On Medium (and Ret)

[Brilliand]

The game's balance is built around ranked. Casual players, harsh as it is, are irrelevant.

lol I wish

Person interested in balancing All Any, right here. <--

[orangeandblack5]

I do wish more focus was put on Ranked but like I don't not get why the devs spend more focus on casual players

That is the majority of the userbase

Would many changes targeting ranked have positive effects for them? Yes absolutely

Is it possible to balance things for Ranked and then alter things that become issues in chaos modes if/when they do? Yep

But with the transition back away from a sole focus on Unity for a few years I can see why we'd be running a bit slow and would therefore not necessarily want to leave things that aren't already broken broken for a few patches

[Brilliand]

I can see why we'd be running a bit slow and would therefore not necessarily want to leave things that aren't already broken broken for a few patches

I'm not sure I parsed this right. It sounds like you said that since we're running slow, we want to make sure to fix everything that isn't broken all at once... but that doesn't sound like something that you would say.

[orangeandblack5]

I mean we don't want to introduce new things that are broken with no fast way to un-break them

[kyuss420]

Problem is, (as you can see from brilliands sarcasm in the top post --if it was sarcasm--), if you break things in chaos modes, the mindset is ''Its meant to be unbalanced anyway'' so nothing really gets done about it...

as for modes like VIP, its easy to see how changes can easily break the mode. Even with the ret change, if Necromancer is rolled and ret is taking priority over the corpses, coven are done for. With most roles stoned in the first few nights, if youre lucky enough to lynch a vig or crusader, and ret gets priority, you are losing a coven member that night for sure.

eg Instead of Necro sending dead crus to an outed coven, to kill the vigi and waste towns lynch the following day, (which is a very common move) that coven member is now shot, town have +1 majority cos the vigi lives and a free lynch the following day (and the ret sending that crus to the TP on VIP claim, means that TP claim lives so thats another +1 majority to town and if they kill the coven that attacked them, thats another dead coven member for a -2)

The vig example is interesting tho, because the ret would be forced to use the vigi that night, just to try and block the necro from using it for a night, which would result in a dead townie, if ret wasnt paying attention, altho they could just launch it at the protected vip

[Brilliand]

as you can see from brilliands sarcasm in the top post --if it was sarcasm--

Not sarcasm. I'm unironically more interested in balancing All Any, though I try to argue points in terms of their effect on Ranked because that's what most other balance-interested people here seem to care about.

The "swing based on which role the most skilled player rolls" argument is a favorite of mine, since it's a close analogue for how balance works in All Any.

[orangeandblack5]

Bumping this with Ranked offseason

Anybody have any particularly good Medium replacement ideas?

[MysticMismagius]

Take away the ability to seance and DragonClaw66's Medium Rework seems pretty good. It gives Mediums most of the powers they should have, without the irritating dependence on players not leaving.

[cob709]

Take away the ability to seance and DragonClaw66's Medium Rework seems pretty good. It gives Mediums most of the powers they should have, without the irritating dependence on players not leaving.

I agree. Though, the way feedback is displayed to medium will be annoying, in the same way spy has a cluttered last will between bug and mafia visit

[Soulshade55r]

Going to leak my suggestions to ranked overhaul thread I guess lol but I was working on a "medium rework"

Medium Town Investigative
Attack: None.
Defence: None.
Abilities:
-During the day you may "Seance" a dead player 3 times, you will learn what happened to them & their last results, you will learn their results even if cleaned or forged.
-During the Night you may Link a Alive player to a dead player learning if they killed that target.

Changes:
-Totally overhauled, removes dead interaction from the game, Retri was a good start but Medium needs to be removed in its current state, Not sure if this would need a buff in the future but seems good for now, This role keeps the spirit of medium without being spoon feed info plz.

Keep in mind this is a Idea, this would rework Medium into "Ti" which sort of fits medium because it's gathers info.

[cob709]

Going to leak my suggestions to ranked overhaul thread I guess lol but I was working on a "medium rework"

Medium
Town Investigative
Spoiler: Attack: None.
Defence: None.
Abilities:
-During the day you may "Seance" a dead player 3 times, you will learn what happened to them & their last results, you will learn their results even if cleaned or forged.
-During the Night you may Link a Alive player to a dead player learning if they killed that target.

Changes:
-Totally overhauled, removes dead interaction from the game, Retri was a good start but Medium needs to be removed in its current state, Not sure if this would need a buff in the future but seems good for now, This role keeps the spirit of medium without being spoon feed info plz.

Keep in mind this is a Idea, this would rework Medium into "Ti" which sort of fits medium because it's gathers info.

The first ability does everything the medium needs to do. This is a good replacement for the current medium
However, the second ability has limited functionality

[Soulshade55r]

Going to leak my suggestions to ranked overhaul thread I guess lol but I was working on a "medium rework"

Medium
Town Investigative
Spoiler: Attack: None.
Defence: None.
Abilities:
-During the day you may "Seance" a dead player 3 times, you will learn what happened to them & their last results, you will learn their results even if cleaned or forged.
-During the Night you may Link a Alive player to a dead player learning if they killed that target.

Changes:
-Totally overhauled, removes dead interaction from the game, Retri was a good start but Medium needs to be removed in its current state, Not sure if this would need a buff in the future but seems good for now, This role keeps the spirit of medium without being spoon feed info plz.

Keep in mind this is a Idea, this would rework Medium into "Ti" which sort of fits medium because it's gathers info.

The first ability does everything the medium needs to do. This is a good replacement for the current medium
However, the second ability has limited functionality

Here's the thing and reasons why I limited Seance, You may disagree with me here, but I think theirs fundamental issues with that ability if unlimited and its too weak to have 3 uses on it's own.

The Seance Ability generally is very game state dependent, it also generally would take any meaningful "strategy" if you made it unlimited, This would also cause issues which spy has (Unique's being useless, dependent on being fed infomation instead of making "choices"), at least if you had 2 mediums you could spread out seance's, generally though it would be niche and dependent on roles such as Ti's

The second ability generally works as a "coroner" in general I'm thinking of ways to Buff it up a bit without making medium too op, I want a general Role that has some Independence from dead, but can gain powerful information from it, maybe even reducing seance to 2 uses (if I found a decent buff), In general I think Medium needs to be designed from the ground up but the "seance" I suggested can have a way of Mediums "niche" (finding last day results) be still there, It can also work as a "counter" to cleans without completely ruining janitor, as it will only see anything like Results

I just think seance or Link alone wouldn't be great on their own, The seance ability itself is pretty powerful given the right situation, the coroner aspect is more a complimentary night action to help mediums still find information, perhaps it could do with a buff somehow, I just think both abilities are good together rather then having a Infinite use seance or something.

Edit:
Also this makes medium a decent fake claim which should be the goal of balance, rn meds a "ok" fake claim but runs into double med confirms and paste the dead chat meta... which aren't really good lol even if you can fake dead chat it's still stupid.

[cob709]

Spoiler:

Going to leak my suggestions to ranked overhaul thread I guess lol but I was working on a "medium rework"

Medium
Town Investigative
Attack: None.
Defence: None.
Abilities:
-During the day you may "Seance" a dead player 3 times, you will learn what happened to them & their last results, you will learn their results even if cleaned or forged.
-During the Night you may Link a Alive player to a dead player learning if they killed that target.

Changes:
-Totally overhauled, removes dead interaction from the game, Retri was a good start but Medium needs to be removed in its current state, Not sure if this would need a buff in the future but seems good for now, This role keeps the spirit of medium without being spoon feed info plz.

Keep in mind this is a Idea, this would rework Medium into "Ti" which sort of fits medium because it's gathers info.

The first ability does everything the medium needs to do. This is a good replacement for the current medium
However, the second ability has limited functionality

Here's the thing and reasons why I limited Seance, You may disagree with me here, but I think theirs fundamental issues with that ability if unlimited and its too weak to have 3 uses on it's own.

The Seance Ability generally is very game state dependent, it also generally would take any meaningful "strategy" if you made it unlimited, This would also cause issues which spy has (Unique's being useless, dependent on being fed infomation instead of making "choices"), at least if you had 2 mediums you could spread out seance's, generally though it would be niche and dependent on roles such as Ti's

The second ability generally works as a "coroner" in general I'm thinking of ways to Buff it up a bit without making medium too op, I want a general Role that has some Independence from dead, but can gain powerful information from it, maybe even reducing seance to 2 uses (if I found a decent buff), In general I think Medium needs to be designed from the ground up but the "seance" I suggested can have a way of Mediums "niche" (finding last day results) be still there, It can also work as a "counter" to cleans without completely ruining janitor, as it will only see anything like Results

I just think seance or Link alone wouldn't be great on their own, The seance ability itself is pretty powerful given the right situation, the coroner aspect is more a complimentary night action to help mediums still find information, perhaps it could do with a buff somehow, I just think both abilities are good together rather then having a Infinite use seance or something.

Instead of having two separate abilities that compliment each other, one ability should be buff'd and the other removed.

Medium
Town Investigative
Abilities

Each night, seance a dead player.

Attributes

You will learn what happened to your target.
You will learn your target's role and last will.

The problem with the above rework is that it is still a hard-counter against janitor and forger. However, sending a message via last will may be a valid tactic.

Medium
Town Investigative
Abilities

Each night, link a dead and living player.

Attributes

You will learn when your targets have visited each other.

Time traveling tracker

Edit:
Also this makes medium a decent fake claim which should be the goal of balance, rn meds a "ok" fake claim but runs into double med confirms and paste the dead chat meta... which aren't really good lol even if you can fake dead chat it's still stupid.

I enjoy fake claiming medium. The copy+paste dead chat meta makes me cry

[Soulshade55r]

Spoiler:

Going to leak my suggestions to ranked overhaul thread I guess lol but I was working on a "medium rework"

Medium
Town Investigative
Attack: None.
Defence: None.
Abilities:
-During the day you may "Seance" a dead player 3 times, you will learn what happened to them & their last results, you will learn their results even if cleaned or forged.
-During the Night you may Link a Alive player to a dead player learning if they killed that target.

Changes:
-Totally overhauled, removes dead interaction from the game, Retri was a good start but Medium needs to be removed in its current state, Not sure if this would need a buff in the future but seems good for now, This role keeps the spirit of medium without being spoon feed info plz.

Keep in mind this is a Idea, this would rework Medium into "Ti" which sort of fits medium because it's gathers info.

The first ability does everything the medium needs to do. This is a good replacement for the current medium
However, the second ability has limited functionality

Here's the thing and reasons why I limited Seance, You may disagree with me here, but I think theirs fundamental issues with that ability if unlimited and its too weak to have 3 uses on it's own.

The Seance Ability generally is very game state dependent, it also generally would take any meaningful "strategy" if you made it unlimited, This would also cause issues which spy has (Unique's being useless, dependent on being fed infomation instead of making "choices"), at least if you had 2 mediums you could spread out seance's, generally though it would be niche and dependent on roles such as Ti's

The second ability generally works as a "coroner" in general I'm thinking of ways to Buff it up a bit without making medium too op, I want a general Role that has some Independence from dead, but can gain powerful information from it, maybe even reducing seance to 2 uses (if I found a decent buff), In general I think Medium needs to be designed from the ground up but the "seance" I suggested can have a way of Mediums "niche" (finding last day results) be still there, It can also work as a "counter" to cleans without completely ruining janitor, as it will only see anything like Results

I just think seance or Link alone wouldn't be great on their own, The seance ability itself is pretty powerful given the right situation, the coroner aspect is more a complimentary night action to help mediums still find information, perhaps it could do with a buff somehow, I just think both abilities are good together rather then having a Infinite use seance or something.

Instead of having two separate abilities that compliment each other, one ability should be buff'd and the other removed.

Medium
Town Investigative
Abilities

Each night, seance a dead player.

Attributes

You will learn what happened to your target.
You will learn your target's role and last will.

The problem with the above rework is that it is still a hard-counter against janitor and forger. However, sending a message via last will may be a valid tactic.

Medium
Town Investigative
Abilities

Each night, link a dead and living player.

Attributes

You will learn when your targets have visited each other.

Time traveling tracker

Edit:
Also this makes medium a decent fake claim which should be the goal of balance, rn meds a "ok" fake claim but runs into double med confirms and paste the dead chat meta... which aren't really good lol even if you can fake dead chat it's still stupid.

I enjoy fake claiming medium. The copy+paste dead chat meta makes me cry

Having two separate abilities is functionally fine, what would be the issue, in general the role is fairly simple either way, I generally think it's fine if a role has "2" abilities, allows for more creative room in role design.

Seance whole purpose is to be limited, being unlimited really ruins the point of the role and takes away a lot of "choice", If anything it should be cut to 2 uses, Linking a dead and alive player could be buffed, but the seance ability works fine on medium as a complimentary action, Medium currently has two abilites aka passive dead chat reading and seance once dead, I don't really see the issue personally.

[orangeandblack5]

I would argue that it can stay in TS if it only has that ability to check dead people for info

Fundamentally that's different from a TI imo

[Soulshade55r]

I would argue that it can stay in TS if it only has that ability to check dead people for info

Fundamentally that's different from a TI imo

Nah i think I've already said why that's a bad idea but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

[orangeandblack5]

I'm just saying that I don't think gathering info from the dead on what happened to them is really the core purpose of TI and that I'd still consider that TS

[Soulshade55r]

I'm just saying that I don't think gathering info from the dead on what happened to them is really the core purpose of TI and that I'd still consider that TS

Huh really? I find it "information gathering" really, Dead chat is generally more support? current med suits support, but arguably could be TI (worse then sheriff by a lot Ti), Generally both serve the purpose of gathering info

It's clear that support abilities are generally just abilities that don't really fit into any other category, Trans/Escort got actions that disrupts others, Retri is a JOAT, Mayor is a town power a vote based role, While medium clearly has a purpose of finding information, but its also not in a traditional sense, I don't think you can consider the jail chat of jailor investigative, but generally Med can find hidden information.

[orangeandblack5]

Medium that can only get info of what dead people were is very very unlikely to directly incriminate living evils and therefore should not count towards the town's TI budget imo

[Soulshade55r]

Medium that can only get info of what dead people were is very very unlikely to directly incriminate living evils and therefore should not count towards the town's TI budget imo

Mediums general only purpose is to gather information from dead, confirm other meds and disconfirm any fake meds.
Even though it's extremely weak in doing so compared to any Ti, It's pratical purpose is information gathering.

Don't get me wrong Medium in it's current state would be a horrendous Ti, I think in general the role is horribly UP, where it's main purpose is randomly countering some RM (Jani/Forger/Amb) and finding extra info from Tis, with some confirmation.

Meds a very weak role but in nature it's a Ti, as its purpose is only to get information of scum, it functionally cannot do anything outside of that (Unless you count sceance? but that also just lets the med pass on infomation to someone else). By nature I believe Medium is a information gathering role, just like Ti's