

There are consequences for all actions. The consequence of the Witch visiting the Arsonist is that they are doused. The consequence for the Arsonist visiting the Witch is that they are doused. It is inevitable.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby TheUltimateCake » Sat Oct 24, 2020 10:05 pm

Ah yes, it's Witch's fault for controlling Arsonist N1! But your argument is not that good. How is Witch supposed to know who Arsonist is without, ya know, USING IT'S ABILITY? AN ABILITY MEANT TO FIND IT HELP EVILS, NOT TO HELP EVILS KILL THEM.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby cob709 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:38 pm

TheUltimateCake wrote:Ah yes, it's Witch's fault for controlling Arsonist N1! But your argument is not that good. How is Witch supposed to know who Arsonist is without, ya know, USING IT'S ABILITY? AN ABILITY MEANT TO FIND IT HELP EVILS, NOT TO HELP EVILS KILL THEM.

The witch may choose to control someone else which they know are evil, or choose to abstain from performing their night action in order to stay safe.
Usually, the witch can send players into the Arsonist to help them douse quicker.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Brilliand » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:43 pm

In the example in the OP, Witch needs to just not visit the Arsonist. It was a bad example.

Witch and Arsonist need some way to recover from the situation where the Arsonist doused the witch early (before they could have reasonably realized), regardless of whether that douse was active or passive.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby cob709 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:53 pm

Brilliand wrote:In the example in the OP, Witch needs to just not visit the Arsonist. It was a bad example.

Witch and Arsonist need some way to recover from the situation where the Arsonist doused the witch early (before they could have reasonably realized), regardless of whether that douse was active or passive.

If a mechanic to undouse a player, the witch would force the Arsonist to do so. Due to this, the Arsonist would never be able to burn the Witch, which is thematically supposed to happen.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Brilliand » Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:04 am

cob709 wrote:Due to this, the Arsonist would never be able to burn the Witch, which is thematically supposed to happen.


Thematically, the Town is supposed to burn the Witch.

Anyway, yeah, I wouldn't want a mechanic that allows the Witch to forcibly undouse herself every time she gets doused. The Witch and Arsonist only need to be able to recover from a dousing once.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby MarsliPatates » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:11 am

cob709 wrote: There are consequences for all actions. The consequence of the Witch visiting the Arsonist is that they are doused. The consequence for the Arsonist visiting the Witch is that they are doused. It is inevitable.

I wrote that first example at 2 am so it may be shaky, I apologize. So don’t think too much about that.

The current consequence of controlling Arsonist once makes Witch and Arsonist instant enemies. With Witch needing to hang Arsonist instantly after finding him or having to control the Arsonist every night.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a consequence to controlling an Arsonist, but the current one is so severe it stops the two of them from helping each other. This is really bad, as Witch needs an evil role to win the game and the Arsonist needs to get every neutral’s help as a solo killer. You can side with every other NK in the game, why is Arsonist your most dangerous enemy when you can win together? You should be working to take Town down, not trying to get each other lynched.

In my version the consequence is toned down, and now you can control and confirm who the Arsonist is. This still has a consequence, now you lost your Immunity. If you choose to control him again, you will get doused now.

But at least you can still win together like in the days before the update, like it was meant to.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Harryyoshi » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:53 am

MarsliPatates wrote:
cob709 wrote: There are consequences for all actions. The consequence of the Witch visiting the Arsonist is that they are doused. The consequence for the Arsonist visiting the Witch is that they are doused. It is inevitable.

I wrote that first example at 2 am so it may be shaky, I apologize. So don’t think too much about that.

The current consequence of controlling Arsonist once makes Witch and Arsonist instant enemies. With Witch needing to hang Arsonist instantly after finding him or having to control the Arsonist every night.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be a consequence to controlling an Arsonist, but the current one is so severe it stops the two of them from helping each other. This is really bad, as Witch needs an evil role to win the game and the Arsonist needs to get every neutral’s help as a solo killer. You can side with every other NK in the game, why is Arsonist your most dangerous enemy when you can win together? You should be working to take Town down, not trying to get each other lynched.

In my version the consequence is toned down, and now you can control and confirm who the Arsonist is. This still has a consequence, now you lost your Immunity. If you choose to control him again, you will get doused now.

But at least you can still win together like in the days before the update, like it was meant to.

I mean, first of all, anything that happens night 1 can be bad. Mafia might attack Witch night one, and the Witch would be immediately outed by Spy. Witch controlling Arsonist night 1 is just sad, but same with many other situations. Witch just needs to predict who is Arsonist, and act accordingly. It's rare that a Witch finds evils just by controlling them.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Brilliand » Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:00 pm

Harryyoshi wrote:It's rare that a Witch finds evils just by controlling them.


It's pretty common the Witch finds Mafia roles that way.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:14 pm

This is idiotic let witch be douse immune atleast the first time. Witch has a hard enough time as it is.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:50 am

Please implement this idea along with shield not blocking vigi shot.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Joacgroso » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:08 pm

SkorumpowanyGlut wrote:Please implement this idea along with shield not blocking vigi shot.

I agree with this.

I don't think "git gud" is the right answer to this. First of all, witches should already be controlling suspicious people so they can side with them, unless they have safe targets like vigilantes or townies with a veteran alive. Just because they happened to control the wrong evil it doesn't mean they should be punished that hard.
The main problem is that this also greatly punishes arsonists despite them doing nothing wrong. The NE is all the help they can get, and if they happen to be witched they lose all allies. Sure, things like this are inevitable, but their effects can still be mitigated to make the game less frustrating (therefore, funnier) for everyone.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby SkorumpowanyGlut » Tue Oct 27, 2020 5:29 am

Jester could have Witch shield too (only vs evil attacks) so he doesn't randomly die early game.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby TheUltimateCake » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:34 am

Jester can win with anyone, if they got defence, it would be too easy to win as Jester. The only suggestion for Jester defence would be that they get basic defence N1, since an exe turned jester D2 had basic defence N1.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby kyuss420 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:43 am

Brilliand wrote:
Harryyoshi wrote:It's rare that a Witch finds evils just by controlling them.


It's pretty common the Witch finds Mafia roles that way.


They can also find them by using TIs and scum reading, and spending their nights controlling townies instead of hindering who they suspect is evil.

The game as a whole has problems like this, with every NK. You are never ALWAYS going to get the perfect role list to suit whichever NK spawns in ranked matches. You role Arso in a witch game? sucks to be you...

Decide to go rando controlling in a 2v2 situation? You deserve to lose.....
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Joacgroso » Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:13 am

kyuss420 wrote:They can also find them by using TIs and scum reading, and spending their nights controlling townies instead of hindering who they suspect is evil.

The problem with that is that mafia won't cooperate with a witch unless one of them was witched. Otherwise, it could be a townie baiting them even if a TI did claim witched. So finding them via control sounds better to me.

kyuss420 wrote:The game as a whole has problems like this, with every NK. You are never ALWAYS going to get the perfect role list to suit whichever NK spawns in ranked matches. You role Arso in a witch game? sucks to be you...

Sure, bad things happen, but that doesn't mean we can't try to mitigate it. Allowing arsonists to side with witches after being controlled wouldn't really affect other players, but it would make the game less frustrating to arsonists.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby cob709 » Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:28 pm

Joacgroso wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:They can also find them by using TIs and scum reading, and spending their nights controlling townies instead of hindering who they suspect is evil.

The problem with that is that mafia won't cooperate with a witch unless one of them was witched. Otherwise, it could be a townie baiting them even if a TI did claim witched. So finding them via control sounds better to me.

Why is this considered a problem? The game is about lies and deception, not confirming roles with abilities.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby kyuss420 » Thu Oct 29, 2020 2:18 am

cob709 wrote:
Joacgroso wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:They can also find them by using TIs and scum reading, and spending their nights controlling townies instead of hindering who they suspect is evil.

The problem with that is that mafia won't cooperate with a witch unless one of them was witched. Otherwise, it could be a townie baiting them even if a TI did claim witched. So finding them via control sounds better to me.

Why is this considered a problem? The game is about lies and deception, not confirming roles with abilities.


The game is about a lot of things, to different roles and factions, and to different players and level of players.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Oct 29, 2020 9:49 am

It's also not 100% deception. There's also a lot of cooperation involved.
Joacgroso wrote:I feel like I went from Light Yagami to Keiichi Maebara.

I still hope one day the game will have private lobbies. They would really help.
Also, please nerf vampire hunters.
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Re: Witch's shield should stop passive Arsonist douse once.

Postby Robbytherobot » Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:46 am

Witch always gets f-d over, allowing this would make it much less frustrating to be witch, although it wont do anything to fix other witch issues like IN TT mode
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