Remove Ret from Town Traitor PLEASE

[EgyptFalcon]

Here's what ret is:

1. a confirmed non-traitor
2. revives a confirmed non-traitor
3. everything that's op about it in ranked carries over

I get that it's just weird for it to be a traitor role but then just remove it from this mode! Good god is it oppressive and ruins games even faster than it does in ranked.

I love the new gamemode but this little oversight is extremely painful.

[MysticMismagius]

Once Ret gets rebalanced and is less oppressive it'll most likely be back in the pool of traitors, because it won't be weirdly OP and UP at the same time
Removing Ret from TT just to put it back later is kinda pointless

[orangeandblack5]

I strongly disagree with the mentality that temporary band-aid fixes to issues that will be more comprehensively fixed at some later date are at all "pointless"

[kyuss420]

Vet is much worse... lynch the coven, then every townie that can visit suicides on vet to stop any mislynches. Any visiting role that didnt suicide is traitor. then start lynching the non visiting roles...

[EgyptFalcon]

Vet is much worse... lynch the coven, then every townie that can visit suicides on vet to stop any mislynches. Any visiting role that didnt suicide is traitor. then start lynching the non visiting roles...

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

[kyuss420]

Vet is much worse... lynch the coven, then every townie that can visit suicides on vet to stop any mislynches. Any visiting role that didnt suicide is traitor. then start lynching the non visiting roles...

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is quite easy, if you know how coven operates... but if you are a player that just randomly visits and think every other player is just randomly visiting, then yea, the odds are stacked against you from the time you enter the lobby....

[EgyptFalcon]

Vet is much worse... lynch the coven, then every townie that can visit suicides on vet to stop any mislynches. Any visiting role that didnt suicide is traitor. then start lynching the non visiting roles...

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is quite easy, if you know how coven operates... but if you are a player that just randomly visits and think every other player is just randomly visiting, then yea, the odds are stacked against you from the time you enter the lobby....

bruh... this is from the person that says VIP is balanced...

guess you don't know how to play coven normally lmao

[MysticMismagius]

That is also from one of the top Coven players in the world, so...

Maybe don't dismiss kyuss420 out of hand so easily?

[orangeandblack5]

I mean, we shouldn't dismiss anybody out of hand

But that cuts both ways

[Brilliand]

When the world's foremost expert says something is easy, that translates to "possible" for the rest of us.

[EgyptFalcon]

That is also from one of the top Coven players in the world, so...

Maybe don't dismiss kyuss420 out of hand so easily?

I mean, we shouldn't dismiss anybody out of hand

But that cuts both ways

Yeap. I was turned off by the comment that implied I'm a player that just randomly visits and thinks that every other player is just randomly visiting.

[kyuss420]

That is also from one of the top Coven players in the world, so...

Maybe don't dismiss kyuss420 out of hand so easily?

I mean, we shouldn't dismiss anybody out of hand

But that cuts both ways

Yeap. I was turned off by the comment that implied I'm a player that just randomly visits and thinks that every other player is just randomly visiting.

my comment wasnt targeting you in particular, altho I can see that it could seem that way, as I quoted your remark. More of a generalisation of my observations of the last week or so, since the free weekends...

But when I can pick the traitor, from the spy saying who was visited by coven on N2 in a PM game, while the rest of the town are scratching their heads over who it could possibly be, it makes me wonder whether players really understand the mechanics of the coven, and how they would be interacting with each other on a nightly basis.

Tracker wills also reveal a lot about a targets possible role, it confuses me why they stay silent for so long, just because their targets target didnt die (or get sus of a trapper claim that didnt visit n1 or n3)

I mean, theres a ton of good players as coven out there, and they can all put 2 and 2 together when theyre town..... if town speaks up and gives them the info (although as soon as players know you are good at being coven, they tend not to trust you when youre town lol)

[OreoNyan]

I’d like to see retri be allowed to be TT personally. That would add a whole new element of strategy to it. He could revive a townie to “prove” himself, but that increases votes against his team. He could wait until late game and revive maf, but town will get suspicious of a retri who doesn’t revive. If no one is willing to add it to the pool of potential traitors I agree it should be removed. Having 2 confirmed townies vs no one confirmed is completely different odds for the real TT.

[Amythyr]

Vet is much worse... lynch the coven, then every townie that can visit suicides on vet to stop any mislynches. Any visiting role that didnt suicide is traitor. then start lynching the non visiting roles...

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is actually pretty easy. If you have a competent town(and in most cases i do) it is very easy to find coven.

[Brilliand]

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is actually pretty easy. If you have a competent town(and in most cases i do) it is very easy to find coven.[/quote]

It shouldn't be, though. One of the core ideas of social deduction games is that figuring out who the evils is is hard. If it's easy to identify the evils, then the game is too easy for the Town.

[kyuss420]

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is actually pretty easy. If you have a competent town(and in most cases i do) it is very easy to find coven.

It shouldn't be, though. One of the core ideas of social deduction games is that figuring out who the evils is is hard. If it's easy to identify the evils, then the game is too easy for the Town.

Its quite easy to figure out who is town, when youre town. Then if theres a role list to check off, it gets even easier.. I mean, the TIs arent checking the jailor, to make sure the claim isnt lieing. No one is lynching/checking a sheriff if there isnt a counter claim and most players dont claim early when theyre evil, while a competent town will be spitting out their roles day 3 at the latest.

So Id have to say that the game is too easy for the town, when theres a ''competent'' town.. which is why I started scrolling for coven roles to start with... for a challenge.. and all that did was make me even more competent as a town role, because knowing what moves the coven has to make to win games, makes it much easier to counter them... but knowing what moves the town has to make to counter the coven plays, makes it easier to counter the counter plays. So I spend half my games countering the countering of countering the countering (thinking Im playing with competent players) and every noob is scratching their heads and calling to report me for gamethrow.. like yesterday when medusa got cranky because i didnt control the sheriff who said the PM was sus to them, to erase their will.... (cos that would make PM less sus -_-) cos idk... maybe a stoned doc would be much better???

TL/DR - game is easy for competent players, no one is finding it hard after a few thousand matches. Making it harder for those players, would make it impossible for newer players.

[JacksonVirgo]

Once Ret gets rebalanced and is less oppressive it'll most likely be back in the pool of traitors, because it won't be weirdly OP and UP at the same time
Removing Ret from TT just to put it back later is kinda pointless

Except in Coven TT, it'll be a second necromancer lel

[Amythyr]

"lynch the coven" that should be easier said than done...

It is actually pretty easy. If you have a competent town(and in most cases i do) it is very easy to find coven.

It shouldn't be, though. One of the core ideas of social deduction games is that figuring out who the evils is is hard. If it's easy to identify the evils, then the game is too easy for the Town.[/quote]

We can't blame bmg in that regard as easy/hard is dependent on how players play the game. 70% of evils can still be found by vote reading. In most C TT games i played end game is almost always a traitor hunt.

Tbh i dislike Vet more than any role in TT mode.

[Matty89190]

Tbh i dislike Vet more than any role in TT mode.

This 100%. A TT vet can be interesting, but the majority of vets are not TT and so the meta of all townies just suiciding into the vet to out the traitor emerges. It's just boring. Yes, the traitor-reliance meta is iffy, but at least a degree of skill could go into a traitor hunt.

[ChemicalKing]

Town traitor is basically a guaranteed win for town regardless.
Ret has nothing to do with it.

[Brilliand]

Town traitor is basically a guaranteed win for town regardless.

If this is true (which I doubt), then it just means the evils need to find a better meta than "let's all die real quick and force the Town to play a guessing game".

[kyuss420]

Town traitor is basically a guaranteed win for town regardless.

If this is true (which I doubt), then it just means the evils need to find a better meta than "let's all die real quick and force the Town to play a guessing game".

unfortunately, that kind of meta is the best chance most of those players have at winning when they roll coven. I mean, last TT week, in one game I spent 4 days in a 3v3 becuase the CL and PM had no idea how to break a doc/crus/BG TP chain, and refused to try anything I suggested cos ''that wouldnt work''.

Then they all tried VIP the following week, and failed dismally, I even had one guy lord his ranked ELO over me, because i chose to target a TP n2 instead of a sheriff who found the PM sus... (I wouldnt even target a sheriff that found me sus...)

So the problem is,(to put it in terms that ranked noobs will understand) anyone can play as town, cos they even have town in classic... so its like a gold ranked+ town vs bronze ranked coven in most games...