Let's Talk About Retributionist

Put any feedback about the game here.

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:53 pm

Soulshade55r wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:That'd do it I guess

Not really familiar with Necromancer because I never really found Coven more appealing than the base game


Necromancer uses a dead players ability but cannot use them again, also some abilities can't be used for obvious reasons. Actually one of the better made coven roles (of course it has the KPN issue being able to use killer roles but with some work to the coven in general it could be alright or fantastic role imo).

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP Kpn based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds kpn to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now.


Necromancer is getting the same TI feedback that Retri is, so it is a major buff for Necro. Also were considering including the TI feedback into Witch/CL logic as well since that would seem to make sense. So there are some nice Coven buffs coming with this Retri rework mini-patch.
User avatar
Achilles
Developer
Developer
 
Posts: 1038
Joined: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:02 pm

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jun 17, 2020 4:57 pm

Achilles wrote:
Soulshade55r wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:That'd do it I guess

Not really familiar with Necromancer because I never really found Coven more appealing than the base game


Necromancer uses a dead players ability but cannot use them again, also some abilities can't be used for obvious reasons. Actually one of the better made coven roles (of course it has the KPN issue being able to use killer roles but with some work to the coven in general it could be alright or fantastic role imo).

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP Kpn based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds kpn to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now.


Necromancer is getting the same TI feedback that Retri is, so it is a major buff for Necro. Also were considering including the TI feedback into Witch/CL logic as well since that would seem to make sense. So there are some nice Coven buffs coming with this Retri rework mini-patch.


This actually sounds like a pretty good idea I know necro a lot of the time gets the short end of the stick if there's too many Ti roles it can't really do much, I was mainly talking about coven actually having pretty insane kpn (roles like posioner become a problem and are either really amazing adding a extra kill each night or not good because of doctor existing).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:15 pm

Soulshader, shall we take this to the balance thread? I've got some things to say about your post, but this is getting off topic.
Image
User avatar
MysticMismagius
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:46 pm
Location: The 12th Astral Plane of Zamboni

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jun 17, 2020 5:18 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Soulshader, shall we take this to the balance thread? I've got some things to say about your post, but this is getting off topic.

of course I didn't mean to get too much off topic (sorry).
Favourite Roles (To play)
Spoiler: Town: Jailor
Mafia: Consort
NE: Witch
NB: Guardian Angel
Coven: Necromancer
NC: Pirate
User avatar
Soulshade55r
Blackmailer
Blackmailer
 
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:45 pm
Location: Uk

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby OreCreeper » Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:23 pm

Some suggestions:

- Reviving a psychic should give psychic results (evil on odd nights, good on even nights).

- Reviving a jailor should perform a "jailor-roleblock" on the target (role-blocks through immunity, prevents visits, and gives powerful defense).

- Reviving a transporter should work as well.

- Reviving a veteran should allow the retri to go on "alert" for one night. Death should be by veteran.

- Reviving a bodyguard to kill an attacker should function the same way as necromancer- only the attacker dies.

- Retributionist should get the immunities of the role they reanimate.

- Maybe neutral roles should be revivable. idk tho
OreCreeper
Vigilante
Vigilante
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:52 pm

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby WildCard65 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:55 pm

JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:Firstly, I am wondering if the dead corpse that will be used by neo-retri will be selected during the day then used at night, or will they be selected and used at night? If a corpse were to be selected during the night, roles such as transporter that interact with two people would do nothing if chosen (similar to necromancer). I feel that neo-retri should have to select the corpse during the daytime so at night the transporter's requirement to select 2 people won't be an issue. This way up to 3 targets can be selected every day: the dead corpse during the day, then up to two live townies during the night (depending on the role of course). If transporter isn't planned to be usable, then selecting the corpse at night should honestly be sufficient. A minor issue that I already see with this suggestion is that it makes the role prone to forgetfulness. I think there have all been times where someone has forgotten to jail during the day (even i ranked games) and I could understand how you guys may desire to avoid this small complexity.


If we go this route, the same should be applied to Necromancer.

JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:
Brilliand wrote: I also think that certain non-visiting roles could be usable by the Retributionist. The Psychic and Veteran both have abilities that apply at the end of the night, so there's in principle no reason the Retri couldn't use them to get one night of Psychic results, and go on a Veteran-like alert once.


I personally like the idea of veteran being usable as it would really suck if the one TK in the game is a vet that dies early. This would at least allow neo-retri to be less of a sitting duck for mafia as it can guarantee defense for itself for one night without using a TP corpse, and it creates doubt (not a guaranteed kill). This is a fair trade-off for not being able to shoot an evil if a vigi simply isn't in the game.


Agreed, but must be applied to Necromancer though.

JakeTheSnake5963 wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote: Question: Does this conflict with Necromancer at all? If Necro and neo-Ret try to use the same corpse, will one of them be prevented from doing so?


In my opinion I feel that it should directly affect the necromancer. Personally I think that if a corpse is used by one, it shouldn't be able to be used again by either. If both the retri and necro were to attempt to use the same corpse on the same night, neither of them should be granted the corpses ability and the corpse could remain unused. Instead, a notification should come up letting each role know of the other's existence and that the corpse was unusable because of it. This will make it a priority for both town and coven to get rid of the corresponding role as they would lock each other into a stalemate. If the necro/neo-retri were to be interferred with at night the other could continue as per usual. I don't believe this would be a bad thing because it would disadvantage both town and coven equally until either faction finds and gets rid of the role in question.


I found a reply from wozearly that I agree with in regards to this.

wozearly wrote:
Achilles wrote:Important considerations:
I'm still in the process of brainstorming how Ret will interact with cleaned roles or a Disguiser. I am currently thinking the Ret could be used to determine if a role in the graveyard was actually a Disguiser or attempting to use a cleaned role to figure out what that role was.


While I sort-of like the idea that Retri can try to figure out cleaned roles, I think in practice this is a bad idea as it gives too much utility against the Janitor. It's quite risky to provide fake info on the role if a number of roles can effectively be checked with 100% accuracy via a Retri (notably including all TIs except Psychic). The only real downside for the Ret is the pretty low chance of picking a cleaned/stoned Vigi (or Crusader in Coven) and killing a Townie while trying to understand what the role was. I'd say make it unable to use cleaned/stoned roles at first, as with the Necro, and tweak later if Retri seems underpowered.

With regard to Disguisers disguised as Town, it's important this isn't blindly obvious to the Retri (ie, they're not selectable despite being Town). I think the best way of handling this is for them to appear selectable, but trying to use them won't cause anything to happen (ie, as if they had no targetable night ability). This would make TI Disguisers easier to identify as fake, but only if Town is willing to ignore the info in their will for a whole day to let the Retri check. It also may lead to encouraging misplays if Town think they have an Escort/TP/Vigi when actually they don't. It also opens a small window of opportunity for Retris to look fake (why didn't you use the dead doctor on the Jailor last night?), or for ballsy scum to claim Retri and say a dead TI is a Disguiser.


I agree with this, as it would give Town too much power over the Mafia/Coven.

wozearly wrote:
Brilliand wrote:I think the Disguiser should function as the role that it shows as in the graveyard, so if it died disguised as Escort then the ret can use it as an Escort.


That would pretty much force Disguisers to avoid disguising as TPs, Escort and Vigilante unless they're 100% certain there's no retri, as those roles will all end up being used against the remaining Mafia. Disguisers have it bad enough without landing that on them as well.

Brilliand wrote:I am, overall, worried about the Retributionist running out of bodies to use. If the first three nights are "Sheriff dies", "Investigator dies", and "Maf hits an immune", then the retri spends the first three nights functioning as half of a TI. To compensate for that... perhaps non-killing roles should have two uses instead of one? (it's a minor thing, though.)


There are typically around 8 other Townies in most modes; that should be more than enough corpse-meat for the Retri. Yes, there'll be games where Town doesn't die initially, or where roles are cleaned, but that helps overall as it places pressure on the Retri to claim without proof. Allowing a Retri to have two cracks at the whip with TIs would mean they could prove themselves beyond almost all doubt with access to a dead Investigator or Lookout.

Brilliand wrote:I also think that certain non-visiting roles could be usable by the Retributionist. The Psychic and Veteran both have abilities that apply at the end of the night, so there's in principle no reason the Retri couldn't use them to get one night of Psychic results, and go on a Veteran-like alert once.


True, but the rules are easier to communicate if non-visiting roles are all non-functional. Also, I'm not feeling any particularly great desire to give the Retri any more access to killing abilities than it already has!


FULL. AGREE.
Image
User avatar
WildCard65
Doctor
Doctor
 
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby cob709 » Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:28 pm

If the new Retributionist uses a dead vigilante and shoots a Townie, are they punished?
I SEE ALL
User avatar
cob709
Mayor
Mayor
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:34 am

Presumably no, as having killed a town member is a punishment - although this would be a good time to remove Vigilante's suicide guilt, and just make it so they lose their shots rather than taking their own life.
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
User avatar
orangeandblack5
Halloween 2017 Winner
Halloween 2017 Winner
 
Posts: 5767
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:24 pm
Location: University of Michigan

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Brilliand » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:55 am

Even without removing suicide guilt, the same principle applies as when using a Bodyguard or visiting a Veteran: if there's any dying to be done by the "visitor", the corpse takes the hit, and the Necro/Retri is unharmed.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby James2 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:06 pm

I really don't see why Ret needs to be changed.
James2
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby cob709 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:12 pm

James2 wrote:I really don't see why Ret needs to be changed.

because its op
I SEE ALL
User avatar
cob709
Mayor
Mayor
 
Posts: 874
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:44 am

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby James2 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:20 pm

cob709 wrote:
James2 wrote:I really don't see why Ret needs to be changed.

because its op


Overpowered by what standard? That it's often decisive? So are mayor and jailor. And the escort, sheriff, invest, vig, and a whole host of other roles can be decisive.

I don't see how "we need to nerf the powerful roles" doesn't logically lead to the whole game being mountainous.
James2
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Brilliand » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:25 pm

James2 wrote:the whole game being mountainous.


Could you rephrase that? I can't figure out what it means.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby James2 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 3:27 pm

Brilliand wrote:
James2 wrote:the whole game being mountainous.


Could you rephrase that? I can't figure out what it means.


Mountainous is a term for mafia games with no PRs at all.
James2
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1555
Joined: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:02 pm

James2 wrote:
cob709 wrote:
James2 wrote:I really don't see why Ret needs to be changed.

because its op
Overpowered by what standard? That it's often decisive? So are mayor and jailor. And the escort, sheriff, invest, vig, and a whole host of other roles can be decisive.
Overpowered bu the standard that reviving a townie does way, way more than any other role, in a really unhealthy way.
Here’s everything the Retributionist does currently:
Spoiler: 1. Sets the Mafia back a night of killing
2. Brings back a powerful Town member such as Jailor or Mayor
3. Easily confirms yourself and the revived town member
4. Confirms/denies existence of all mediums
5. There is no skill ceiling or skill floor. It's just a button you click once and you can't fail unless you are roleblocked or witched.
6. There are no repercussions it's only pure good: you can't accidentally kill a vigilante like a BG can, you can't kill a Town member like a vigilante/jailor/veteran can, you can't roleblock a Town member like an Escort can, you can't heal a Mafia member like a Doctor can, etc. It's like the Vampire Hunter, it can only help its faction, it has absolutely no drawbacks.
7. Confirms roles and wills of all Cleaned and Stoned roles (though do take care that they could be a NE or Mafia member and lie).
8. Gives Town another vote with the revived Townie
James2 wrote:I don't see how "we need to nerf the powerful roles" doesn't logically lead to the whole game being mountainous.
Because nerfing roles is not the only tool in the toolkit. Nerfs and buffs are both applied until the game is reasonably balanced.
Image
User avatar
MysticMismagius
Consigliere
Consigliere
 
Posts: 1271
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:46 pm
Location: The 12th Astral Plane of Zamboni

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby kyuss420 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:28 am

OreCreeper wrote:Some suggestions:

- Reviving a psychic should give psychic results (evil on odd nights, good on even nights).

- Reviving a jailor should perform a "jailor-roleblock" on the target (role-blocks through immunity, prevents visits, and gives powerful defense).

- Reviving a transporter should work as well.

- Reviving a veteran should allow the retri to go on "alert" for one night. Death should be by veteran.

- Reviving a bodyguard to kill an attacker should function the same way as necromancer- only the attacker dies.

- Retributionist should get the immunities of the role they reanimate.

- Maybe neutral roles should be revivable. idk tho


Problem is, its the dead corpse that is using its ability, not the ret. Its not changing role for the night.... So the immunities should remain on the corpse, not transfer to the ret.

Idk how the jailor RB would work, as thats decided before the night commences, not during the night

I dont like the vet idea tho, (hope he didnt use all his alerts before he died)... besides, (since no one has mentioned it yet) if ret is able to use NKs, GF and mafiosos, its already got oppurtunity to get more kills than vig and jailor, making it a TS with better killing abilities than any TK in the game.
goosegoosegoosegoosegoose
Spoiler: Image Spoiler: Image Spoiler: Image Spoiler: Image Spoiler: Image
User avatar
kyuss420
Serial Killer
Serial Killer
 
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2017 1:33 am
Location: Im here

Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Brilliand » Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:46 am

kyuss420 wrote:Problem is, its the dead corpse that is using its ability, not the ret. Its not changing role for the night.... So the immunities should remain on the corpse, not transfer to the ret.


Anything that can control an Escort has to be roleblock-immune. Anything that can control a Transporter has to be Transporter-immune (not that the upcoming Ret can control Transporters, but I hope that will change eventually.)

kyuss420 wrote:Idk how the jailor RB would work, as thats decided before the night commences, not during the night


I think he's asking to get the "Jailkeeper" effect (heal+roleblock during the night) from using a Jailor... which isn't the same thing, but it's thematically closely related.

kyuss420 wrote:if ret is able to use NKs, GF and mafiosos, its already got oppurtunity to get more kills than vig and jailor, making it a TS with better killing abilities than any TK in the game.


Ret explicitly can only use Town roles, so no NK/GF/Mafioso.
User avatar
Brilliand
Godfather
Godfather
 
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Previous

Return to Feedback

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests