Jugg Op compared to other NK.

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Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Polosolo12 » Wed Sep 09, 2020 4:58 pm

I know jugg got a buff for a reason, and although I agree his low win rate used to be dumb, I think this was mostly due to the low chance of receiving jugg. Although I agree with some of the buffs, the basic defense from the start, with everything else he already has, is OP. This means that after only a single kill, he is the most powerful NK in the entire game. Powerful attack, basic defense, attacks every night? Of course, maybe can be argued is at par with WW, but one more kill and now the only thing more powerful than him is pest. Now I understand without basic defense he is at a significant disadvantage compared to the other NK, but I think there can be more to work with here. I can see how having a new ability every round may seem like a balance, but to me, this all depends on how OFTEN, and how POWERFUL, this abilities are.
Basically, I DO think this is probably closer than before to being balanced, but it is not quite there in my opinion, (and increasing the likelihood of juggernaut, while at the same time buffing him, will make it difficult to see how each change effected his win rate... but I guess that's neither here or there.)
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:53 am

The amount of juggernaut games doesn't affect juggernaut's winrate, though. It's (100*games with juggernaut wins)/(games with juggernaut present).
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Ezradekezra » Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:39 am

You seem to be forgetting that the Juggernaut it incredibly weak to roleblocks. If I recall correctly, the Juggernaut cannot use its rampage attack at home, so being roleblocked even at that point prevents any effects. Other NKs, however, can deal with roleblockers. Serial Killers kill them and remove their will, Arsonists douse all visitors, Werewolves will rampage at home, and Pestilence (which technically isn't a NK) rampages both at home and at their target's house.

Juggernauts also don't have an easy time fake claiming. Lookout is very easily confirmable, so a Juggernaut is better off making the riskier play of claiming outside of Investigator results.

These add up to it being rather reasonable that the Juggernaut gets defense N1, especially since all other NKs get it from the start, too.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:56 am

I don't think juggs having permanent basic defense makes them OP. But maybe it would be good to nerf them a bit, since they are almost completely superior to ww and sk as long as they kill n2.
According to the wiki juggernauts rampage home if they are roleblocked after their second kill.
Also, are you sure arsonists can douse escorts if they are roleblocked? It's not like it will be of any help, anyway, since they can't ignite.
edit: actually, the wiki doesn't explicitily say that juggernauts stay home if roleblocked. However, roleblocking them isn't mentioned in the counter guide at the bottom.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:14 am

Juggernaut is meant to be OP

Juggy has the most powerful attack in the game, which ends with unstoppable, that can even bypass jail protection.

Pestilence has the most powerful defence in the game (unstoppable)...pest cant break a doc/doc, doc/crus, crus/crus, crus/BG, BG/doc chain. He wont even kill a trapped target. Pest only has a powerful attack....

Jugg will die to any powerful attack or above... WW, Vet, Pirate, Arso, Pest, Jester, Jailor, BG, trapper.
in the case of Vet, BG, WW and pirate (possibly jailor) they will die to Juggs attack, but Jugg will also die to their attack.

He is really no harder to kill than any other NK...
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Sep 11, 2020 5:23 am

Juggernauts are not very hard to kill, but they are way better at killing than most NKs. They are particulary better than ww in every aspect. They also become a better sk if they get their first kill. And they can kill faster than arsonists, without having to wait as much as plaguebearers.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:55 am

yeah but jugg can kill himself

also most factions prioritize jugg so
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:49 pm

Kingmakers and amnesiacs also prioritize juggernauts. Besides, I thought the biggest priority was Pestilence.
Juggernauts can kill themselves in nights 2 and 3, but after that they can't. It's not very likely they will be controlled or transported into themselves anyway.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:35 pm

Joacgroso wrote:Kingmakers and amnesiacs also prioritize juggernauts. Besides, I thought the biggest priority was Pestilence.
Juggernauts can kill themselves in nights 2 and 3, but after that they can't. It's not very likely they will be controlled or transported into themselves anyway.

They can still kill themself. In fact, I had a Coven Leader kill herself solely for the purpose of not letting Jugg win.

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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:58 pm

I thought they behaved like ww after n3. Nevermind then.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:06 pm

It’s the only thing WW has over Jugg tbh

Jugg can’t rampage at home, either
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:52 pm

They really should add that to the wiki.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 2:23 am

Joacgroso wrote:Juggernauts are not very hard to kill, but they are way better at killing than most NKs. They are particulary better than ww in every aspect. They also become a better sk if they get their first kill. And they can kill faster than arsonists, without having to wait as much as plaguebearers.


Isnt that the whole point of having a role with the strongest attack in the game?
Should we be complaining about Pests defence cos he can only die by lynch?
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:51 am

Just because you think it's meant to be the strongest role in the game it doesn't mean it's good.
Of course there's a reason to complain if it's objectively better than other NKs, as it increases swing. Now, the differences between juggs, arsonists and serial killers are arguable, but juggs are better than wws in pretty much every aspect, which means ww should be buffed or reworked so they have their own quirk.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Brilliand » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:56 pm

kyuss420 wrote:Isnt that the whole point of having a role with the strongest attack in the game?
Should we be complaining about Pests defence cos he can only die by lynch?


Pest has that massive delay before he can kill at all.

Giving Juggernaut such a delay would not harm his "strongest attack power in the game" status at all.

(However it would be an excessive nerf, because Pestilence actually has a more devastating attack than Juggernaut has, so Juggernaut should have a less severe downside.)
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:17 pm

This community is fucked....

''Make Jugg more common!!!''

''Give Jugg defence from n1! its too hard to win as Jugg!!''

nek minit

''Jugg is too OP!! nerf Jugg!!!''

''Its making All Any too unbalanced!!''
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:25 pm

kyuss420 wrote:This community is fucked....

''Make Jugg more common!!!''

''Give Jugg defence from n1! its too hard to win as Jugg!!''

nek minit

''Jugg is too OP!! nerf Jugg!!!''

''Its making All Any too unbalanced!!''

The exact same thing happened with Retributionist.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:33 pm

Brilliand wrote:
kyuss420 wrote:Isnt that the whole point of having a role with the strongest attack in the game?
Should we be complaining about Pests defence cos he can only die by lynch?


Pest has that massive delay before he can kill at all.

Giving Juggernaut such a delay would not harm his "strongest attack power in the game" status at all.

(However it would be an excessive nerf, because Pestilence actually has a more devastating attack than Juggernaut has, so Juggernaut should have a less severe downside.)


Pests attack isnt more devastating than a fully powered up Jugg. Pest attacks can be defended against, Jugg attacks cant. To get fully powered, as Jugg, you have a 5 night delay... longer if you get RBed at a bad time...but with other NKs, TKs, Maf and coven, its actually very hard to get fully powered up, because most of the town is dead by night 6.

where were all these noobs when all the posts came out about Jugg being too underpowered without basic defence until n3? nowhere... so the devs listened to a bunch of bigger noobs and gave Jugg basic defence off the bat, reducing his fully powered up status by 1 night.

Personaly i think there was nothing wrong with Jugg pre nerf and as a rare role, and I was all over those posts telling those noobs how fucked they were.
Personally I also think theres nothing wrong with Jugg now, it is what it is. Its much easier with basic defence from n1, but that was put in place cos noobs complained that it was too hard.

As for comparing it to WW, it always was better than WW, it always was better than SK and Arso and people wanna start complaining after 3-4 years?

so lets compare WW and Jugg for lols...
jugg - cant kill until full moon, then every night after (if not RBed, jailed or pirated on n2 - then, cant do shit til n4) WW - cant kill until full moon (n1 and n3 only) - kils escort/consort jailor and pirate when RBed
jugg - has powerful attack, turns unstoppable for n5+. WW - has powerful attack
Jugg - gains rampage for n4 + WW - has rampage n2, n4+
Jugg can kill WW n2+ WW can kill Jugg n2+
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Joacgroso » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:48 pm

Spoiler:
kyuss420 wrote:This community is fucked....

''Make Jugg more common!!!''

''Give Jugg defence from n1! its too hard to win as Jugg!!''

nek minit

''Jugg is too OP!! nerf Jugg!!!''

''Its making All Any too unbalanced!!''

Those are valid points. There was no reason to keep juggernauts as a secret role. It' just a very artificial way of making the role interesting and selling scrolls. It also has nothing to do with balance, so I don't get what it has to do with this,
Giving them basic defense also reduces the swing when they are killed night 1. Besides, it's not that unlikely that they will be targeted before night 3, especially if they miss a kill for some reason.
I was also thinking more along the line of buffing ww so it isn't just an inferior juggernaut. But even if I suggested nerfing juggernaut, I wouldn't suggest removing their basic defense or making it rarer.

kyuss420 wrote:Pests attack isnt more devastating than a fully powered up Jugg. Pest attacks can be defended against, Jugg attacks cant.

That's not exactly right. There are ways of defending against juggernauts: transporters, bodyguards, veterans and trappers. Sure, the victim will die, but the juggernaut will die too and lose the game, so they have to be careful about who they pick, unlike Pestilence, who can visit whoever it wants. Pest also is likely to kill more people per night than the juggernaut, since it attacks the same people as the juggernaut + everyone who visits them.

kyuss420 wrote:To get fully powered, as Jugg, you have a 5 night delay... longer if you get RBed at a bad time...but with other NKs, TKs, Maf and coven, its actually very hard to get fully powered up, because most of the town is dead by night

I'm not sure if this is right or not since I don't play coven, but isn't that a similar number of nights a plaguebearer has to wait, without being able to kill before it? I checked some videos on youtube and the average day Pestilence was summoned (if it was summoned) was day 5,14.

kyuss420 wrote:where were all these noobs when all the posts came out about Jugg being too underpowered without basic defence until n3? nowhere... so the devs listened to a bunch of bigger noobs and gave Jugg basic defence off the bat, reducing his fully powered up status by 1 night.

Just because juggs should have basic defense it doesn't mean they should have to wait less time to become fully-powered. They could have added some other change for the second kill.

kyuss420 wrote:Personaly i think there was nothing wrong with Jugg pre nerf and as a rare role, and I was all over those posts telling those noobs how fucked they were.
Personally I also think theres nothing wrong with Jugg now, it is what it is. Its much easier with basic defence from n1, but that was put in place cos noobs complained that it was too hard.

I don't mind it's strenght, but rather than it seems just better than other NKs, mainly ww.

kyuss420 wrote:As for comparing it to WW, it always was better than WW, it always was better than SK and Arso and people wanna start complaining after 3-4 years?

so lets compare WW and Jugg for lols...
jugg - cant kill until full moon, then every night after (if not RBed, jailed or pirated on n2 - then, cant do shit til n4) WW - cant kill until full moon (n1 and n3 only) - kils escort/consort jailor and pirate when RBed
jugg - has powerful attack, turns unstoppable for n5+. WW - has powerful attack
Jugg - gains rampage for n4 + WW - has rampage n2, n4+
Jugg can kill WW n2+ WW can kill Jugg n2+

It doesn't really matter when we say that about juggernauts. The points still stand.
Also, you don't have to be that disdainful towards anyone who disagrees with you.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sat Sep 12, 2020 9:58 pm

Here's an idea: Make Juggernaut start with a basic attack instead of a powerful one, and give them the powerful attack as a reward for the second kill, replacing what used to be gaining defense. It might make Juggernaut a bit underpowered if too many people have defense, though.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby kyuss420 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:42 am

Ezradekezra wrote:Here's an idea: Make Juggernaut start with a basic attack instead of a powerful one, and give them the powerful attack as a reward for the second kill, replacing what used to be gaining defense. It might make Juggernaut a bit underpowered if too many people have defense, though.


problem is when they hit someone with basic defence n2. May as well give up there and then..... no kill means no power up, means 2 more nights before a kill attempt can be made again.. Would also make WW a stronger version of Jugg XD
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Brilliand » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:24 am

kyuss420 wrote:
Ezradekezra wrote:Here's an idea: Make Juggernaut start with a basic attack instead of a powerful one, and give them the powerful attack as a reward for the second kill, replacing what used to be gaining defense. It might make Juggernaut a bit underpowered if too many people have defense, though.


problem is when they hit someone with basic defence n2. May as well give up there and then..... no kill means no power up, means 2 more nights before a kill attempt can be made again.. Would also make WW a stronger version of Jugg XD


Juggernaut probably shouldn't have to actually kill his target in order to power up. The swing of landing a regular attack+powering up vs. missing a kill+not powering up for 2 more nights is just too much.

I'd also like Juggernaut to get Bodyguard/Trapper immunity (presumably that would be "astral") at some point. It seems thematically appropriate.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Midio7 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:59 am

I'm confused. A powered up Jugg has powerful defense, atleast that's how I remember when I got powered up as Jugg now some weeks.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby Ezradekezra » Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:28 am

What about changing Juggernaut so that it starts with a one-time barrier, like what Witch has, and then upgrading it to actual defense later on?

Alternatively, the Juggernaut could be upgraded to powerful defense on the second kill. It would make Juggernaut more powerful in the long run, but it would delay the rampage and unstoppable attacks while making the Juggernaut/Pestilence achievement less gamethrow-y.
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Re: Jugg Op compared to other NK.

Postby TheFluffyWaffleV2 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:33 am

Midio7 wrote:I'm confused. A powered up Jugg has powerful defense, atleast that's how I remember when I got powered up as Jugg now some weeks.

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