Let's Talk About Retributionist

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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:26 pm

Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.
I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.

The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.
I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do it
@Achilles would this suggestion be possible to implement?
It's actually more complicated than just dealing with the extra buttons. Transporter has role priority 2, Witch, Coven Leader, Necro and Ret have role priority 3 and Escort/Consort have role priority 4. This means Transporter is immune to Witch control and Trans, Witch, CL, Necro, Ret are all immune to role blocks. There is a logical reason for this. I'm sure some smart people in this thread can elaborate on why these role interactions have to be mutually exclusive.

Here is a hint: If I Transport an Escort into myself and I am now roleblocked, how did I transport the Escort in the first place?
So, I’m presuming that’s a no. T’is a shame, but duly noted.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 16, 2020 1:36 pm

Achilles wrote:It's actually more complicated than just dealing with the extra buttons. Transporter has role priority 2, Witch, Coven Leader, Necro and Ret have role priority 3 and Escort/Consort have role priority 4. This means Transporter is immune to Witch control and Trans, Witch, CL, Necro, Ret are all immune to role blocks. There is a logical reason for this. I'm sure some smart people in this thread can elaborate on why these role interactions have to be mutually exclusive.

Here is a hint: If I Transport an Escort into myself and I am now roleblocked, how did I transport the Escort in the first place?


I would think this would be solved by having the Retributionist act at the same priority as the role that it's using - so a Retributionist using a Sheriff can be roleblocked, but a Retributionist using a Transporter can't be. (Naturally, a Witch controlling the Ret would control where the corpse is sent - assuming it's a controllable corpse - not which corpse the Ret uses).

Isn't that what you were working on here:

Achilles wrote:Retributionist/Necromancer: There are some fundamental issues with how Necromancer works that will also effect Retributionist when there is a rework to make it similar to Necro. This has to do with role priority ordering and since the Necro can control many different roles it needs to inherit the role priority of what it is controlling.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:02 pm

Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
Brilliand wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:additional suggestion: It'd be cool if, when either neo-Ret or Necromancer died, the other would be able to use their corpse to reuse a dead role they've already used.
I like this idea, but I don't think the interface for it is possible. The Ret already needs two buttons: one for who to use, and one for where to send them. If using a Transporter, he needs three buttons: one to pick the Transporter, and two to direct the transport. If using another Ret, he needs one button + all the buttons that Ret has. 1+x=x won't work no matter what x is.

The only way this could work is if picking a target popped up a menu that could itself contain more menus, and that's not how the ToS interface is designed.
I mean Achilles is right here, we could always ask if there's a feasible way to do it
@Achilles would this suggestion be possible to implement?


It's actually more complicated than just dealing with the extra buttons. Transporter has role priority 2, Witch, Coven Leader, Necro and Ret have role priority 3 and Escort/Consort have role priority 4. This means Transporter is immune to Witch control and Trans, Witch, CL, Necro, Ret are all immune to role blocks. There is a logical reason for this. I'm sure some smart people in this thread can elaborate on why these role interactions have to be mutually exclusive.

Here is a hint: If I Transport an Escort into myself and I am now roleblocked, how did I transport the Escort in the first place?

Oh god please don't get into the specifics of action resolution here

Next thing you know this will be a NAR/RAR debate
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:03 pm

That aside is there anything wrong with bumping a Retted/Necro'd Transporter to the top of 3 and having them act like a tie with 2?

Or is that just overcomplicated to develop? I have no clue how rigid the priority system is in the actual code

After all, a Transporter is incapable of stopping you from reviving your true target (the corpse)
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:28 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Achilles wrote:It's actually more complicated than just dealing with the extra buttons. Transporter has role priority 2, Witch, Coven Leader, Necro and Ret have role priority 3 and Escort/Consort have role priority 4. This means Transporter is immune to Witch control and Trans, Witch, CL, Necro, Ret are all immune to role blocks. There is a logical reason for this. I'm sure some smart people in this thread can elaborate on why these role interactions have to be mutually exclusive.

Here is a hint: If I Transport an Escort into myself and I am now roleblocked, how did I transport the Escort in the first place?


I would think this would be solved by having the Retributionist act at the same priority as the role that it's using - so a Retributionist using a Sheriff can be roleblocked, but a Retributionist using a Transporter can't be. (Naturally, a Witch controlling the Ret would control where the corpse is sent - assuming it's a controllable corpse - not which corpse the Ret uses).

Isn't that what you were working on here:

Achilles wrote:Retributionist/Necromancer: There are some fundamental issues with how Necromancer works that will also effect Retributionist when there is a rework to make it similar to Necro. This has to do with role priority ordering and since the Necro can control many different roles it needs to inherit the role priority of what it is controlling.


Indeed it is. In order to fix a few bugs the Necro has I created a system for it to have dynamic role priority based on what it is reanimating. Retri will work the same way.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:35 pm

So...

Transporter not an issue?
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:38 pm

Although actually an Escort should probably be able to RB a transport-using Ret

Although if the ret transports themself so they're no longer RB'd they would ideally not be

But what if a Ret takes a Transporter and then transports the Escort into RBing them

yeah screw it stick with the simple system of just stealing the ability's priority

kinda sad a side-effect is using a transport is un-rbable but whatever

Side question - can a Ret ret a dead Ret?
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:46 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Although actually an Escort should probably be able to RB a transport-using Ret

Although if the ret transports themself so they're no longer RB'd they would ideally not be

But what if a Ret takes a Transporter and then transports the Escort into RBing them

yeah screw it stick with the simple system of just stealing the ability's priority

kinda sad a side-effect is using a transport is un-rbable but whatever

Side question - can a Ret ret a dead Ret?


In the current design all double target roles wont work for Ret to reanimate
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Soulshade55r » Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:55 pm

Wouldn't transporter trans retri and the second target like necro?

at least I'm pretty sure that's how necro works with trans
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Robbytherobot » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:25 pm

I have a (small) fix for trans, trans self to target, if we cant get a full trans out of trans we should atleast have reduced functionality.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:27 pm

I'm still a fan of just selecting your corpse from the graveyard menu and letting the action buttons work as they normally would AFTER you have selected a target

Plus, wasn't part of the point of the Unity redesign to allow for more clear action selection than the old button-only format?
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Robbytherobot » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:31 pm

I think I agree with this but what about cleaned /stoned roles? What would selecting the first target in the gui do for most roles
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:37 pm

I would personally be more on board with letting a reworked Medium determine what cleaned roles are, and I think Ret will be strong enough to survive being unable to control cleaned corpses

So ideally they just can't choose them
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:38 pm

Yeah, especially since letting neo-Ret use cleaned roles in any capacity indirectly nerfs Janitor, one of the few good Mafia roles, in a way it really doesn't need
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Brilliand » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:42 pm

Achilles wrote:In the current design all double target roles wont work for Ret to reanimate


So, back to our original question: is it feasible to change this?

orangeandblack5 wrote:I'm still a fan of just selecting your corpse from the graveyard menu and letting the action buttons work as they normally would AFTER you have selected a target


I'm liking this idea too. There could be "primary" use-corpse button in the Graveyard next to (usable) corpses you haven't used yet, secondary "use-corpse" buttons (in a different color) next to the other (usable) corpses that only appear if you select a Ret as the primary, and "ordinary" target-living buttons corresponding to the role that you chose to use (which may be two buttons if you chose Transporter).

@Achilles, would this be an easy enough change to include in the current Ret/Necro rework package?
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:11 pm

Brilliand wrote:
Achilles wrote:In the current design all double target roles wont work for Ret to reanimate


So, back to our original question: is it feasible to change this?

orangeandblack5 wrote:I'm still a fan of just selecting your corpse from the graveyard menu and letting the action buttons work as they normally would AFTER you have selected a target


I'm liking this idea too. There could be "primary" use-corpse button in the Graveyard next to (usable) corpses you haven't used yet, secondary "use-corpse" buttons (in a different color) next to the other (usable) corpses that only appear if you select a Ret as the primary, and "ordinary" target-living buttons corresponding to the role that you chose to use (which may be two buttons if you chose Transporter).

@Achilles, would this be an easy enough change to include in the current Ret/Necro rework package?


The Witch can't effect a Transporter either. You are getting off-topic with this. Instead of being about the Retributionist rework it is getting into role priority discussion and changing Witch, CL logic and menus along with the Retri/Necro. Let's not throw the kitchen sink into the mix here and focus on the Retributionist redesign to be in-line with the current Necromancer.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 5:21 pm

The Retri/Necro will reanimate a player for the night and set their target. Then role night abilities for every role in the game will execute in the proper role ordering. Any important feedback will be sent to the Retri/Necro. The logic of their abilities is similar to a Witch. If 2 Witches control the same player, that player can still only execute their night ability 1 time and it will be pseudo random as to what Witch will set their target last. Thus for Retri/Necro reanimating the same target (or multi Retri) the reanimated player can still only execute their night ability 1 time and it will be pseudo random if the Retri or Necro is the last one to set the dead players target. For this reason I don't think multi-retris will be very fun as they will be fighting over corpses to use.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:11 pm

So, do Necromancer and neo-Ret share a pool of corpses, or is there only interference if they choose the same corpse on the same night?
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:34 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:So, do Necromancer and neo-Ret share a pool of corpses, or is there only interference if they choose the same corpse on the same night?


Although it breaks thematics a bit, I think it is important for corpse rotting to not be a global variable. If it was it would dilute the power of Retri/Necro a lot when both exist. I am also trying to design the code so that if both roles target the same corpse on the same night, it will only rot for the one who successfully uses the reanimated corpse.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:56 pm

I see. Thanks for the info!
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue Jun 16, 2020 7:27 pm

Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:So, do Necromancer and neo-Ret share a pool of corpses, or is there only interference if they choose the same corpse on the same night?


Although it breaks thematics a bit, I think it is important for corpse rotting to not be a global variable. If it was it would dilute the power of Retri/Necro a lot when both exist. I am also trying to design the code so that if both roles target the same corpse on the same night, it will only rot for the one who successfully uses the reanimated corpse.

Why not just let both use it? Especially given rotting isn't global (the right move for sure)
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby MysticMismagius » Tue Jun 16, 2020 8:20 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:So, do Necromancer and neo-Ret share a pool of corpses, or is there only interference if they choose the same corpse on the same night?
Although it breaks thematics a bit, I think it is important for corpse rotting to not be a global variable. If it was it would dilute the power of Retri/Necro a lot when both exist. I am also trying to design the code so that if both roles target the same corpse on the same night, it will only rot for the one who successfully uses the reanimated corpse.
Why not just let both use it? Especially given rotting isn't global (the right move for sure)
From what I gather it's because the roles use the dead player directly to perform their abilities, show their name to Lookouts and Trackers, etc.

And they can't have it so that the same "person" goes to two different people when the role is not coded that way
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Achilles » Tue Jun 16, 2020 10:17 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:
Achilles wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:So, do Necromancer and neo-Ret share a pool of corpses, or is there only interference if they choose the same corpse on the same night?
Although it breaks thematics a bit, I think it is important for corpse rotting to not be a global variable. If it was it would dilute the power of Retri/Necro a lot when both exist. I am also trying to design the code so that if both roles target the same corpse on the same night, it will only rot for the one who successfully uses the reanimated corpse.
Why not just let both use it? Especially given rotting isn't global (the right move for sure)
From what I gather it's because the roles use the dead player directly to perform their abilities, show their name to Lookouts and Trackers, etc.

And they can't have it so that the same "person" goes to two different people when the role is not coded that way


Yes exactly. Same logic behind why 2 Witches can't force a player to perform their night action on 2 different people in the same night.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Jun 17, 2020 12:41 am

That'd do it I guess

Not really familiar with Necromancer because I never really found Coven more appealing than the base game
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Let's Talk About Retributionist

Postby Soulshade55r » Wed Jun 17, 2020 3:02 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:That'd do it I guess

Not really familiar with Necromancer because I never really found Coven more appealing than the base game


Necromancer uses a dead players ability but cannot use them again, also some abilities can't be used for obvious reasons. Actually one of the better made coven roles (of course it has the KPN issue being able to use killer roles but with some work to the coven in general it could be alright or fantastic role imo).

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP Kpn based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds kpn to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now.
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