REMOVE TAUNTS

[kyuss420]

In game claims are different from taunts. The issue with taunts is that dead people can use them, and with coordination and maybe a bit of luck they can be used to pass on information that shouldn't be able to be passed on. Sure, someone can fake-claim crusader, but the crusader can't relay information from the dead chat to the living players.

and taunts only ''relay information from the dead chat'', if you believe thats what happened. If the dead couldnt use them, then the living wouldnt be able to use them to cause confusion

[KAKERMAN23]

why does it matter whether or not the living can cause confusion with them? It's not an intended mechanic to be used as a strategy, and the living have many other methods to cause confusion than taunts.

[Kyosji]

"I will taunt whoever comes up sus if I die!"

Mafia sees this

Sheriff doesn't get an sus when they die

Mafia taunts random person.


-OR-

Dead sheriff had a sus, but since maf saw the will, they all taunt multiple people


Taunting doesn't do much for you here.

[Superalex11]

"I will taunt whoever comes up sus if I die!"

Mafia sees this

Sheriff doesn't get an sus when they die

Mafia taunts random person.


-OR-

Dead sheriff had a sus, but since maf saw the will, they all taunt multiple people


Taunting doesn't do much for you here.

Congrats, you managed to find one scenario where taunt use is maybe a net neutral play. Now consider a similar scenario where the sheriff would taunt the specific person listed in their will. Or where they specify exactly who they'll taunt if the result is inno. Or where they specify numbers for any number of results (e.g. being rb'd). Or where maf simply don't have taunts to use because they aren't free. Or where the sheriff specifies a specific taunt he'll use (e.g. fireworks) and the mafia don't have that exact taunt.

OR (get this), any of the other scenarios not related to a sheriff's night result.

As I've been trying to make clear to kyuss, the problem with taunts is that on average they do give an advantage. No, this doesn't mean that every time a taunt is used it's used truthfully and then followed. No, this doesn't mean that every game has taunts used and evils hanged as a result.
This means that on average we can expect a taunt's truthful use (given that it is used) to be advantageous to the user all else equal.

[Kyosji]

"I will taunt whoever comes up sus if I die!"

Mafia sees this

Sheriff doesn't get an sus when they die

Mafia taunts random person.


-OR-

Dead sheriff had a sus, but since maf saw the will, they all taunt multiple people


Taunting doesn't do much for you here.

Congrats, you managed to find one scenario where taunt use is maybe a net neutral play. Now consider a similar scenario where the sheriff would taunt the specific person listed in their will. Or where they specify exactly who they'll taunt if the result is inno. Or where they specify numbers for any number of results (e.g. being rb'd). Or where maf simply don't have taunts to use because they aren't free. Or where the sheriff specifies a specific taunt he'll use (e.g. fireworks) and the mafia don't have that exact taunt.

OR (get this), any of the other scenarios not related to a sheriff's night result.

As I've been trying to make clear to kyuss, the problem with taunts is that on average they do give an advantage. No, this doesn't mean that every time a taunt is used it's used truthfully and then followed. No, this doesn't mean that every game has taunts used and evils hanged as a result.
This means that on average we can expect a taunt's truthful use (given that it is used) to be advantageous to the user all else equal.

I did go over that scenario. If a Sheriff says "If the guy on my will is sus and I die, I'll Taunt", well literally ANYONE in the game can taunt that guy inno or not, making that method moot. Since sheriff really wouldn't know if he's sus or inno to begin with, someone could frame, or just be an ass, but taunting the guy inno or not. Your "advantage" is far more a disadvantage because trolls and evils could screw with it far more than a good can. Your use of the phrase "on average" really has no bases here, as there is far more people available to use it maliciously than there is for someone to use it for good.

Also, taunts are free. You have a decent chance every 7 days of getting them, or use the merit points you get for just playing to buy them. It's literally the only thing I can spend my merit points on now. I've never used my merit points to buy taunts in this game, and I have literally hundreds just from cauldron rewards. Your basis that they aren't free just means you haven't played the game enough yet.

[KAKERMAN23]

It's true that taunts will often be used to deceive and mislead people, especially after someone says they'll use them to share info. However, the problem is that they can be used to share information that shouldn't otherwise be available. There are situations where people won't use taunts to mislead and deceive, but will use it to spread information. There will be situations where people will interpret the taunt as someone trying to share information, and will use that taunt to their advantage. Taunts aren't meant to be used in strategy at all; they're meant to be used as a cosmetic item.

[Transcender]

honestly taunts have the same issue that retri and medium have, as alive should NEVER be able to interact with dead.

[Superalex11]

Your use of the phrase "on average" really has no bases here, as there is far more people available to use it maliciously than there is for someone to use it for good.

You know what, I'll let you take this then. Let's assume my claim is wrong, and that the average is disadvantageous (it isn't, because people do use taunts truthfully, but let's go with this for the sake of the argument). That's ok, because it's actually a stronger claim than is necessary to make my point.

The minimum sufficient claim is only that taunts can have advantageous use. Because if they can, then there exist scenarios where people are communicating in ways which are unfair.

Of course, they do have advantageous use (again, if they didn't, people simply wouldn't use them, yet they do), and thus there exist some games in which an unfairness is being exploited. This is a problem.

Also, taunts are free.

The 200 MP cost shown in the shop demonstrates this statement to be a lie. It would be absurd to include giveaways (e.g. cauldron) because of the rarity therein, as well as the fact that we would then have to include everything in the game which can be obtained via these giveaways as free. Nobody is saying taunts can't be obtained for free (much like nobody ever says they can't get any skins for free). But to say the taunts themselves are free is to lie.

Your basis that they aren't free just means you haven't played the game enough yet.

I play between 3-10 matches daily and have been doing so for something like a year now. I use taunts maybe once a week (so, averaging 1 taunt every 40 or so games). Excluding the 10 frogs I bought upon their becoming available for MP, the only taunts I currently own are 5 gravestones. Taunts are not free. Taunts are given out very rarely.

[Kyosji]

Your use of the phrase "on average" really has no bases here, as there is far more people available to use it maliciously than there is for someone to use it for good.

You know what, I'll let you take this then. Let's assume my claim is wrong, and that the average is disadvantageous (it isn't, because people do use taunts truthfully, but let's go with this for the sake of the argument). That's ok, because it's actually a stronger claim than is necessary to make my point.

The minimum sufficient claim is only that taunts can have advantageous use. Because if they can, then there exist scenarios where people are communicating in ways which are unfair.

Of course, they do have advantageous use (again, if they didn't, people simply wouldn't use them, yet they do), and thus there exist some games in which an unfairness is being exploited. This is a problem.

Also, taunts are free.

The 200 MP cost shown in the shop demonstrates this statement to be a lie. It would be absurd to include giveaways (e.g. cauldron) because of the rarity therein, as well as the fact that we would then have to include everything in the game which can be obtained via these giveaways as free. Nobody is saying taunts can't be obtained for free (much like nobody ever says they can't get any skins for free). But to say the taunts themselves are free is to lie.

Your basis that they aren't free just means you haven't played the game enough yet.

I play between 3-10 matches daily and have been doing so for something like a year now. I use taunts maybe once a week (so, averaging 1 taunt every 40 or so games). Excluding the 10 frogs I bought upon their becoming available for MP, the only taunts I currently own are 5 gravestones. Taunts are not free. Taunts are given out very rarely.

I stated this because there are 15 townies. You're basing your assumption that no one will, or at least most will not, use the taunt on your target after you die. If you're going for number averages, depending on game mode, up to half the town would rather actively mess with your result and taunt using this method, then you have to factor in trolls that will do it just for the sake of chaos and confusion. We all know that trolls are in the game, there's nothign you can do about it. That's why I said your "on average" statement had no basis, because it's simply false.

Your definition of free differs than most I guess. Did you pay for your MP? Or did you get it by casually playing? If you didn't put in actual monetary value into your merit points, and you got it casually playing, it's free. You get MP for almost anything. Even visiting the cauldron every day gives you like 60. As for the amount of taunts you have, it sounds to me that maybe you haven't collected all the skins/maps/pets/houses yet, so your pool of things to grab from is rather large. I have hundreds, mainly cause what the game can give me is limited to scrolls, taunts, and the occasional massive rewards of hundreds of town points and thousands of merit points, which again, is free taunts if you want to go that route. If BMG wanted to, they could pay you in taunts instead of merit points, but they do it this way to give everyone an option on how to spend their points to get what THEY want.

3.

[Superalex11]

If BMG wanted to, they could pay you in taunts instead of merit points, but they do it this way to give everyone an option on how to spend their points to get what THEY want.

Right, and the fact that, as a result, some people have access to taunts (as they function now) and others don't due to these factors external to any particular game in which a taunt is used is a problem.


Again:

Individual matches should be self-contained, and should not rely on out-of-game bases for in-game mechanics - especially from a competitive standpoint.

Of course there may be exceptions, depending on the devs' goals. But a simple store-bought item which gives unfair communicative ability in a fundamentally communication-based game is not one of these exceptions.

[Kyosji]

I'm sorry, I'm trying to think with your reasoning on this, and with my experiences I just can't get there.

[kyuss420]

why does it matter whether or not the living can cause confusion with them? It's not an intended mechanic to be used as a strategy, and the living have many other methods to cause confusion than taunts.

Where is the quote from the devs stating ''its not an intended mechanic to be used as a strategy''?


Also idk what games you guys are playing in, (seems to be the hours when all the noobs are on), but I see a lot of taunts in games, and people just dont get lynched because of them alone.

I have never seen a sherrif will with ''I will taunt X player if theyre sus and I die!'', let alone ''I will use the firework taunt on player 15, if the last guy i checked was sus!''. I have never seen it in 10000+ matches, yet you acting like it happens every match???

[Superalex11]

I have never seen a sherrif will with ''I will taunt X player if theyre sus and I die!'', let alone ''I will use the firework taunt on player 15, if the last guy i checked was sus!''. I have never seen it in 10000+ matches, yet you acting like it happens every match???

Continuing to lie will get this discussion nowhere.

[orangeandblack5]

Furthermore

Something not happening often or to you does not mean it's not an issue

[kyuss420]

I have never seen a sherrif will with ''I will taunt X player if theyre sus and I die!'', let alone ''I will use the firework taunt on player 15, if the last guy i checked was sus!''. I have never seen it in 10000+ matches, yet you acting like it happens every match???

Continuing to lie will get this discussion nowhere.

Its true, i have never seen it in game. Calling me a liar, is a fairly schoolyard attempt at disproving my valid opinion.

Furthermore, just finished 10 matches, used 3 taunts per match on random people. Not a single person was lynched, 1 was voted up, gave role and will and was innoed.

As I said, a dumbass is gonna be a dumbass with or without taunts. The only advantage they give, is if youre smart enough to use them at the right time, and town is dumb enough to follow it.

[KAKERMAN23]

No matter how rare it is, the fact is that it can happen. That's the problem. As long as it's a situation that's possible, we should treat it like so, and stop acting like it doesn't matter because the situation is rare.

[kyuss420]

No matter how rare it is, the fact is that it can happen. That's the problem. As long as it's a situation that's possible, we should treat it like so, and stop acting like it doesn't matter because the situation is rare.

But even if that situation did occur, of course an evil player is going to taunt the player in the sheriffs will, why wouldnt they? Its a stupid tactic, leaving town wide open for a mislynch more often than not

[orangeandblack5]

The entire problem is that this requires having taunts before the game began

You and I might be able to make sure of that, but you're fooling yourself if you think the same applies to every player of the game. It's not intuitive, it's not fixable in-game, and in Ranked in particular it clearly does not belong.

[MysticMismagius]

but didn't they make sure that it was accessible to everyone by making it worth MP?
And it's cheap too, any player with a decent play count will have 200 coins laying around

[Kyosji]

I have never seen a sherrif will with ''I will taunt X player if theyre sus and I die!'', let alone ''I will use the firework taunt on player 15, if the last guy i checked was sus!''. I have never seen it in 10000+ matches, yet you acting like it happens every match???

Continuing to lie will get this discussion nowhere.

I have been playing this game for 5+ years and never seen that tactic. For the hell of it I tried it yesterday, and when I died someone else taunted the inno target I checked. I thought "Shit, poor guy" but then no one even considered him or spoke him up the next day

[Kyosji]

but didn't they make sure that it was accessible to everyone by making it worth MP?
And it's cheap too, any player with a decent play count will have 200 coins laying around

He considers it still not free as you have to 'buy' the taunts, even though the coins are basically free and easily collected with no effort.

[removetaunts]

Yeah guys, if you never seen someone using taunts, then we can surely say that noone uses taunts yeah... Pure logic. I dont know you have a high elo; but, in my elo, people CARE about taunts.

Also, it is such a shame to see that they did not remove taunts in this update. I suppose they need money so hard...

[Kyosji]

Yeah guys, if you never seen someone using taunts, then we can surely say that noone uses taunts yeah... Pure logic. I dont know you have a high elo; but, in my elo, people CARE about taunts.

Also, it is such a shame to see that they did not remove taunts in this update. I suppose they need money so hard...

That's not what was said, but considering it looks like you created an account just for the sake of bashing taunts, that doesn't matter to you.

[removetaunts]

Yeah guys, if you never seen someone using taunts, then we can surely say that noone uses taunts yeah... Pure logic. I dont know you have a high elo; but, in my elo, people CARE about taunts.

Also, it is such a shame to see that they did not remove taunts in this update. I suppose they need money so hard...

That's not what was said, but considering it looks like you created an account just for the sake of bashing taunts, that doesn't matter to you.

Why the HELL are you obsessed with my account name?

I am a player of this game from loong ago and I forgot my forum username and password. Since I wanted to create a topic about this matter, I named it that way. As far as I do not name my account with something offensive, it's noone's business.

Also, It was definetely what was said.

[Kyosji]

Welp, guess you're one sided on this opinion on yours and chose not to hear others. I'm not wasting time on this. I went ahead and reported it cause this is just feels like a troll now. Admins can decide upon it. I'm done.