Balance Discussions Part 2

[Brilliand]

why doesn't he just change the topic in the big balance thread to not unnecessarily clog up the forums with these posts? it doesn't really seem necessary to make a new topic for each issue.

Sure it does. This thread is big and cluttered enough as it is; having multiple threads helps organize it.

The sad part (to me) is that there's an entire subforum with hundreds of threads dedicated to this topic (well, this topic and invention of new content), and he isn't using that subforum.

[MysticMismagius]

So, Soulshade55r's small rant about Coven's future belongs here more than it does in the neo-Ret thread, so I'mma respond to it here.

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with Coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP KPN based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up, I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds KPN to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now. holy run-on sentences, batman

- Precisely which Coven roles "don't work"? The only one I have particular quarrel with is Poisoner, but that role is underpowered rather than OP.
- Coven's KPN can be an issue, but I feel like that's less of a problem with any particular Coven role being overpowered, but the logical consequences of the faction lacking a "factional kill." Every Coven role needs to be able to kill with some degree of consistency, so that you don't end up in unwinnable situations, but when you have one role (the Necronomicon holder) who can consistently kill, and 1-3 other roles that can sometimes kill, it can become a clusterfuck.
- However, the fact that Coven doesn't have a faction kill is kind of the draw of the faction. Either creating a factional kill, or nerfing all the Coven so hard that they can only ever kill with the Necronomicon (which would be a factional-kill-lite) would kill the uniqueness of the Coven and just make it like a second Mafia. So, while it can be nerfed to some degree, it'd be better that we live with the Coven having a >1 KPN on most occasions as a counterbalance to its lower amount of deception and support roles.

- The more chaotic Neutral roles not being in Coven Ranked has more to do with the Ranked role list than the roles themselves. No one wants NC in Ranked, because Vampires are there, and Neutral Benign is apparently coming back so GA's coming with it.
- Ambusher is not a bad role in the context of cooexisting with Coven. I've touched on this in a previous post: Ambusher only adds one extra kill per night to the Mafia, and not even consistently, as it has to predict people to get that kill. You could make an argument that the extra kill could be too much for Classic, but when looking at Mafia competing with Coven, it's not even close.
- I agree with you wholeheartedly on Psychic, but not so much on Crusader. Crusader is actually quite nice in that it discourages all the TP from just dog-piling a power role in non-Werewolf games. There could be a Crusader among the TP, after all, so the others could get killed for their trouble. But if there is no Crusader and you avoid the power role in fear of one, scum has an opening. (This is less effective in a lot of the Coven role lists, where a Crusader is guaranteed, since you can just tell the Crusader who you know exists to go on the power role and have other TPs protect the Crusader. But that's a role list problem, not a Crusader problem)

EDIT:

(roles like posioner become a problem and are either really amazing adding a extra kill each night or not good because of doctor existing).

Nah, Poisoner's just bad.
There are occasions, notably prior to Night 3 or when Poisoner holds the Necronomicon, where the Poisoner is the only role that can kill, and this puts all the problems with Poisoner on blast.
-Delayed kill can fuck the Coven sideways when something crops up that the Coven has to kill ASAP: Getting through a TP to kill them takes four nights instead of two (poison the TP, wait for TP to die, poison the power role, wait for the power role to die), and if there is no TP, killing them directly takes 2 nights instead of 1. This gives that power role plenty of time to fuck up Coven's day.
- As mentioned, when the Doctor exists, Poisoner has a bad time
- If the Doctor doesn't exist (or you already killed him, as you should when you have a Poisoner), the Necronomicon does absolutely fucking nothing while all the other roles get sweet perks.

[Soulshade55r]

So, Soulshade55r's small rant about Coven's future belongs here more than it does in the neo-Ret thread, so I'mma respond to it here.

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with Coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP KPN based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up, I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds KPN to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now. holy run-on sentences, batman

- Precisely which Coven roles "don't work"? The only one I have particular quarrel with is Poisoner, but that role is underpowered rather than OP.
- Coven's KPN can be an issue, but I feel like that's less of a problem with any particular Coven role being overpowered, but the logical consequences of the faction lacking a "factional kill." Every Coven role needs to be able to kill with some degree of consistency, so that you don't end up in unwinnable situations, but when you have one role (the Necronomicon holder) who can consistently kill, and 1-3 other roles that can sometimes kill, it can become a clusterfuck.
- However, the fact that Coven doesn't have a faction kill is kind of the draw of the faction. Either creating a factional kill, or nerfing all the Coven so hard that they can only ever kill with the Necronomicon (which would be a factional-kill-lite) would kill the uniqueness of the Coven and just make it like a second Mafia. So, while it can be nerfed to some degree, it'd be better that we live with the Coven having a >1 KPN on most occasions as a counterbalance to its lower amount of deception and support roles.

- The more chaotic Neutral roles not being in Coven Ranked has more to do with the Ranked role list than the roles themselves. No one wants NC in Ranked, because Vampires are there, and Neutral Benign is apparently coming back so GA's coming with it.
- Ambusher is not a bad role in the context of cooexisting with Coven. I've touched on this in a previous post: Ambusher only adds one extra kill per night to the Mafia, and not even consistently, as it has to predict people to get that kill. You could make an argument that the extra kill could be too much for Classic, but when looking at Mafia competing with Coven, it's not even close.
- I agree with you wholeheartedly on Psychic, but not so much on Crusader. Crusader is actually quite nice in that it discourages all the TP from just dog-piling a power role in non-Werewolf games. There could be a Crusader among the TP, after all, so the others could get killed for their trouble. But if there is no Crusader and you avoid the power role in fear of one, scum has an opening. (This is less effective in a lot of the Coven role lists, where a Crusader is guaranteed, since you can just tell the Crusader who you know exists to go on the power role and have other TPs protect the Crusader. But that's a role list problem, not a Crusader problem)

-Alright biggest problem roles for me are Hex master and Poisoner, poisoner being a inconsistent op or up depending on doctor games, I really dislike how this role works in general it's just a bland timed killer, Hex master has a whole bunch of problems being a perma framer that sweeps late game, people sleep on this role quite a lot but this role if played right just invalidates late games, Medusa in general is kinda meh for me I honestly don't mind it that much because normally it doesn't hurt games too much and is a way for CL to get early kills Necromancer, Pm and CL are pretty solid roles, Necromancer getting the ti buff is good, also The necronomicon this the consistent way coven kills taking only two nights and the first two in general CL will use medusa covens KPN generally fluctuates too much for my liking. I'd honestly like to know why you think poisoner is UP in non-doctor games.
-My problem with amby is that I believe mafia should generally only have 1KPN bringing it up to 2 (well a inconsistent 2) is sort of bad for me also being outed by mediums/(retri to be changed) in general makes it inconsistent to play, I'd personally like to see amby have 3 uses but not be outed if spotted or at least I think that's in general a good start, I think a role that discourages obvious tp placement or dull spam protect on someone who is mayor or jailor is healthy for the game, so I'll give amby some credit there.
-Crus somewhat ends up just killing town a lot of the time it's a very counter productive role that just leads to town getting randomly killed because crus doesn't normally like being on obvious targets such as mayor or jailor ect. also crus (like amby) has a random kill priority I wish that was changed. I'd personally like this see crus become similar to marshal but marshal has it's own problems so I wouldn't know how to make it "better" I also don't like the fact 3 out of the 4 tp roles are killers trapper is an alright role from what I remember (I haven't been trapper in ages).
-Slight touch on GA and other nbs: I personally wouldn't want NB back in ranked myself And I love all the nb roles despite there flaws and swing factor from a enjoyment perspective my problem with GA is that they don't get a choice unlike other nbs but if they did I would see them just going for jailor or other confirmed roles. also making there target immune to voting (pretty sure it ignores jails aswell). Just seems really OP at least to me it does. Being lynch immune shouldn't really be a thing. I wouldn't know how to go about "fixing" ga I like it as a fun role but it feels way too unbalanced.

In general I feel like a lot of coven games can get messy and end way faster


EDIT.
Sorry didn't realise you made an edit about my comment on the poisoner ANYWAY.
i Actually agree with your point that poisoners necro benefit becomes useless without doctor but thats a big if honestly, I still think the extra consistent posion kill is really good on non-doctor games while poisoner randomly getting the necronomicion just randomly screws over the coven we can both at least agree that poisoner has quite a few problems.

[MysticMismagius]

So, Soulshade55r's small rant about Coven's future belongs here more than it does in the neo-Ret thread, so I'mma respond to it here.

small rant about covens future:
I actually would like to see coven get some work to it, I think we should focus and be productive about base game roles first at least (Coming up with ideas and suggestions as a community). Problem with Coven is the insane KPN they have they have really OP KPN based roles compared to anything mafia has, I really like covens idea an alternate faction to spice things up, I just think a lot of the actual coven roles don't work some like necromancer and potion master could actually work if tweaked ect. They also have a few problematic town roles like crus and psychic I could easily see crus become similar to marshal but psychic is a heavily dependent rng role. In terms of neutrals a lot of the more chaotic ones don't show in ranked. (Pirate, ga ect). With mafia ambusher is a bad role that adds KPN to mafia but hypnotist is actually a really interesting deception role, biggest problem as a very small playerbase despite quite a lot of players owning it (from what I know). In general I really hope coven does get looked into after the base game has some work I know a lot of people are quick to jump on to "coven is a waste of time to work on" but I would really disagree about that, I just don't think it would be a good priority for now. holy run-on sentences, batman

- Precisely which Coven roles "don't work"? The only one I have particular quarrel with is Poisoner, but that role is underpowered rather than OP.
- Coven's KPN can be an issue, but I feel like that's less of a problem with any particular Coven role being overpowered, but the logical consequences of the faction lacking a "factional kill." Every Coven role needs to be able to kill with some degree of consistency, so that you don't end up in unwinnable situations, but when you have one role (the Necronomicon holder) who can consistently kill, and 1-3 other roles that can sometimes kill, it can become a clusterfuck.
- However, the fact that Coven doesn't have a faction kill is kind of the draw of the faction. Either creating a factional kill, or nerfing all the Coven so hard that they can only ever kill with the Necronomicon (which would be a factional-kill-lite) would kill the uniqueness of the Coven and just make it like a second Mafia. So, while it can be nerfed to some degree, it'd be better that we live with the Coven having a >1 KPN on most occasions as a counterbalance to its lower amount of deception and support roles.

- The more chaotic Neutral roles not being in Coven Ranked has more to do with the Ranked role list than the roles themselves. No one wants NC in Ranked, because Vampires are there, and Neutral Benign is apparently coming back so GA's coming with it.
- Ambusher is not a bad role in the context of cooexisting with Coven. I've touched on this in a previous post: Ambusher only adds one extra kill per night to the Mafia, and not even consistently, as it has to predict people to get that kill. You could make an argument that the extra kill could be too much for Classic, but when looking at Mafia competing with Coven, it's not even close.
- I agree with you wholeheartedly on Psychic, but not so much on Crusader. Crusader is actually quite nice in that it discourages all the TP from just dog-piling a power role in non-Werewolf games. There could be a Crusader among the TP, after all, so the others could get killed for their trouble. But if there is no Crusader and you avoid the power role in fear of one, scum has an opening. (This is less effective in a lot of the Coven role lists, where a Crusader is guaranteed, since you can just tell the Crusader who you know exists to go on the power role and have other TPs protect the Crusader. But that's a role list problem, not a Crusader problem)

-Alright biggest problem roles for me are Hex master and Poisoner, poisoner being a inconsistent op or up depending on doctor games, I really dislike how this role works in general it's just a bland timed killer, Hex master has a whole bunch of problems being a perma framer that sweeps late game, people sleep on this role quite a lot but this role if played right just invalidates late games, Medusa in general is kinda meh for me I honestly don't mind it that much because normally it doesn't hurt games too much and is a way for CL to get early kills Necromancer, Pm and CL are pretty solid roles, Necromancer getting the ti buff is good, also The necronomicon this the consistent way coven kills taking only two nights and the first two in general CL will use medusa covens KPN generally fluctuates too much for my liking. I'd honestly like to know why you think poisoner is UP in non-doctor games.
-My problem with amby is that I believe mafia should generally only have 1KPN bringing it up to 2 (well a inconsistent 2) is sort of bad for me also being outed by mediums/(retri to be changed) in general makes it inconsistent to play, I'd personally like to see amby have 3 uses but not be outed if spotted or at least I think that's in general a good start, I think a role that discourages obvious tp placement or dull spam protect on someone who is mayor or jailor is healthy for the game, so I'll give amby some credit there.
-Crus somewhat ends up just killing town a lot of the time it's a very counter productive role that just leads to town getting randomly killed because crus doesn't normally like being on obvious targets such as mayor or jailor ect. also crus (like amby) has a random kill priority I wish that was changed. I'd personally like this see crus become similar to marshal but marshal has it's own problems so I wouldn't know how to make it "better" I also don't like the fact 3 out of the 4 tp roles are killers trapper is an alright role from what I remember (I haven't been trapper in ages).
-Slight touch on GA and other nbs: I personally wouldn't want NB back in ranked myself And I love all the nb roles despite there flaws and swing factor from a enjoyment perspective my problem with GA is that they don't get a choice unlike other nbs but if they did I would see them just going for jailor or other confirmed roles. also making there target immune to voting (pretty sure it ignores jails aswell). Just seems really OP at least to me it does. Being lynch immune shouldn't really be a thing. I wouldn't know how to go about "fixing" ga I like it as a fun role but it feels way too unbalanced.

In general I feel like a lot of coven games can get messy and end way faster

-Agreed on Poisoner, although like I said in my edit, Poisoner is not "inconsistent OP or UP depending on doctor games," it's just bad. HM is a lot better with the Necronomicon than without, to the point where it's kinda swingy (Astral kills and not having to worry as much about immunes is a godsend). This is the "inconsistent OP or UP" role, depending on whether or not it has the book. Although that might be the point with this role: very powerful with the book, weak and reliant on its teammates without it. Medusa's honestly fine, its only real problem is that if you don't have a Coven Leader it's hard to put work in without getting yourself killed one way or another until you get the book, and Medusa's last in line to get it despite being very good with it. But in most lists that aren't All Any, you will have a Coven Leader so that's not an absolutely urgent priority. And yes, oh yes, gimme that sweet sweet TI buff

- An inconsistent cap of 2, in a world where literally every other faction except Vampires, including the Town, has a much higher KPN. Ambusher's really not that bad. On the topic of that fucking message, I do agree that it needs to be banished to the deepest pits of Hell, but I do not agree that Ambusher needs to be turned into a role with limited charges in exchange. Just removing the message, with no other changes, will suffice.

- Crusader just killing random townies is because that Town is dumb as bricks and tries to treat it like any other Town Protective role. In a smart Town, Crusader does exactly as I've described: encourage other TPs not to dogpile the Jailor or Mayor because Crus might exist and doing that would fuck up Town's day if he does. Full agree on the random kill priority though. It's stupid and just ends up in games where you win or lose because the Crusader happened to kill the right or the wrong person.
Additionally, don't try to make Crusader like Marshal, please. If you want Marshal in the game, that's fine, but then just add Marshal directly rather than trying to absorb another role to put it in.
-Trapper's a buggy mess. But I suppose you're right when it works the way it's supposed to.

- GA's an odd case. I honestly think that making it lynch-immune twice per game is interesting, as it gives GA a way to handle targets who are scum, unlucky, or have a few brain cells shy of the rest of the Town. It's a little powerful, but ultimately, it's powerful because it kinda has to be. The role is entirely dependent on wrangling a teammate who could have any role, skill level, and other circumstances. It's impossible to balance.

- Yes, Coven games are generally faster-paced than Classic ones, but is that really a problem? It seems more like a neutral difference where preference comes down to personal taste to me.

[MysticMismagius]

EDIT.
Sorry didn't realise you made an edit about my comment on the poisoner ANYWAY.
i Actually agree with your point that poisoners necro benefit becomes useless without doctor but thats a big if honestly, I still think the extra consistent posion kill is really good on non-doctor games while poisoner randomly getting the necronomicion just randomly screws over the coven we can both at least agree that poisoner has quite a few problems.

It's not a big if
you just kill the doc, which you should be doing anyways, and badda bing badda boom
useless necronomicon while everyone else has a hell of a time getting a kill if they can at all
It's only "extra" if Poisoner is not the only killing role, which it very well can be
As the role that's designed to be the main consistent killing role of the Coven, it should at least do that job decently, which it doesn't

[Soulshade55r]

EDIT.
Sorry didn't realise you made an edit about my comment on the poisoner ANYWAY.
i Actually agree with your point that poisoners necro benefit becomes useless without doctor but thats a big if honestly, I still think the extra consistent posion kill is really good on non-doctor games while poisoner randomly getting the necronomicion just randomly screws over the coven we can both at least agree that poisoner has quite a few problems.

It's not a big if
you just kill the doc, which you should be doing anyways, and badda bing badda boom
It's only "extra" if Poisoner is not the only killing role, which it very well can be
As the role that's designed to be the main consistent killing role of the Coven, it should at least do that job decently, which it doesn't

I meant the big if being posioner randomly getting necro over the other members, to a certain degree doc should be a early game priority on poisoner games. The buff is super lame and I'll give you that at least but non-necro poisoner is still really strong to me considering another coven has the necro.

My main issue with poisoner that it's either really UP or OP depending on factors like if there's a doctor and if they get necro. The role could do some work honestly but I'd strongly disagree that normal base poisoner (with no doctor) is a really weak role in comparison to other coven members

[MysticMismagius]

EDIT.
Sorry didn't realise you made an edit about my comment on the poisoner ANYWAY.
i Actually agree with your point that poisoners necro benefit becomes useless without doctor but thats a big if honestly, I still think the extra consistent posion kill is really good on non-doctor games while poisoner randomly getting the necronomicion just randomly screws over the coven we can both at least agree that poisoner has quite a few problems.

It's not a big if
you just kill the doc, which you should be doing anyways, and badda bing badda boom
It's only "extra" if Poisoner is not the only killing role, which it very well can be
As the role that's designed to be the main consistent killing role of the Coven, it should at least do that job decently, which it doesn't

I meant the big if being posioner randomly getting necro over the other members, to a certain degree doc should be a early game priority on poisoner games. The buff is super lame and I'll give you that at least but non-necro poisoner is still really strong to me considering another coven has the necro.

My main issue with poisoner that it's either really UP or OP depending on factors like if there's a doctor and if they get necro. The role could do some work honestly but I'd strongly disagree that normal base poisoner (with no doctor) is a really weak role in comparison to other coven members

The fact that another role has the book if Poisoner doesn't doesn't mean that Poisoner is OP without it, especially since it's near the front of the line as far as Necronomicon priority order. I'm looking at the roles on their own merit, not in conjunction with other roles, when judging a role. This is why I don't view base Medusa as particularly powerful despite it being the bee's knees with a CL. And on its own merits, delayed kills are pretty bad even in games without their counter.
Since we agree that Poisoner needs work, I'm gonna stop here when it comes to Poisoner.

[Brilliand]

The fact that another role has the book if Poisoner doesn't doesn't mean that Poisoner is OP without it

You've gotta take into account that a "Poisoner without Necronomicon" can only exist if another Coven role is present who does have it, or for the first 2 nights of the game.

Only evaluating "Poisoner without Necronomicon" for games where another Coven role is holding the Necronomicon is like only evaluating Vampire Hunter for games where a Vampire exists - i.e. pretty much necessary.

[MysticMismagius]

Fair enough, but Poisoner itself is not OP because of the things Soulshader listed. The elements on their list are facets of the high KPN created by Coven lacking a factional kill and the things you need to do to make that not an unwinnable situation for Coven, not a facet of Poisoner in and of itself. The "OP" things have nothing to do with Poisoner itself, and that's why I object to Soulshader concluding that Poisoner without the book is OP because of them
In fact if someone else (likely CL as it is either the only role or one of the two roles that can have the book before Poisoner outside of Amne nonsense, I don't remember exactly which) has the Necronomicon, Poisoner is one of the worst teammates the main killer can have
Potion Master has a consistent 1/3 KPN, and on the other two nights it can protect Coven roles or help prioritize targets with it's investigative potion (also it's kill can be activated immediately rather than having to wait a night for poison to do its thing)
Medusa can bait out townies or sacrifice itself in return for killing an immune role that CL can't kill
Necromancer is weird and situational, but with the TI buff it will have more things it can do to make the life of it's Necrononicon-holding ally easier. Even without it, it can fakeclaim Vigi, kill enemy killers with a BG/Crusader, use NKs, waste the dead GA's charges, and more
HM is worse but at least it can do something against immunes, marking them for death with the end-game nuke

[Brilliand]

Poisoner without the book and without a Doctor has a consistent 1.0 KPN, which is... a bit much, when compared with the Potion Master without the book. (Granted it's a delayed kill, so it's more like an Arsonist KPN, but that's still much more than 1/3.)

Of course, the "without a Doctor" qualification means that "OP" isn't the right term. Soulshader called it "either really UP or OP depending on factors", which means... "swingy".

[Soulshade55r]

Poisoner without the book and without a Doctor has a consistent 1.0 KPN, which is... a bit much, when compared with the Potion Master without the book. (Granted it's a delayed kill, so it's more like an Arsonist KPN, but that's still much more than 1/3.)

Of course, the "without a Doctor" qualification means that "OP" isn't the right term. Soulshader called it "either really UP or OP depending on factors", which means... "swingy".

Exactly, poisoner just is swingy depending on if two factors are in effect or not being that there's no doctor and they don't possess the necro

I don't think coven having more of a inconsistent KPN is too bad in general which I think Pm and necromancer show well getting extra kills on the side is fine but when it's every night it becomes problematic for me at least Medusa how it's designed I'm kind of iffy on on the one hand it's normally fine from games I've played but theres those few games where like 3 or 4 people die to it n1 and the game becomes over, I guess that can apply to veteran a lot of the time (especially if you are good at baiting). In general games should be around 6-8 days for me I dislike it when they end too early sometimes games feel like your less in control of what happens in coven and it becomes more about night actions then reading or making good plays during the day.

Hex Master is literally framer but infinite times better, with perma frames and all hexed players getting killed at the end, people sleep on how effective this role game be of course Spy can ruin the frame part but spies are a lot more rare in coven games due to two extra Tis.

I think I've said why coven isn't the "best" balance wise I don't think they need to be a clone of mafia that would make it boring and less intresting but there can be things to be done to balance the roles and make the KPN slightly lower at times without making it over powered, I'm personally not a fan of "remove role".

Of course I still think base games roles are more important to make improvements too because it effects coven aswell

[kyuss420]

EDIT.
Sorry didn't realise you made an edit about my comment on the poisoner ANYWAY.
i Actually agree with your point that poisoners necro benefit becomes useless without doctor but thats a big if honestly, I still think the extra consistent posion kill is really good on non-doctor games while poisoner randomly getting the necronomicion just randomly screws over the coven we can both at least agree that poisoner has quite a few problems.

It's not a big if
you just kill the doc, which you should be doing anyways, and badda bing badda boom
It's only "extra" if Poisoner is not the only killing role, which it very well can be
As the role that's designed to be the main consistent killing role of the Coven, it should at least do that job decently, which it doesn't

I meant the big if being posioner randomly getting necro over the other members, to a certain degree doc should be a early game priority on poisoner games. The buff is super lame and I'll give you that at least but non-necro poisoner is still really strong to me considering another coven has the necro.

My main issue with poisoner that it's either really UP or OP depending on factors like if there's a doctor and if they get necro. The role could do some work honestly but I'd strongly disagree that normal base poisoner (with no doctor) is a really weak role in comparison to other coven members

The fact that another role has the book if Poisoner doesn't doesn't mean that Poisoner is OP without it, especially since it's near the front of the line as far as Necronomicon priority order. I'm looking at the roles on their own merit, not in conjunction with other roles, when judging a role. This is why I don't view base Medusa as particularly powerful despite it being the bee's knees with a CL. And on its own merits, delayed kills are pretty bad even in games without their counter.
Since we agree that Poisoner needs work, I'm gonna stop here when it comes to Poisoner.

Pretty much what mystic said.

Yes the coven roles are underpowered without the book, much like maf roles are ''underpowered'' til they get promoted. Theres nothing much wrong with the coven, and how they interact together as a unit. KPNs arent really an issue, try playing a CL and Necro game in AA and see how slow you start I mean most games, with a full coven, the coven are lucky to get 3 kills every 2 nights, then throw a crus/trapper and a psychic into the game, and watch the towns KPN ratio grow. Then add a bunch of AA killers and immune targets, and watch covens KPN drop. I wouldnt do anything to limit covens KPNs without nerfing the town hard first (which isnt needed either IMO)

yes, coven are stronger than maf, but the town in the expansion, is also stronger than a classic town.

CL - perfect as is. High priority night ability, can counter a lot of plays of both town and nuetral killers, can break TP chains easily, RB immune, gains basic defence and is sheriff immune n3+ Best role in the game IMO, even running solo in AA, still has a good chance of winning.
Hex Master - pretty much perfect as is. I pray for Hex Master games, as an RC it outweighs both poisoner and necro, when it gets the book. If you communicate as a faction, and all kills go to plan, can get a hex bomb off n5-6, still has a decent chance at winning when running solo in AA, altho its invest result really sucks.
Necro - will be much better with the upcoming patch, providing a little more support to the coven, instead of doing nothing until the CL dies (would still prefer a HM if the CL is dead tho - unless its an escort game) as a solo role, its a very slow starter, arguably better than HM in a solo AA game, depends on a lot of factors (mainly what other roles were spawned), so I would say they are both on par with each other there.
PM - good allrounder, versatile role within its limits, gets 1 kill every 3 days, not that big a deal, especially when psychic exists in most faction modes, reducing covens KPNs from day 2.
Medusa - in faction modes gaze n1 and n2 for CL to have some kill power. Bait hard day 2 and 3, so you get lynched instead of more important coven roles (you kinda suck late game anyway, when most roles are known). Strong role in AA tho (if CL didnt control a killer to you n1/2) can take out immune NKs/GF late game with the book - which she is last in line to get. Solo in AA isnt too bad either, with a powerful attack n3+ on whoever you want
which brings us to...
Poisoner - a pain in towns ass, if left unchecked, but a pain in covens ass too. Maybe gets a couple of extra kills early game if theres no doc, but puts coven at a huge disadvantage if CL dies and they end up with the book. I dont see many active poisoners survivng to late game tho. Most are getting picked off by TPs, since their targets are usually the TIs/TKs (CL usually has better priorities) Once it has the book, the delayed kill always screws you over. I dont think ive ever won as solo poisoner in AA, but drew a few times (thanks to the delayed kill), so basically its strong in a game with no psychic, doc, escort, trappers or crusaders otherwise get your early kills, then get bussed to save more important roles...

So yea, while coven have big early game kill potential, the town roles are designed in a way, to drop that kill potential very fast, or to straight out to kill the coven.. roles like crusader and trapper kill evils without dieing themselves, which classic doesnt have, so while coven can gain majority (or close to it) faster than mafia, they can also lose it just as fast. So I dont see any reason to nerf covens kill potential, when town roles have been designed and balanced around it...

[Soulshade55r]

hex master -

I'd have to disagree that it's even a good role there I've already said why I've disliked it though (mainly because it does mafias framer job but better and late game kills).

[Soulshade55r]

I figured it's worth giving my feedback on this even though the thread is dying (not a necro bump don't sue ¬_¬).

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

I'm fine with this change I really dislike the jailor meta and jailor will have to think twice even more about outing day 1 because doctor isn't a guarantee, but this also isn't a guarantee kill on the jailor either so if the jailor does out they will likely have to scout out players whispering to the jailor and try to get to the doctor, this also slightly buffs doctor which is alright because BG is slightly more better imo. Overall a lot better then a instant kill if jailor is unfairly forced to out This also makes revealing very risky for mayors they can't just do it d1 or they pretty much die unless jailor wants to waste jails on the mayor (which can easily get witched into killing mayor).
/fullSupport

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

I'd personally buff framer more then this, the main problem with framer is spy existing (I do hope spy gets a rework someday I don't think they are a priority role imo).
/KindaSupportovernothing

Heres what I think framer should be keep in mind the second target thing is a highly suggested thing by the community the second anti frame with two fake visit uses is added is what I thought would be nice to help with jailor meta even further and fake "good" visits on spy/LO games
Spoiler: Framer (Mafia Deception)
Attack: None / Defence: None
Abilities:
-During the night select two players the first will make them appear as mafia (Sheriff/Invest), the second will show them visiting that target player. (LO/Spies)
-Twice per game you may select a mafia member to appear to be Innocent, the second target will be the one they appear to visit.
Attributes:
-You may speak to the Mafia at night.
-If your second target is Jailed or first target is roleblocked they will appear to not visit like normal.
-Becomes the Mafioso, if there are no other capable mafia.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

First part is perfect, Second part I'd rather jailor not be able to jail. (SideNote: I really wish Vigi got the same guilt but maybe two shots I feel like this would lessen how much vigi can carry but also lessens the stress of killing two town for one mess up.
/Supportfirstpart

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

How would this exactly work, I think the first one would nerf Disguisers visit confirms for LO current disguiser is pretty bad still but I actually feel like that it would make it worse (of course maybe less in a jailor filled meta).
Second one sounds pretty alright but can only be used to make targets look like jester as it would be obvious if the target was dead mafia killed by mafia if there aren't and trans claims or people getting witched. I'm kinda iffy on this, I'd at least like to see it do more then just one thing per game so maybe it would keep it's old ability as well
I'd honestly like to see community feedback on disguiser as it generally doesn't get talked about as much as framer but is generally as problematic and bad (even though it has worked wonders on a odd couple of games it's just too dependent on a lot of things, I also don't think a mafia role should be encouraged to die).
/SupportSecondifit'swithit'scurrentability

EDIT:
Also can RMs who used all limited abilities have first priority to become the new Mafioso aka janitor/forger with no uses left.

[MysticMismagius]

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

How would this exactly work, I think the first one would nerf Disguisers visit confirms for LO current disguiser is pretty bad still but I actually feel like that it would make it worse (of course maybe less in a jailor filled meta).

The first suggestion here would not make Disg worse, it'd make it a lot better. Your complaint here is that with this change, Disguiser would be unable to use its visits to act as a quasi-fruit vendor for Mafia. But there are three significant flaws with this argument.
1) Mafia fruit vending was never all that good in an environment where Spy exists. It can often end up outing you as Mafia because the Lookout (who you intend to see you) and Spy now have an easy list of scum suspects, which your name is on.
2) Disguiser isn't supposed to be fruit vending anyway, even if Spy didn't exist. It's got a different ability that the visits are meant to be used for. If your best option is fruit vending or doing nothing, that means that your ability has failed you. If you're revolving a whole argument around Disguiser's utility as a fruit vendor, then its abilities have some serious problems that need to be addressed.
3) If it's really that big of a deal, we can easily add the ability for Disguiser to perform a useless visit on top of or instead of choosing a role to disguise as.

The reason why I think this suggestion improves Disguiser is because it makes it a lot easier for it to actually pull off a successful, Town-fooling disguise off. The way things currently stand, the only way you can successfully disguise in a way that fools and disrupts Town is if you know exactly who has the role you wish to disguise as. Most often this requires Consigliere support, and it always requires luck (Even if Consig spawns, or you don't need a Consig to know what roles people have for whatever reason, the role you need may just not exist, or die too soon). This leads to the ability to disguise your role being pretty useless in most games, hence the reliance on fruit vending. With the ability to just pick whatever role you want to disguise as, that problem goes away. You don't need the stars to align in your favor to pull off a disguise that works when you can just pick a role and disguise as that.

Second one sounds pretty alright but can only be used to make targets look like jester as it would be obvious if the target was dead mafia killed by mafia if there aren't and trans claims or people getting witched. I'm kinda iffy on this, I'd at least like to see it do more then just one thing per game so maybe it would keep it's old ability as well
/SupportSecondifit'swithit'scurrentability

It's pretty meh, and doesn't really do much to solve the aforementioned "Disguiser can barely pull off its normal disguises" problem.

EDIT:
Also can RMs who used all limited abilities have first priority to become the new Mafioso aka janitor/forger with no uses left.

Please for the love of god this
TMK would be better for Mafia as a whole, but in the meantime this will be a nice band-aid

[Soulshade55r]

Disguiser

The first suggestion here would not make Disg worse, it'd make it a lot better. Your complaint here is that with this change, Disguiser would be unable to use its visits to act as a quasi-fruit vendor for Mafia. But there are three significant flaws with this argument.
1) Mafia fruit vending was never all that good in an environment where Spy exists. It can often end up outing you as Mafia because the Lookout (who you intend to see you) and Spy now have an easy list of scum suspects, which your name is on.
2) Disguiser isn't supposed to be fruit vending anyway, even if Spy didn't exist. It's got a different ability that the visits are meant to be used for. If your best option is fruit vending or doing nothing, that means that your ability has failed you. If you're revolving a whole argument around Disguiser's utility as a fruit vendor, then its abilities have some serious problems that need to be addressed.
3) If it's really that big of a deal, we can easily add the ability for Disguiser to perform a useless visit on top of or instead of choosing a role to disguise as.

I still think it would unironically hurt disguiser more to remove it's visits, being the point that a ability that relies on one of your mafia dying is bad Disguisers main purpose in the current meta is to fake protect jailor and cause chaos for LO's and Spies who see mafia visiting the jailor, making the town hyper focused on finding the rm who visited Jailor. (at least that's how I've been playing it and seen others mainly play it).

I understand what you mean but even if disguiser could disguise as any role (only having an effect on investigator) It's main purpose is to die then cause confusion which is bad and unfun to play, disguiser in general just needs a lot of work to become a functionally good role. I'm not saying I have any idea on how to fix it but I think this takes away disguisers one actual useful niche being a visiting mafia (framer included) that can cause chaos

This is a really bad and unhealthy thing I won't deny that a role is bad if there one niche could be done by consigilere but consigilere is actually useful, heck even forger and janitor can do that a limited amount of times (janitor wasting cleans on visit confirms LOL).

[MysticMismagius]

Spoiler:

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

How would this exactly work, I think the first one would nerf Disguisers visit confirms for LO current disguiser is pretty bad still but I actually feel like that it would make it worse (of course maybe less in a jailor filled meta).

The first suggestion here would not make Disg worse, it'd make it a lot better. Your complaint here is that with this change, Disguiser would be unable to use its visits to act as a quasi-fruit vendor for Mafia. But there are three significant flaws with this argument.
1) Mafia fruit vending was never all that good in an environment where Spy exists. It can often end up outing you as Mafia because the Lookout (who you intend to see you) and Spy now have an easy list of scum suspects, which your name is on.
2) Disguiser isn't supposed to be fruit vending anyway, even if Spy didn't exist. It's got a different ability that the visits are meant to be used for. If your best option is fruit vending or doing nothing, that means that your ability has failed you. If you're revolving a whole argument around Disguiser's utility as a fruit vendor, then its abilities have some serious problems that need to be addressed.
3) If it's really that big of a deal, we can easily add the ability for Disguiser to perform a useless visit on top of or instead of choosing a role to disguise as.

The reason why I think this suggestion improves Disguiser is because it makes it a lot easier for it to actually pull off a successful, Town-fooling disguise off. The way things currently stand, the only way you can successfully disguise in a way that fools and disrupts Town is if you know exactly who has the role you wish to disguise as. Most often this requires Consigliere support, and it always requires luck (Even if Consig spawns, or you don't need a Consig to know what roles people have for whatever reason, the role you need may just not exist, or die too soon). This leads to the ability to disguise your role being pretty useless in most games, hence the reliance on fruit vending. With the ability to just pick whatever role you want to disguise as, that problem goes away. You don't need the stars to align in your favor to pull off a disguise that works when you can just pick a role and disguise as that.

I still think it would unironically hurt disguiser more to remove it's visits, being the point that a ability that relies on one of your mafia dying is bad Disguisers main purpose in the current meta is to fake protect jailor and cause chaos for LO's and Spies who see mafia visiting the jailor, Again, fruit vending. See everything I've mentioned about that above. making the town hyper focused on finding the rm who visited Jailor. (at least that's how I've been playing it and seen others mainly play it).

Even despite what I said above about how much easier it would be to actually pull off a disguise that works with this change?

I understand what you mean but even if disguiser could disguise as any role (only having an effect on investigator) It's main purpose is to die then cause confusion which is bad and unfun to play, disguiser in general just needs a lot of work to become a functionally good role. I'm not saying I have any idea on how to fix it but I think this takes away disguisers one actual useful niche being a visiting mafia (framer included) that can cause chaos

If that's the case then the entire role needs to just be redone from the ground up. I don't necessarily disagree with doing that, but at least this change makes the actual disguising part of disguiser easier to pull off and thus brings it back to the focus.
Ultimately, a Mafia role whose "niche" is fruit vending despite having an ability that isn't fruit vending means the role's real ability is either useless or too cumbersome to pull off. In Disguiser's case it's firmly the latter, so unless we're scrapping current Disg as a concept, we need to make its real ability easier to successfully perform. Letting it choose whatever role it wants to disguise as does exactly that.
Also, read Point 3 again. We can have this change and still let Disguiser fruit vend if it's really that big of a deal.

This is a really bad and unhealthy thing I won't deny that a role is bad if there one niche could be done by consigilere but consigilere is actually useful, heck even forger and janitor can do that a limited amount of times (janitor wasting cleans on visit confirms LOL).

Consig is useful, but it's also not guaranteed to appear and Disguiser should not be relying on it to do well
This is why old Disguiser was bad despite it being really good with Janitor: you were banking on good luck with role generation to get that combination in the first place, and it was nigh-useless without it
Same things is going on here with Disg + Consig, to a lesser extent

[Brilliand]

If that's the case then the entire role needs to just be redone from the ground up.

Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

Change this to 3 uses and we have a near-total rework of the role's purpose, without changing its mechanic all that much.

A role that disguises other people is effectively the Forger's "other half", creating confusion as to whether a player was Disguised or Forged, and creating a combined effect that's stronger than a Janitor clean if both roles work together.

[MysticMismagius]

If that's the case then the entire role needs to just be redone from the ground up.

Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

Change this to 3 uses and we have a near-total rework of the role's purpose, without changing its mechanic all that much.

A role that disguises other people is effectively the Forger's "other half", creating confusion as to whether a player was Disguised or Forged, and creating a combined effect that's stronger than a Janitor clean if both roles work together.

Or, just let Forger do both at the same time
That way it'd be an actually decent alternative to Janitor, rather than its current state where it's just plain worse

A role that's designed to be another role's "other half" just means each role is half as good alone, and even if this Disg were to exist, the "confusion" would not matter all that much
Example: Let's say that someone dies. They have a Sheriff will but flip Vigilante. In this scenario, the dead player (unless throwing, NE, or afflicted by both Forger and this version of Disg doing a shoddy job at it) can only be one of those two roles. Sure it won't be "obv disg" anymore but it's still narrowed down to just two roles, which is not that impactful

[Brilliand]

Or, just let Forger do both at the same time
That way it'd be an actually decent alternative to Janitor, rather than its current state where it's just plain worse

That single role would be a super-Janitor, though. I don't think Janitor needs a buff, or another role that's even stronger than it.

A role that's designed to be another role's "other half" just means each role is half as good alone, and even if this Disg were to exist, the "confusion" would not matter all that much
Example: Let's say that someone dies. They have a Sheriff will but flip Vigilante. In this scenario, the dead player (unless throwing, NE, or afflicted by both Forger and this version of Disg doing a shoddy job at it) can only be one of those two roles. Sure it won't be "obv disg" anymore but it's still narrowed down to just two roles, which is not that impactful

That's true, this role would kind of suck at disguising Town. Which means... it would probably spend its time disguising the other Mafia members.

(Which means it needs to be able to target Mafia, and needs to only lose a charge when a disguised player dies.)

[MysticMismagius]

Or, just let Forger do both at the same time
That way it'd be an actually decent alternative to Janitor, rather than its current state where it's just plain worse

That single role would be a super-Janitor, though. I don't think Janitor needs a buff, or another role that's even stronger than it.

Fair enough.

A role that's designed to be another role's "other half" just means each role is half as good alone, and even if this Disg were to exist, the "confusion" would not matter all that much
Example: Let's say that someone dies. They have a Sheriff will but flip Vigilante. In this scenario, the dead player (unless throwing, NE, or afflicted by both Forger and this version of Disg doing a shoddy job at it) can only be one of those two roles. Sure it won't be "obv disg" anymore but it's still narrowed down to just two roles, which is not that impactful

That's true, this role would kind of suck at disguising Town. Which means... it would probably spend its time disguising the other Mafia members.

(Which means it needs to be able to target Mafia, and needs to only lose a charge when a disguised player dies.)

but you see, there is a reason why Forger/Janitor almost never deliberately target someone besides Mafia's killing target for the night: because they rarely if ever know that person is going to die. Even if it's "safe" on whiff, most people won't bother disguising the role of their fellow Mafia because it will very rarely work out. They'll just try to disguise the people who the Mafia's killing a la Forger/Janitor and, as mentioned above, do a not very impactful job at it.

[wozearly]

Or, just let Forger do both at the same time
That way it'd be an actually decent alternative to Janitor, rather than its current state where it's just plain worse

That single role would be a super-Janitor, though. I don't think Janitor needs a buff, or another role that's even stronger than it.

Allowing the Forger to select a Town role its target will appear as on death (provided it dies that night) gives the Forger a fighting chance of planting a fake will that won't be instantly revealed as highly suspicious and gives them something more to do than their current role of weak, janitor-wannabe will-wiper. Limiting it to one successful forge (or similar), would prevent it creeping too far into Janitor's space.

It doesn't buff Janitor (?) nor does it replace it with a role that's stronger. The Forger already occupies a position between Janitor and Disguiser, it just struggles to make use of it - it shares the same underlying problem as the Disguiser (you need to know the role you're disguising as to fake the will), but has an even higher threshold for success than Disguiser as you need to take into account information that person may have shared publicly or privately to avoid the forge being revealed, and kill the role on the correct night to take advantage of it, and maintain both your own fake will and a forged fake will for a potential target.

You're not there in the graveyard yourself to maintain the deception after your target's death like a Disguiser, and so are susceptible to the forge being revealed by a Medium. An incidental Medium buff right now is no bad thing at all. New-Ret trying to use the role will likely also reveal the forge. Also, as most will-revealing targets are undesirable for the Forger, chances are the role you remove will be unknown to you. Therefore although the Mafia can distort Town's understanding of the role list with a forge, they don't improve their own understanding at Town's expense in the way that a Janitor can.

All three already lurk in a similar space of disrupting PoE and/or casting doubt on the wills of "confirmed" Town members, but do so in distinctly different ways. Buffing the Disguiser and Forger so that they can actually take up those roles is necessary, and allowing them to select the Town role to appear as / forge as is a simple way to achieve this.

[Brilliand]

but you see, there is a reason why Forger/Janitor almost never deliberately target someone besides Mafia's killing target for the night: because they rarely if ever know that person is going to die. Even if it's "safe" on whiff, most people won't bother disguising the role of their fellow Mafia because it will very rarely work out. They'll just try to disguise the people who the Mafia's killing a la Forger/Janitor and, as mentioned above, do a not very impactful job at it.

There are only four Mafia members, and in any game where the Mafia might lose, some of those are going to die - frequently (though not always) in an order that the Mafia can predict, at least a night in advance.

Disguising the first Mafia to be lynched no matter which one that is is well within what the anyone-disguiser should be able to accomplish, and that allows it to do what it's currently capable of without having to be the first one to die. Disguising two or three Mafia is likely to cause the Town serious problems, in the not-too-unlikely case that the Disguiser can pull it off. (Granted the Jailor is ridiculously good at countering this sort of disguising.)

I think the possibility that people won't choose the optimal play because they're afraid it won't take effect that night is pretty much ignorable.

Also, as most will-revealing targets are undesirable for the Forger, chances are the role you remove will be unknown to you. Therefore although the Mafia can distort Town's understanding of the role list with a forge, they don't improve their own understanding at Town's expense in the way that a Janitor can.

Oh, that's a good point. The role+will-forger isn't a super-Janitor because it doesn't privately get to see what the person's original role+will was.

[JacksonVirgo]

I haven't read all the thread but I'll post my opinions on these changes.

Mafioso - Support this change but I'd rather tactical kills be implemented as well.
Framer - Framers by theme shouldnt need to make a mafia show as inno. Keep that as a Godfather perk, Instead make the framer affect all investigative roles such as here. This role would STILL be way too weak and situational.
Jailor - Escort can still cause the same issues with solo Mafioso/GF + Youngest vamp etc. Suicide mechanic is questionable but jailor losing jail mechanic is probably worse.
Disguiser Support this wholeheartedly

[Confectionery]

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=109300

Refer to this and think which ones should be added.

Arsonist, needs the most help when it's coming to balance changes.

ALSO, a side insight. Make Juggernaut role block immune and attack Jailor in jail.

"An unstoppable force that only get's stronger."

Only to be stopped by role blockers? Makes no sense. In addition, it screws up the summary of the role.