Witch can't win with arso after arso buff

[Vaktus]

Arso will automatically douse people that visit them -- including witch. Is this an oversight? Arso will end up having to ignite the witch along even if the witch is siding with arso

[Dyzae]

I was asking myself this. I was wondering if a with who end up to witcht he arso was doused or not, with this new buff

[shapesifter13]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

[orangeandblack5]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

tbh the shield should just be changed to work on the first scum attack rather than the first basic attack

The suggestion was always to give it a scum autovest, not a basic autovest, so we know people would be in favor of that already

[OreCreeper]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

tbh the shield should just be changed to work on the first scum attack rather than the first basic attack

The suggestion was always to give it a scum autovest, not a basic autovest, so we know people would be in favor of that already

this works tbh

[Brilliand]

Yes please, witchvest should block all scum attacks (albeit only once) and no town attacks.

I recently saw someone propose that the witchvest should block the douse, but personally I think it should block the ignite (causing the doused witch to survive and become undoused). Makes more sense to me that way because the ignite is the actual attack.

[orangeandblack5]

Yeah that was the idea behind a scum autovest

Block the first attack so not douse

[Vaktus]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

but I am not 100% convinced it should currently

Any particular reason?

[dolphina]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

but I am not 100% convinced it should currently

Any particular reason?

What if the witch is under the age of consent, and does not consent to getting doused when they visit arso?

Then the witch is entitled to monetary compensation, and the arso will be jailed.

[techteen3000]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

i have to agree her shield should protect from douse cause it hurts the witch in case they accidently find the arso and wants to help the nk win instead of the mafia

[Joacgroso]

It hurts the arso more than the witch. If a witch controls an arso, she has to get him killed before he ignites, which is pretty easy if she fakeclaims.

[wozearly]

Any of the NK roles can kill the Witch either on accident or on purpose. I can see an argument that the Witch's ability to see the roles of the players they visit helped her to work with the evil roles once they were found, and that because of this maybe the Witch's 1 time attack shield should also apply to douses, but I am not 100% convinced it should currently.

What would we need to do to 100% convince you?

I agree with the principle that the NKs and Mafia should be able to kill the Witch accidentally (and absolutely agree it helps that the Witch has some defence against accidental murder by their allies) and it's sensible for them to be able to do so deliberately (e.g. the Witch has decided to ally with an opposing evil faction).

The problem I see with the current situation is that it's a sub-ideal situation for both Witch and Arso if the Witch discovers the Arso by visiting. In the early stages, where roles are unclear, the Witch has a reasonable incentive to try to confirm whether someone is evil in order to more openly reveal to and work with them. But if the Witch discovers an Arsonist, they now have no choice but to bus them ASAP to avoid being killed if they ignite, which isn't generally very helpful to non-Town as a whole and is a pretty brutal outcome for the Arsonist. Arso was already the only NK role that had genuine difficulty allying with the Witch, as the Witch has to trust that they haven't been silently doused by accident.


To me there are a couple of simple solutions that shouldn't require major code rework:

1) Triggering the "mystical barrier" to defend against being doused. This means the Witch visiting the Arso isn't compelled to bus them, and in return would help the Arsonist to identify the Witch if they douse them by accident.

2) Giving the "mystical barrier" Invincible defence. This would give the Witch a free pass from a single attack by any Mafia or NK. The potential downside is that while the barrier is intact it also gives them a free pass against visiting an alerting Vet (not a huge issue IMO) or Jailor execution (again, not a huge issue, since it would confirm to the Jailor that they're the Witch).


Modifying the "mystical barrier" to provide Invincible defence only against non-Town attacks, as orangeandblack suggested, is a slightly more elegant solution to 2), but I suspect may be less straightforward to code.

[orangeandblack5]

I have faith that BMG can code things

I get that means it takes longer because you've gotta thoroughly test and validate it but in this case that'd easily be worth it

[wozearly]

I have faith that BMG can code things

I get that means it takes longer because you've gotta thoroughly test and validate it but in this case that'd easily be worth it

I'm with you - my thought was that depending how the attack vs defence check is currently set up, it might be more work because it would need to check whether the attacker is Town or not (which may not currently be lurking in the code, waiting to be re-used) as opposed to, say, changing the strength of the barrier's defence - which would be very easy. This is more of a "lets not let the perfect be the enemy of the good" if BMG is open to a swift easy tweak to address the core issue alongside other planned changes.