Balance Discussions Part 2

[BasicFourLife]

Part 2 includes changes from the previous discussion.

Hey everyone,

Along with the coming Town Traitor game modes we are looking at doing a balancing patch when we take ranked into off-season. This will allow us to test the balance changes and propose ranked practice role lists for what will be the fifth season of ranked. The goal of this post is to open up communication and brainstorm on potential changes while we are still early in the process so that there will be time to make adjustments. Please feel free to discuss any thoughts you may have about issues with the current meta and what you would like to see going into Season 5.

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

Aren't town and mafia win rates near parity? What point is there is hard buffing mafia and hard nerfing town?

by "near parity" you mean 50 50 right? If so, absolutely not. If im wrong, wdym

last i checked it was 70-80/20-10/sub 10

[BlastingOff]

hey @Achilles, are there any updates on this? It would be good to know what the devs like so far so we know what we could discuss.

[James2]

Part 2 includes changes from the previous discussion.

Hey everyone,

Along with the coming Town Traitor game modes we are looking at doing a balancing patch when we take ranked into off-season. This will allow us to test the balance changes and propose ranked practice role lists for what will be the fifth season of ranked. The goal of this post is to open up communication and brainstorm on potential changes while we are still early in the process so that there will be time to make adjustments. Please feel free to discuss any thoughts you may have about issues with the current meta and what you would like to see going into Season 5.

Mafioso
Allow a 1 time use per game Ninja (thematic synonym to Astral) Attack.

Thought process: In the current meta the Jailor has no fear of announcing himself on day 1, knowing that Town Protective's and the Lookout will guard him, making it impossible for the Mafia to deal with them. If the Mafioso has 1 Ninja Attack per game it would give the Mafia an opportunity to bypass a BodyGuard/Trap on a priority role, as well as avoid detection by Lookout/Spy. An added bonus is that this gives the Mafioso something unique to help the Mafia outside of just following the Godfather's orders.

Framer
Limited number of uses to target your own Mafia members, making them appear innocent.

Jailor
Jailor cannot jail the same player on consecutive nights (similar to Pirate). If a Jailor executes a Town member they will commit suicide the following night (like Vigilante).

Potential future changes
These are changes that are up in the air still. Some of these changes are not trivial and will delay how long a balance patch will take.

Disguiser
Instead of taking on the role of your target, you can select from a list of all possible roles to disguise as for the night.
OR
Choose a target at night to disguise their role with a role from a list of all possible roles. Limited to 1 successful use.

Aren't town and mafia win rates near parity? What point is there is hard buffing mafia and hard nerfing town?

by "near parity" you mean 50 50 right? If so, absolutely not. If im wrong, wdym

last i checked it was 70-80/20-10/sub 10

Are recent stats available somewhere?

[BustedBetty]

Please do not touch Jailor. There is nothing wrong with the role. TP/Lo is always gonna be there as long as someone can talk. Anyone can claim for that or fake claim jailor.

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Mafioso change is eh. If you're gonna keep it, only can use it for n1. I dont see anything wrong with mafioso. It does it's job as being the second killing role in case of rb.

I like the rm buffs.

[BustedBetty]

Also consort should be the last rm to turn mafioso.

[MysticMismagius]

Please do not touch Jailor. There is nothing wrong with the role.

I too love it when certain roles/factions are invalidated because jailor can roleblock repeatedly

to be fair
this can be fixed without touching jailor

*cough* tactical mafia kills

[BustedBetty]

Please do not touch Jailor. There is nothing wrong with the role.

i too love it when certain roles/factions are invalidated because jailor can roleblock repeatedly

???? Most of the time that happens because of ret or just bad luck with evils dying too quickly therefore you can't vote townies off. You can replace jailor with escort and the same situation is still there.

[orangeandblack5]

But Escort can only do that

[BustedBetty]

Jailor without executions is basically an escort so it's still the same situation.

[MysticMismagius]

Please do not touch Jailor. There is nothing wrong with the role.

I too love it when certain roles/factions are invalidated because jailor can roleblock repeatedly

to be fair
this can be fixed without touching jailor

*cough* tactical mafia kills

that wouldn't be a total fix since it would only be for mafia

also good luck getting devs to implement tactical kills

a girl can dream, okay?

[Brilliand]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Ret is horrible when it appears, but it just doesn't appear that often compared with how often the Town has an unfair advantage.

It's either "Jailor is busted" (because Jailor is the only Town role that appears in every game) or "Town has several broken roles". (tbh I think both statements are true)

[PatrykSzczescie]

Ret is counterable by scum. Just prepare a whisper "WeLcOmE bAcK, mY fRiEnD" to the most important dead town role and hit Enter once the night ends.

[CrimsonKatana]

Ret is only counter able when you know who it is and you have a consort or a witch and smart retris will usually never just claim ret before they revive. The problem with retris is it gives bad towns that should have lost because they made enough misplays wins because it brings basically an extra number to the team.

[ak521]

Ret is counterable by scum. Just prepare a whisper "WeLcOmE bAcK, mY fRiEnD" to the most important dead town role and hit Enter once the night ends.

That's just SO false.

Who in the world cares about the RET CLAIM? If there's 2 ret claims, smart towns let both lives and keep in their mind that one is evil. You'll get interrogated by a sheriff or invest and quickly get outed. This is the most stupid thing I've seen on these forums because Ret is not counterable, and even if you make an argument about consorts/witches, if there is neither, town has almost a guaranteed win.
Let's see..
+1 townie (more targets for mafia)
+1 confirmed townie (confirmed slot in role list)
+1 confirmed ret (confirmed slot in TS)
+X confirmed medium(s) (confirmed slot(s) in RT(s))
And a good chance that townie has valuable information or valuable abilities.

The retributionist is far too overpowered to be countered, claiming ret as evil with a real ret is currently terrible as TIs can EASILY confirm the real ret.

[ak521]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Ret is horrible when it appears, but it just doesn't appear that often compared with how often the Town has an unfair advantage.

It's either "Jailor is busted" (because Jailor is the only Town role that appears in every game) or "Town has several broken roles". (tbh I think both statements are true)

town in ranked is just stupid in general

every single town role is either at least very strong or is a gimmick role with overall mediocre utility but is situationally very strong

medium and escort being the latter category and every other town role being the former

could not agree more.

[Transcender]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Ret is horrible when it appears, but it just doesn't appear that often compared with how often the Town has an unfair advantage.

It's either "Jailor is busted" (because Jailor is the only Town role that appears in every game) or "Town has several broken roles". (tbh I think both statements are true)

town in ranked is just stupid in general

every single town role is either at least very strong or is a gimmick role with overall mediocre utility but is situationally very strong

medium and escort being the latter category and every other town role being the former

so what you are saying is that we need bomber

[BustedBetty]

There is nothing wrong with the role Jailor. Maybe you need to get better at the game.

[Transcender]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Ret is horrible when it appears, but it just doesn't appear that often compared with how often the Town has an unfair advantage.

It's either "Jailor is busted" (because Jailor is the only Town role that appears in every game) or "Town has several broken roles". (tbh I think both statements are true)

town in ranked is just stupid in general

every single town role is either at least very strong or is a gimmick role with overall mediocre utility but is situationally very strong

medium and escort being the latter category and every other town role being the former

so what you are saying is that we need bomber

exactly

youre tg admin add it to the game already

[Transcender]

THE REAL PROBLEM IS RET. Remove it. Just remove it. Then test it out in games and see the outcome.

Ret is horrible when it appears, but it just doesn't appear that often compared with how often the Town has an unfair advantage.

It's either "Jailor is busted" (because Jailor is the only Town role that appears in every game) or "Town has several broken roles". (tbh I think both statements are true)

town in ranked is just stupid in general

every single town role is either at least very strong or is a gimmick role with overall mediocre utility but is situationally very strong

medium and escort being the latter category and every other town role being the former

so what you are saying is that we need bomber

exactly

youre tg admin add it to the game already

we don't talk about tg

yeah in my absence you already joined and left again you obviously know nothing about balance

[MysticMismagius]

what even is bomber
and is your suggestion of it serious or a joke

[Transcender]

what even is bomber
and is your suggestion of it serious or a joke

yes

[ak521]

There is nothing wrong with the role Jailor. Maybe you need to get better at the game.

Except for the fact it's the singlemost valuable and important role to town. It kills evils, roleblocks evils, protects townies. It is the equivalent of TS, TP, and TK combined. Possibly even TI as well as jailor forces people to claim. The role is highly overloaded and you clearly haven't the slightest clue about ToS.

[KAKERMAN23]

In terms of jailor nerfs, I haven't read through this whole thread, but I heard from outside sources that one of the proposed nerfs would be to stop the jailor from jailing a person multiple times. I think this is a terrible idea, as later in the game you might've already jailed someone but more evidence comes out against them later, but you can't do anything about it. It would make more sense for there to be a restriction similar to Pirate where the jailor cannot jail the same person twice in a row. I don't even know if these nerfs are still even being discussed.

[BustedBetty]

There is nothing wrong with the role Jailor. Maybe you need to get better at the game.

Except for the fact it's the singlemost valuable and important role to town. It kills evils, roleblocks evils, protects townies. It is the equivalent of TS, TP, and TK combined. Possibly even TI as well as jailor forces people to claim. The role is highly overloaded and you clearly haven't the slightest clue about ToS.

What are you talking about? I have been playing this game since the beginning of 2016. I have went through multiple seasons. I have seen how different ranked was vs where it is now via roles changing and the role list. Jailor does not break the game at all. Some people are not even good at playing the role. These nerfs suggested are horrible especially if you have a throwing jailor. I have never heard or seen anyone complain about a Jailor until I read this thread. Jailor is suppose to be a top tier role. Thats why it is unique like a mayor. The entire purpose of the game is to lie. You lie to avoid being killed. Jailor has to speak to people in order to validate an execution. It would not make sense for jailor to not hold people in jail. Jailor is not unkillable.

[Brilliand]

Some people are not even good at playing the role.

Not relevant.

Obviously people who don't know what they're doing will lose no matter how much power you give them.

These nerfs suggested are horrible especially if you have a throwing jailor.

You should realize that nerfs make gamethrowing as that role less effective, not more. (Real gamethrowing, I mean.)

I have never heard or seen anyone complain about a Jailor until I read this thread. Jailor is suppose to be a top tier role. Thats why it is unique like a mayor.

Right, you like many people who learned this game without developing an idea of game balance beforehand think that the way the game is must be right because that's the way the game is.

A competitive environment should not have rare, powerful things that you can randomly roll. That unfairly disadvantages the players who didn't randomly roll the powerful thing.

When people in certain game modes get unfairly disadvantaged because the wrong person rolled Jailor, they don't say "the Jailor role sucks". They say "Jailor threw." But usually, that isn't true - the player playing Jailor didn't throw. The whole "Jailor threw" meme wouldn't be a thing if the Jailor was a balanced role.

(I'm not sure which gamemodes and/or ELO levels that happens in exactly, but if your'e seeing people say "Jailor threw", you're probably seeing what I described above.)