Town Traitor Role List Discussion

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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri May 15, 2020 10:02 am

EpicEmperor wrote:
Achilles wrote:It seems the debate on TT role lists has mostly died. Think the last change people want is 1 more Random Town instead of a confirmed role?
I hope I'm not too late on this! I have a lot to say due to a lot of previous consideration! I don't want to claim authority but I have played a LOT of coven custom -one lobby which you joined and told me about traitor in- so I'm kind of familiar with the rolelist process, and I want to explain a few things from my experience that might lighten things up a bit. People have dismissed a lot of the swing issues as insolvable but I find it quite the opposite. TI are weaker than TP which are weaker than killing roles which are weaker than Mayor/Jailor. This CAN BE SOLVED. If you put relatively few TI in, ~two, you can make them rarer and more useful to town because of their scarcity compared to the rest of the hopefully 9 or 10 sized lawful townies. You can't exactly make them useful to coven when they're a traitor, so the use comes in town being deprived of them. This also pushing scumreading to the forefront. That works well! TS could be swingy in random form because of medium and ret, but as long as you only have 1 TS and don't use a confirmed medium/ret, their exclusivity will be powerful enough to prove useful as a traitor. The mayor problem is one i've seen thrown around too, with little response. I have seen the idea of TK handling it, and to my chagrin it's been shut down instead of encouraged. If you have enough TK, they deal more KPN than coven, and if coven isn't careful they can straight up reveal themselves, making what would be an easy Mayor-traitor-coven-win a Vigilante shooting range that Coven has to not get caught in. I've also seen a lot of randoms get thrown in for replayability's sake, though the same thing can be seen in gamemodes like Lovers or VIP and it's safe. Most if it seems to have been completely disregarded in the current list. However neither focus in on the idea of making confirmable roles as valuable as those supporting them to the coven (and I say this focusing on coven, of which I am more familiar.) The game already somewhat balances this out by making most of the traitor suspicion naturally fall on the roles with massive responsibility! all you have to do is do the rest and utilize good roles like Crusader and Vigilante to Balance it out. Also, RC with CL and no medusa is super swingy. I can't imagine a player thinking "Wow, I wish medusa didn't always exist, I really have a craving for not being able to deal earlygame damage to town!" I have a few lists brainstormed with all of this in mind, however I've only been able to work up one measly game of the current list in which someone gamethrew. I need a better look at the game than that. However, I'm sure there are better ways than those suggested if I have the time to do some testing with the current list.
So what would a role list that takes all this that you've mentioned into account look like?
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Fri May 15, 2020 9:58 pm

Before you Judge my list, I urge you to read the whole thing- because it may seem vapid and unbalanced- But I've had since the 22nd of march to think about this, I'm only posting now because I didn't expect achilles to actually MAKE this so early. So please, after looking over the list, allow me to persuade you by mentioning exactly how every single role in the game fits together.

Jailor
Escort
Crusader
Vigilante
TownSupport
TownInvestigative
TownInvestigative
TownProtective
TownProtective
TownKilling
TownKilling

Coven Leader
Medusa
Necromancer
RandomCoven


Let's take it from the top, particularly the top two. This part is mostly to compromise with Achilles' goal on having a rolelist with strong confirmable roles that are maybe not as trustworthy as usual. This WAS Jailor and Mayor, until I discussed it with one of my friends with more experience and they contradicted the idea of both Jailor and mayor being effective in one game. Yes, it's useful to have the other if one is traitor, but if neither are traitor it unbalances the game big-time. There are less TS slots in the list and Mayor is a more powerful traitor, so I switched it out for Escort, a role that fits in with this setup exquisitely. The TownSupport is more lenience towards this, because Mayor isn't something to be ruled out. I'd like to think a Surprise Mayor is more fun and fitting for a chaos mode. Trans/Escort/Medium are all good too! Ret is still broken as all tarnation. This is to my knowledge unfixable. I really tried to make a list without RTS. I really did. If Ret could be removed from the gamemode forever that would be absolutely amazing. Let me note having retributionist as an extremely weak Traitor > Having this role be traitor-free altogether. Ret can fake medium to a tee, and If they want to make the ballsy play of reviving a townie to look confirmed, who are we to tell them they can't try it.

TownInvestigatives are very small in number, and that is intentional. It was not hard to observe ingame and out of game that TI was SUPER weak as traitor. That type of thing DOES cost you the game. So how do you buff it? Well, Make it super rare in comparison. I was strict with the Dual-TI rule. Now, if a TI is the traitor, which it rarely will be- it is eliminating the town's already dwindling Information supply by an entire half. This forces scumreading to play an EVEN MORE prominent role in this list, which is very relevant to the meat of the list

TownKilling is big. It's the largest subfaction, tying with CovenEvil. This may look overpowered, as there are so few coven, but note that Coven can potentially have up to four members covered with basic defense or higher, completely self sustained. Jailor is pretty unavoidable and a tad overpowered, but it has to exist. The TK combats a coven's claim to majority with a traitor mayor, which is still a nightmare scenario, but more reasonable with the prospect of a TK comeback. In a way It functions kind of like VIP, but for a different audience. Instead of Cooperation and stable TP chains, you have to work Individually, hiding from CL and using the little information you have; Scumreading! And isn't that what this mode is about? I was worried about Vigis overshadowing the traitor, but when I stepped back and explained what Vigilantes and Traitors induce a need for, and it's scumreading. If you're worried it'll be Vigi hell, don't. Most of the time it'll be Jailor/Veteran/Vigi/Vigi. Two vigilantes isn't too much to handle. And on the off chance of 3 Vigis; this will be quite enjoyable for people who are playing chaos modes for the "chaos". It's not like i'm forcing you to play vigilantics lolol. Vigi killing as traitor also doesn't suck when you can pitch the blame on someone else or witch. Do it to get a coven majority or whatever you like. Should be a fun time, too.

TownProtectives are pretty standard, but work well with Necromancer, which was a decision I thought would be neat before I developed everything else, but kind of just fell into place and worked like magic. Necro is powerful here. 3 TP can handle most of town's problems, if LO/Trans doesn't show up to handle it. Crusader is one of the confirmed roles, and it's accentuated here because of it's interest as a traitor. It just has more options than other TP (more replayability.) They're moderately powerful as traitor.

The Coven having only RC and a CL is dangerous to KPN. From reading the entire thread I can see others see this issue. Yes, RC over medusa makes for more options. No, it doesn't make it more fun. Medusa and CL confirmed make medium work as a role which makes TS viable. Medusa's chance of not existing as of now is really swingy. And decides the game oftentimes more than the traitor does. Necromancer was explained earlier, and is allaround awesome here. RC is good because it makes the game more replayable, duh. Also, PM can keep up with HM's TI corruption and Poisoner's KPN because it's heal potion has way more use with the onslaught of TK.

(Footnotes)

For TK, If you want more of a chance of vet, make it 3 TK or Confirmed Veteran. If you want more of a chance of 3 Vigis, Make it 2 Vig and a TK.

This will likely appeal to newer players, which may boost coven's winrate a bit. I'm not relying on Vigilantes being idiots, just them not being US trained snipers. If they are, it's coven's fault for not blocking every shot with a Town protective, healing, or CL misdirect.

I hope this suffices, if you have further concerns I will be monitoring this page for at least a week in the vain hope of my list being used. It may be too late but this stuff is just so much fun for my brain to puzzle around with.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri May 15, 2020 10:24 pm

EpicEmperor wrote:Before you Judge my list, I urge you to read the whole thing- because it may seem vapid and unbalanced- But I've had since the 22nd of march to think about this, I'm only posting now because I didn't expect achilles to actually MAKE this so early. So please, after looking over the list, allow me to persuade you by mentioning exactly how every single role in the game fits together.

Jailor
Escort
Crusader
Vigilante
TownSupport
TownInvestigative
TownInvestigative
TownProtective
TownProtective
TownKilling
TownKilling

Coven Leader
Medusa
Necromancer
RandomCoven


Let's take it from the top, particularly the top two. This part is mostly to compromise with Achilles' goal on having a rolelist with strong confirmable roles that are maybe not as trustworthy as usual. This WAS Jailor and Mayor, until I discussed it with one of my friends with more experience and they contradicted the idea of both Jailor and mayor being effective in one game. Yes, it's useful to have the other if one is traitor, but if neither are traitor it unbalances the game big-time. There are less TS slots in the list and Mayor is a more powerful traitor, so I switched it out for Escort, a role that fits in with this setup exquisitely. The TownSupport is more lenience towards this, because Mayor isn't something to be ruled out. I'd like to think a Surprise Mayor is more fun and fitting for a chaos mode. Trans/Escort/Medium are all good too! Ret is still broken as all tarnation. This is to my knowledge unfixable. I really tried to make a list without RTS. I really did. Well that's a problem. No RT murders Coven claimspace. Under the current system, it doesn't matter how invisible the Traitor is if the Coven all get hanged due to not being able to claim anything. The Town can just systematically lynch people until they find the Traitor. If Ret could be removed from the gamemode forever that would be absolutely amazing. Let me note having retributionist as an extremely weak Traitor > Having this role be traitor-free altogether. Ret can fake medium to a tee, and If they want to make the ballsy play of reviving a townie to look confirmed, who are we to tell them they can't try it.

TownInvestigatives are very small in number, and that is intentional. It was not hard to observe ingame and out of game that TI was SUPER weak as traitor. That type of thing DOES cost you the game. So how do you buff it? Well, Make it super rare in comparison. I was strict with the Dual-TI rule. Now, if a TI is the traitor, which it rarely will be- it is eliminating the town's already dwindling Information supply by an entire half. This forces scumreading to play an EVEN MORE prominent role in this list, which is very relevant to the meat of the list. Fair play on limiting TI, especially with how ridiculous Investigator and Psychic are if they're not Traitor.

TownKilling is big. It's the largest subfaction, tying with CovenEvil. This may look overpowered, as there are so few coven, but note that Coven can potentially have up to four members covered with basic defense or higher, HOW? Only Coven Leader has inherent defence. completely self sustained. Jailor is pretty unavoidable and a tad overpowered, but it has to exist. The TK combats a coven's claim to majority with a traitor mayor, which is still a nightmare scenario, but more reasonable with the prospect of a TK comeback. In a way It functions kind of like VIP, but for a different audience. Instead of cooperation and stable TP chains, you have to work individually, hiding from CL and using the little information you have; Scumreading! And isn't that what this mode is about? I was worried about Vigis overshadowing the traitor, but when I stepped back and explained what Vigilantes and Traitors induce a need for, and it's scumreading. If you're worried it'll be Vigi hell, don't. Most of the time it'll be Jailor/Veteran/Vigi/Vigi. Two vigilantes isn't too much to handle. This still seems like Hell. It's not just two Vigis, it's two Vigis and Jailor and Veteran. Town almost has more KPN potential than the Coven with this setup. And god forbid Mayor or Ret spawns in that TS slot... And on the off chance of 3 Vigis; this will be quite enjoyable for people who are playing chaos modes for the "chaos". It's not like i'm forcing you to play vigilantics lolol. You say that, but it almost is like vigilantics Vigi killing as traitor also doesn't suck when you can pitch the blame on someone else or witch. Do it to get a coven majority or whatever you like. Should be a fun time, too.

TownProtectives are pretty standard, but work well with Necromancer, which was a decision I thought would be neat before I developed everything else, but kind of just fell into place and worked like magic. Necro is powerful here. 3 TP can handle most of town's problems, if LO/Trans doesn't show up to handle it. Crusader is one of the confirmed roles, and it's accentuated here because of it's interest as a traitor. It just has more options than other TP (more replayability.) They're moderately powerful as traitor.

The Coven having only RC and a CL is dangerous to KPN. From reading the entire thread I can see others see this issue. Yes, RC over medusa makes for more options. No, it doesn't make it more fun. Medusa and CL confirmed make medium work as a role which makes TS viable. Medusa's chance of not existing as of now is really swingy. And decides the game oftentimes more than the traitor does. Necromancer was explained earlier, and is allaround awesome here. RC is good because it makes the game more replayable, duh. Also, PM can keep up with HM's TI corruption and Poisoner's KPN because it's heal potion has way more use with the onslaught of TK. Fair enough. Didn't realize the new list actually doesn't have a Medusa lol
I do think CL/Medusa/RC/RC makes more sense than CL/Medusa/Necromancer/RC tho.


(Footnotes)

For TK, If you want more of a chance of vet, make it 3 TK or Confirmed Veteran. If you want more of a chance of 3 Vigis, Make it 2 Vig and a TK.

This will likely appeal to newer players, which may boost coven's winrate a bit. I'm not relying on Vigilantes being idiots, just them not being US trained snipers. If they are, it's coven's fault for not blocking every shot with a Town protective, healing, or CL misdirect. It's Coven's fault for not being absolute gods and blocking every single Vigi shot that comes their way? Okay dude

I hope this suffices, if you have further concerns I will be monitoring this page for at least a week in the vain hope of my list being used. It may be too late but this stuff is just so much fun for my brain to puzzle around with.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Sat May 16, 2020 12:00 pm

Seeing all the red text was kinda spooky, but after reading it, it was quite nice to see you looking over my rolelist, so I respect you for doing so! Thank you. However, due to what you pointed out I realized I may have not explained a few things to an extent I should have. That is my fault, because I was pressuring myself to finish the post by 11:59 so I could go to sleep without feeling like I cheated anyone. So here are the responses to your sentiments, or at least those that were there to question my list's reasoning

The first one is... hard to rebut, but specifically because It sounds confrontational to pull out my vast experience in RT-free games and claim you're incorrect. Yeah, in ranked or other certain modes where there is 1 TS TK and TP slot the RT getting busted ends the game because 2 TI slots isn't enough for a whole faction- but claimspace isn't exactly provided by random roles. Claimspace is provided by Rifts, which is an umbrella of multiple of the same role or subfaction. If there are four confirmed trappers in a rolelist, and six claims, two are obviously evil but the claimspace is still there. RT do play a part, which is where I think this misconception comes from. RT eases up on all subfactions (and to an extent confirmed) by allowing them to overflow a bit. It's pretty cool, if you ask me, but you can make a TP or (not) TK claim easier in coven than in classic, so using multiple TP and multiple TI and even multiple TK provides ABUNDANT claimspace. In my experience, Jailor and/or RT are usually not very viable. Here, RT will effect the balance of each town subfaction that I have deemed good. Changing out the TK, TI, and TP for RT would lead to possibly less claimspace, just due to the chance of TS. And the TS numbers are already small enough. If you count the claimable TK, TI, and TP slots (7-8)- there is easily enough claimspace for all the coven, and even possibly a fake claim for the traitor, if they want to soak up all coven's claimspace. Also, I apologize for putting the bit about vigilantes in footnotes, It's probably a more major deal and I should have put it here.

Please don't think I meant permanently, they're covered for a night. However, I figured out it's actually a maximum of 5 protected coven members, not four. Here's the lowdown: CL has basic defense and controls a TP into Medusa. 2/3 coven members protected. Necromancer can use a dead TP to protect potion master for a powerful defense. Potion master can heal the Traitor, which could be a TP, but if you really want to push it and are willing to throw out the whole "basic defense or higher" thing you could probably use a transporter. They go on the Necromancer. I understand if you say this is horrendously unlikely because I understand that. I'm not banking on a vigilante killing the whole coven, especially when losing the game by misplaying is on the line. It's just that good vigilantes will be rewarded with Good results, and bad vigilantes with basically lose the game if they mess up bad enough. That's a flaw I will admit with the list, but it's in tune with my wonderful comparisons with the other chaos modes, who all happen to have worse claimspace than this one somehow, whilst still making room for evils to claim. Also, an issue like that is caused by a bad teammate, instead of the current problems, which include *the game deciding to put the weird sheriff nobody likes on your team,* or *having no KPN at all until the RC Necromancer gets the necronomicon.* I did have an interesting conversation with my associate about Coven's chance of getting shot, and they brought up some good points i'm sure you'd agree with and even bring up- but TK is a requirement under the horrid possibility of traitor mayor or jailor, and when it's not there's a sincere risk of town self destructing, especially if the Traitor is highly skilled, or TownInvestigative. Also, it fills the list up with a very fitting role, leaving room for a moderate TP force and a small TI. the subfactions are proportioned in a way I can't see being changed as of now.

TK indeed could definitely have more KPN than coven. They could sustain it for multiple nights if the vigilantes kill themselves the next night, too. If the vigilantes are expert navy seals that can sniff out magic then coven's inability to beat them is indeed a very deserved loss. Remember what god said unto man? "thou shalt only be able to kill me if you have >2000 elo and all vigilante achievements, so until then, coven wins bb" Also, 4/10 isn't that bad of a chance of being traitor. Even if they roll the weakest one, that's still 1 Vigi 1 Jailor 1 Vet. Would anyone even bat an eye at that? If it ISN'T TK, town can handle it. If it Is, town just stole their TK.

Medium Escort and Trans are also good TS rolls too! Medium hardcounters Medusa, Transporter is honestly more powerful than mayor in a lot of facets, and Escort... Second escort is kind of strange but If played well it could definitely halt a few kills, I guess. It could save CL-discovered vigilantes, which is one of it's main uses.

I still felt happy when you complimented medusa even though it's the most obvious change to the current list ever lmao. Necro works gr8 with this list, but you were probably just talking about CL Medusa RC RC in the context of the current list, in which it gee golly well may make more sense. If not I'd love to hear why you don't think Necro works.

(Footnotes)

Sorry if I ever came off as overly sarcastic in some bits, I try to be relatively polite when engaging in persuasion but I am a town of salem player after all.

Thanks again!
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby XiuLaterTownies » Sat May 16, 2020 12:11 pm

EpicEmperor wrote:Jailor
Escort
Crusader
Vigilante
TownSupport
TownInvestigative
TownInvestigative
TownProtective
TownProtective
TownKilling
TownKilling

Coven Leader
Medusa
Necromancer
RandomCoven


I like the list, just worried about how much the KPN turnout would be (for both factions). It would be nice to see if the list works in action or not.
If it’s too bad then I feel like subbing TK for a TP is something to try.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Sat May 16, 2020 12:33 pm

EpicEmperor wrote:Seeing all the red text was kinda spooky, but after reading it, it was quite nice to see you looking over my rolelist, so I respect you for doing so! Thank you. However, due to what you pointed out I realized I may have not explained a few things to an extent I should have. That is my fault, because I was pressuring myself to finish the post by 11:59 so I could go to sleep without feeling like I cheated anyone. So here are the responses to your sentiments, or at least those that were there to question my list's reasoning
Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~

EpicEmperor wrote:The first one is... hard to rebut, but specifically because It sounds confrontational to pull out my vast experience in RT-free games and claim you're incorrect. Yeah, in ranked or other certain modes where there is 1 TS TK and TP slot the RT getting busted ends the game because 2 TI slots isn't enough for a whole faction- but claimspace isn't exactly provided by random roles. Claimspace is provided by Rifts, which is an umbrella of multiple of the same role or subfaction. If there are four confirmed trappers in a rolelist, and six claims, two are obviously evil but the claimspace is still there. RT do play a part, which is where I think this misconception comes from. RT eases up on all subfactions (and to an extent confirmed) by allowing them to overflow a bit. It's pretty cool, if you ask me, but you can make a TP or (not) TK claim easier in coven than in classic, so using multiple TP and multiple TI and even multiple TK provides ABUNDANT claimspace. In my experience, Jailor and/or RT are usually not very viable. Here, RT will effect the balance of each town subfaction that I have deemed good. Changing out the TK, TI, and TP for RT would lead to possibly less claimspace, just due to the chance of TS. And the TS numbers are already small enough. If you count the claimable TK, TI, and TP slots (7-8)- there is easily enough claimspace for all the coven, and even possibly a fake claim for the traitor, if they want to soak up all coven's claimspace. Also, I apologize for putting the bit about vigilantes in footnotes, It's probably a more major deal and I should have put it here.
"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.

EpicEmperor wrote:Please don't think I meant permanently, they're covered for a night. However, I figured out it's actually a maximum of 5 protected coven members, not four. Here's the lowdown: CL has basic defense and controls a TP into Medusa. 2/3 coven members protected. Necromancer can use a dead TP to protect potion master for a powerful defense. Potion master can heal the Traitor, which could be a TP, but if you really want to push it and are willing to throw out the whole "basic defense or higher" thing you could probably use a transporter. They go on the Necromancer. I understand if you say this is horrendously unlikely because I understand that. I'm not banking on a vigilante killing the whole coven, especially when losing the game by misplaying is on the line. It's just that good vigilantes will be rewarded with Good results, and bad vigilantes with basically lose the game if they mess up bad enough.
This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.

EpicEmperor wrote:That's a flaw I will admit with the list, but it's in tune with my wonderful comparisons with the other chaos modes, who all happen to have worse claimspace than this one somehow, whilst still making room for evils to claim. Also, an issue like that is caused by a bad teammate, instead of the current problems, which include *the game deciding to put the weird sheriff nobody likes on your team,* or *having no KPN at all until the RC Necromancer gets the necronomicon.* I did have an interesting conversation with my associate about Coven's chance of getting shot, and they brought up some good points i'm sure you'd agree with and even bring up- but TK is a requirement under the horrid possibility of traitor mayor or jailor, and when it's not there's a sincere risk of town self destructing, especially if the Traitor is highly skilled, or TownInvestigative. Also, it fills the list up with a very fitting role, leaving room for a moderate TP force and a small TI. the subfactions are proportioned in a way I can't see being changed as of now.
I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.

EpicEmperor wrote:TK indeed could definitely have more KPN than coven. They could sustain it for multiple nights if the vigilantes kill themselves the next night, too. If the vigilantes are expert navy seals that can sniff out magic then coven's inability to beat them is indeed a very deserved loss. Remember what god said unto man? "thou shalt only be able to kill me if you have >2000 elo and all vigilante achievements, so until then, coven wins bb" Also, 4/10 isn't that bad of a chance of being traitor. Even if they roll the weakest one, that's still 1 Vigi 1 Jailor 1 Vet. Would anyone even bat an eye at that? If it ISN'T TK, town can handle it. If it Is, town just stole their TK.
It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?

EpicEmperor wrote:Medium Escort and Trans are also good TS rolls too! Medium hardcounters Medusa, Transporter is honestly more powerful than mayor in a lot of facets, and Escort... Second escort is kind of strange but If played well it could definitely halt a few kills, I guess. It could save CL-discovered vigilantes, which is one of it's main uses.
The point of me saying "god forbid Mayor or Ret" spawns is that 4TK including Jailor is already impossibly powerful. If Ret/Mayor spawns on top of that, Coven basically has no chance unless the entire town is a bunch of troglodytes.

EpicEmperor wrote:I still felt happy when you complimented medusa even though it's the most obvious change to the current list ever lmao. Necro works gr8 with this list, but you were probably just talking about CL Medusa RC RC in the context of the current list, in which it gee golly well may make more sense. If not I'd love to hear why you don't think Necro works.
It's not that Necro doesn't work, but that having it be guaranteed is pretty random and makes it very easy for Town to figure out Coven's exact lineup. Double RC creates more ambiguity for the Town, and more of that chaotic variety goodness for the Coven.

EpicEmperor wrote:(Footnotes)

Sorry if I ever came off as overly sarcastic in some bits, I try to be relatively polite when engaging in persuasion but I am a town of salem player after all.

Thanks again!
Don't worry about it, it's fine.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Sun May 17, 2020 3:05 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~


~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight.

MysticMismagius wrote:"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.


It always seemed to me that half of TS's whole jig was confirmability, and as the functions of support like Roleblocking, Ressurecting and chatting with the same dead that other mediums do were just impossible to make unconfirmable- hence forcing TS to own it. You could have the opinion that it's too easy to confirm, but RT's viability as claimspace isn't effected by that- not that I even believe it is bad claimspace. It's just not the only form of claimspace, and I would say not the best- just because of how unwieldy it is; you can't control any form of how the game goes. You put forward that claiming an RT slot opens up TI, TP, TK, or Even TS. This is true, but the same could go for claiming TI, TP, TK or TS directly. This is responded to when you speak about alignments being more easily counterclaimed. This is also true, but it focuses in on the good sides of RT over the bad sides. Yes, early on when you claim a subfaction and there are real people of that subfaction you get countered immediately. This forces an immediate contest with little information that can end in a dead coven, but also possibly multiple dead town, depending on the number of that subfaction there are in the game. This doesn't work with lone roles or lone randoms because there will only be 1 cc, and even if you win the dispute you will likely die the next day or night. RT does have this problem too, but it resolves endgame, with several more confirmed roles, more information, but a larger pool. The whole town minus unique and confirmed townies are in the pool later in the game once the RT start to fill and overflow. I prefer being able to develop the meta of the game and fix minute issues with deep exploitation of Subfactions, and I think the traitor needs that to balance out issues and inforce a meta that puts traitor at the center. With RT, TI has barely any choice but to be watered down and increased in number. There are six of them crawling around the RT slot and they'll all come out and suddenly force the main aspect of the game (the traitor) to become really swingy. I am not going to argue against RT except in the way that it doesn't help this list more than subfactions do. Defending subfactions from the claim of them making "No Claimspace" is what I am doing.

MysticMismagius wrote:This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.


You could think that, I guess. It certainly could be possible. Some people do think "SHOOT N2" and some of them could even be scumreading wizards who do it well. But both normal and skilled players will probably hold fire, and the chances of what I would assume to be the majority of the coven playerbase getting a good vigi isn't hard. Considering most impulse shooters will cause serious damage to their team, The meta will- given time- form to work with this. This will likely suck on weekends, as all rotating modes do. A good analogy would be Vigis holding fire to Crus on VIP. Rarely, if you break it things will work out. When there's a fake crus, or a coven that stands out too much to keep yourself from attacking. But usually that's not how it'll turn out. Usually people will wait until a claimspace dispute shows up and then shoot based on the results. The coven's job is to defend from the consequences of these claimspace disputes. This is how most games go anyways, just here consequences can happen and be defended from at night, too. Yes, the TKs could decide the game, but because of the usual result of that being a loss, the town will seek to undo the strategies making them lose and eventually heavily discourage rash TK decisions. I can imagine this eventually becoming a "second" sort of lynching, as town discusses who should be shot in the night as much as hung in the day. The TK only have the job of figuring who to trust, who's logic checks out etc. It's like a lever. TK pull the lever, but TI make the lever effective. TP keeps the machine running, and doc can even overrule something's to egregious of a misplay. It's all a well oiled machine, not extraneous. I may be focusing on this a tad too much but just to add extra clarity I have a question; does CL ruin coven? You could genuinely say yes and mean it, but CL is vastly stronger than the other coven. That much is obvious. It gets basic defense from the necronomicon and has a power objectively better than roleblocking, combined with killing after N3. It is in control of all of Coven's KPN, and if it dies early on coven usually follows. Yet CL is in every coven list with coven in it. It is seen to make coven instead of destroying it. Even under the circumstance where TK had complete control over everything, which I find to be less than accurate, there are far more unreasonable things than having 4 TK, a possible and maybe even more balanced outcome in the current ranked rolelist.

MysticMismagius wrote:I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.


Either it's 3 TK with coven having one or the vigilantes are suffering from one of these issues: They're underinformed (TI traitor, Medium), They're inaffective (TP, Trans or Escort), or they're fighting against the mayor.

MysticMismagius wrote:It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?


I feel so dumb, because I meant "Coven can handle it" but wrote town instead for seemingly no reason. My last response thing explains it better than I did in my last post. I'm not banking on a chance, because I simply don't do that. The only time I have has been a list with the Any role in it, in which I was banking on the rolelist not having vampires for it to be good; and even then I admitted that vampires would ruin it. Here what I was trying to say was on the identity of the traitor balancing out the town. If TK looks too strong, I bet 1 TI in the whole 10 person town doesn't. I'd bet coven having their on personal doctor doesn't either. As would I bet a coven mayor doesn't. The point is that if TK isn't the traitor, It being "OP" is just the concession for having a useful traitor taken from them. It being random is what I am banking on.

MysticMismagius wrote:The point of me saying "god forbid Mayor or Ret" spawns is that 4TK including Jailor is already impossibly powerful. If Ret/Mayor spawns on top of that, Coven basically has no chance unless the entire town is a bunch of troglodytes.


lmao you make it sound like there's four TK plus jailor lol that'd be ridiculous. Mayor/Ret does stress out TP a little, though I understand that they are more powerful. But... they always are. Mayor is accounted for. I made sure that Mayor could be countered as coven. Any traitor role could help take mayor out, even TI. (though through TI you will need a bit more skill because it relies off of freestyling off of town's ignorance.) Not hardcountered, I should mention, because that's just... bad? But it can be countered. Making counterplay for ret is impossible. Maybe I should find a way to make this rolelist not have RTS. a Chance of mayor is necessary though because it's like something Achilles demands. However, yeah Ret is broken as heck. Confirms 2 people as not just not coven but also traitor basically. Broken af, but also mostly unfixable. TS for Trans or Medium would be something I would not be opposed to.

MysticMismagius wrote:It's not that Necro doesn't work, but that having it be guaranteed is pretty random and makes it very easy for Town to figure out Coven's exact lineup. Double RC creates more ambiguity for the Town, and more of that chaotic variety goodness for the Coven.


Yeah yeah people love randoms i get it. However, What leads to more new play- A role that is usually undervalued and unusable due to it's extreme situationality getting all the situationality it could ever ask for with a wider variety of actions and choices unseen in other coven gamemodes, or something that decides roles simply by random, so that you don't get to play with said new content in favor of a role you may not have played recently, but have played plenty of times before in a very similar situation. Necro is just a deeper role here than otherwise. What do you mean you made an argument for Double RC's effect on town instead of an argument of replayability? Hogwash. But Town figuring out's coven's lineup isn't that bad when they're taking 1KPN more death, failing their shots on coven, or getting roleblocked. (if that's what your worry was)

The necromancer is more opinion than anything though so make it RC if you really think that's the better choice, I just disagree

MysticMismagius wrote:Don't worry about it, it's fine.


Yeah whatever.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 3:52 pm

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~
~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight.
~Spooky scary skeletons, speak with such a screech...

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.
It always seemed to me that half of TS's whole jig was confirmability, and as the functions of support like Roleblocking, Ressurecting and chatting with the same dead that other mediums do were just impossible to make unconfirmable- hence forcing TS to own it. You could have the opinion that it's too easy to confirm, but RT's viability as claimspace isn't effected by that- not that I even believe it is bad claimspace. It's just not the only form of claimspace, and I would say not the best- just because of how unwieldy it is; you can't control any form of how the game goes. You put forward that claiming an RT slot opens up TI, TP, TK, or Even TS. This is true, but the same could go for claiming TI, TP, TK or TS directly. Not when there's only a few slots left to claim. If there's no RT slot, there's a hard limit on how many people can claim each sub-alignment. This is responded to when you speak about alignments being more easily counterclaimed. This is also true, but it focuses in on the good sides of RT over the bad sides. Yes, early on when you claim a subfaction and there are real people of that subfaction you get countered immediately. This forces an immediate contest with little information that can end in a dead coven, but also possibly multiple dead town, depending on the number of that subfaction there are in the game. This doesn't work with lone roles or lone randoms because there will only be 1 cc, and even if you win the dispute you will likely die the next day or night. RT does have this problem too, but it resolves endgame, with several more confirmed roles, more information, but a larger pool. The whole town minus unique and confirmed townies are in the pool later in the game once the RT start to fill and overflow. I prefer being able to develop the meta of the game and fix minute issues with deep exploitation of Subfactions, and I think the traitor needs that to balance out issues and inforce a meta that puts traitor at the center. With RT, TI has barely any choice but to be watered down and increased in number. There are six of them crawling around the RT slot and they'll all come out and suddenly force the main aspect of the game (the traitor) to become really swingy. I am not going to argue against RT except in the way that it doesn't help this list more than subfactions do. Defending subfactions from the claim of them making "No Claimspace" is what I am doing.
So getting bitch slapped by 1-3 different people ccing you is a feature, not a bug. Interesting. I don't like it, but interesting...

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.
You could think that, I guess. It certainly could be possible. Some people do think "SHOOT N2" and some of them could even be scumreading wizards who do it well. But both normal and skilled players will probably hold fire, and the chances of what I would assume to be the majority of the coven playerbase getting a good vigi isn't hard. Considering most impulse shooters will cause serious damage to their team, The meta will- given time- form to work with this. This will likely suck on weekends, as all rotating modes do. A good analogy would be Vigis holding fire to Crus on VIP. Rarely, if you break it things will work out. When there's a fake crus, or a coven that stands out too much to keep yourself from attacking. But usually that's not how it'll turn out. Usually people will wait until a claimspace dispute shows up and then shoot based on the results. The coven's job is to defend from the consequences of these claimspace disputes. This is how most games go anyways, just here consequences can happen and be defended from at night, too. Yes, the TKs could decide the game, but because of the usual result of that being a loss, the town will seek to undo the strategies making them lose and eventually heavily discourage rash TK decisions. I can imagine this eventually becoming a "second" sort of lynching, as town discusses who should be shot in the night as much as hung in the day. The TK only have the job of figuring who to trust, who's logic checks out etc. It's like a lever. TK pull the lever, but TI make the lever effective. TP keeps the machine running, and doc can even overrule something's to egregious of a misplay. It's all a well oiled machine, not extraneous. I may be focusing on this a tad too much but just to add extra clarity I have a question; does CL ruin coven? You could genuinely say yes and mean it, but CL is vastly stronger than the other coven. That much is obvious. It gets basic defense from the necronomicon and has a power objectively better than roleblocking, combined with killing after N3. It is in control of all of Coven's KPN, and if it dies early on coven usually follows. Yet CL is in every coven list with coven in it. It is seen to make coven instead of destroying it. Even under the circumstance where TK had complete control over everything, which I find to be less than accurate, there are far more unreasonable things than having 4 TK, a possible and maybe even more balanced outcome in the current ranked rolelist.
Skilled players will hold fire until they can be reasonably certain that they've figured out who the Coven is (at which point they can potentially kill all of them at fucking once, including the Traitor,) while shit players... won't. Or they'll hold fire for too long and render themselves useless. That's the problem with 4TK. With so many TKs, if they're good they'll carry the game almost single-handedly, while bad TK will bumble their way to a swift Coven win. Additionally, "there's worse" isn't the high praise you think it is. I can easily write up a role list that's a million times worse than yours, but that just means your list is not the literal worst thing that can possibly be written.

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.
Either it's 3 TK with coven having one or the vigilantes are suffering from one of these issues: They're underinformed (TI traitor, Medium), They're ineffective (TP, Trans or Escort), or they're fighting against the mayor.
Well yes, this is what happens when you inflate the role list with a single sub-alignment and minimize the others... the others are underdeveloped. Still, like I said earlier, TK that's good at scumreading (or can calculate odds well) can still carry while bad TK can still fuck the entire game up.

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?
I feel so dumb, because I meant "Coven can handle it" but wrote town instead for seemingly no reason. My last response thing explains it better than I did in my last post. I'm not banking on a chance, because I simply don't do that. The only time I have has been a list with the Any role in it, in which I was banking on the rolelist not having vampires for it to be good; and even then I admitted that vampires would ruin it. #FuckVampires Here what I was trying to say was on the identity of the traitor balancing out the town. If TK looks too strong, I bet 1 TI in the whole 10 person town doesn't. I'd bet coven having their on personal doctor doesn't either. As would I bet a coven mayor doesn't. The point is that if TK isn't the traitor, it being "OP" is just the concession for having a useful traitor taken from them. It being random is what I am banking on.
So basically you're taking the main thing wrong with Town Traitor right now (the fact that what role the Traitor is significantly impacts the course of the game and can often be the deciding factor for who wins), and... accepting it? Making it worse? Trying in vain to fix it? Idek what you're doing with it but you seem to be acknowledging it in some manner here...

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:The point of me saying "god forbid Mayor or Ret" spawns is that 4TK including Jailor is already impossibly powerful. If Ret/Mayor spawns on top of that, Coven basically has no chance unless the entire town is a bunch of troglodytes.
lmao you make it sound like there's four TK plus jailor lol that'd be ridiculous. Mayor/Ret does stress out TP a little, though I understand that they are more powerful. But... they always are. Mayor is accounted for. I made sure that Mayor could be countered as coven. Any traitor role could help take mayor out, even TI. (though through TI you will need a bit more skill because it relies off of freestyling off of town's ignorance.) Not hardcountered, I should mention, because that's just... bad? But it can be countered. Making counterplay for ret is impossible. Maybe I should find a way to make this rolelist not have RTS. a Chance of mayor is necessary though because it's like something Achilles demands. However, yeah Ret is broken as heck. Confirms 2 people as not just not coven but also traitor basically. Broken af, but also mostly unfixable. TS for Trans or Medium would be something I would not be opposed to.
No, I said 4TK including Jailor. Jailor is categorized as TK.

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not that Necro doesn't work, but that having it be guaranteed is pretty random and makes it very easy for Town to figure out Coven's exact lineup. Double RC creates more ambiguity for the Town, and more of that chaotic variety goodness for the Coven.
Yeah yeah people love randoms i get it. However, What leads to more new play- A role that is usually undervalued and unusable due to it's extreme situationality getting all the situationality it could ever ask for with a wider variety of actions and choices unseen in other coven gamemodes, or something that decides roles simply by random, so that you don't get to play with said new content in favor of a role you may not have played recently, but have played plenty of times before in a very similar situation. Necro is just a deeper role here than otherwise. What do you mean you made an argument for Double RC's effect on town instead of an argument of replayability? Hogwash. But Town figuring out's coven's lineup isn't that bad when they're taking 1KPN more death, failing their shots on coven, or getting roleblocked. (if that's what your worry was)

The necromancer is more opinion than anything though so make it RC if you really think that's the better choice, I just disagree
You see, it took me until now to realize that 4TK with a guaranteed Vigi means Necromancer can basically wreck shop if a Vigilante happens to die early, especially by way of making it look like the Traitor is another Vigilante. So yeah I guess CL/Medusa/Necromancer/RC would work better for your role list, but in general CL/Medusa/RC/RC is better.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Sun May 17, 2020 6:17 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~
~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight.
~Spooky scary skeletons, speak with such a screech...


...You'll shake and shutter there in disguise when you hear these zombies shriek!

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.
It always seemed to me that half of TS's whole jig was confirmability, and as the functions of support like Roleblocking, Ressurecting and chatting with the same dead that other mediums do were just impossible to make unconfirmable- hence forcing TS to own it. You could have the opinion that it's too easy to confirm, but RT's viability as claimspace isn't effected by that- not that I even believe it is bad claimspace. It's just not the only form of claimspace, and I would say not the best- just because of how unwieldy it is; you can't control any form of how the game goes. You put forward that claiming an RT slot opens up TI, TP, TK, or Even TS. This is true, but the same could go for claiming TI, TP, TK or TS directly. Not when there's only a few slots left to claim. If there's no RT slot, there's a hard limit on how many people can claim each sub-alignment. This is responded to when you speak about alignments being more easily counterclaimed. This is also true, but it focuses in on the good sides of RT over the bad sides. Yes, early on when you claim a subfaction and there are real people of that subfaction you get countered immediately. This forces an immediate contest with little information that can end in a dead coven, but also possibly multiple dead town, depending on the number of that subfaction there are in the game. This doesn't work with lone roles or lone randoms because there will only be 1 cc, and even if you win the dispute you will likely die the next day or night. RT does have this problem too, but it resolves endgame, with several more confirmed roles, more information, but a larger pool. The whole town minus unique and confirmed townies are in the pool later in the game once the RT start to fill and overflow. I prefer being able to develop the meta of the game and fix minute issues with deep exploitation of Subfactions, and I think the traitor needs that to balance out issues and inforce a meta that puts traitor at the center. With RT, TI has barely any choice but to be watered down and increased in number. There are six of them crawling around the RT slot and they'll all come out and suddenly force the main aspect of the game (the traitor) to become really swingy. I am not going to argue against RT except in the way that it doesn't help this list more than subfactions do. Defending subfactions from the claim of them making "No Claimspace" is what I am doing.
So getting bitch slapped by 1-3 different people ccing you is a feature, not a bug. Interesting. I don't like it, but interesting...


Yep. I am quite familiar with that. So much so RT is weird for me to look at now. Sue me if it's an acquired taste, it's a good metaphorical flavor that I happen to know a lot of people like and get hooked on real quick. If you don't know how to use coven's votes responsibly to snowball and take out your opponents early on when town has little information, you'll pick it up eventually. This is shown in VIP, the other gamemode I play quite a bit of. I could probably invite you or anyone else to a game that may heavily show these principles. Coven can survive and even thrive under the subfaction model. Normally good town players even fall victim to not wanting to be the odd man out- I would know because i've crushed them under my heel! It's very satisfying. As stated earlier, I see the lategame RT sorting probably as if not more repugnant than you see my model. On the point in the quote you mentioned: Yes, there is a limit. If too many claim one subfaction then It stops being worth the effort or risk to make the claim. However, in this exact context every coven can claim a fake claim and there will be a 2 to 1 ratio of unconfirmed townies to coven- which is MORE than enough due to how judging conflicting claims takes time that is not spent getting more claims but rather making a decision. There are no immediate CCs in RT games, so town can collect this information. Only in whispers can town pick up information with a confrontation taking up chat, because you can simply not claim and instead focus on the center of attention. Even townies do that, so coven "getting away with it" is not differentiable from town's reaction to such a confrontation. I have enough experience to say this happens essentially every time, and the only times it doesn't is when one person within the dispute is pathetic in comparison to their opponent. That usually results in said person getting hung immediately. Whilst they struggle and fail at defending themselves. This may seem like it overwhelms the traitor aspect of the game, but I assure you this doesn't overwhelm the game any more than a typical RT role-collecting fashioned game goes- it's simply a different playstyle.

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.
You could think that, I guess. It certainly could be possible. Some people do think "SHOOT N2" and some of them could even be scumreading wizards who do it well. But both normal and skilled players will probably hold fire, and the chances of what I would assume to be the majority of the coven playerbase getting a good vigi isn't hard. Considering most impulse shooters will cause serious damage to their team, The meta will- given time- form to work with this. This will likely suck on weekends, as all rotating modes do. A good analogy would be Vigis holding fire to Crus on VIP. Rarely, if you break it things will work out. When there's a fake crus, or a coven that stands out too much to keep yourself from attacking. But usually that's not how it'll turn out. Usually people will wait until a claimspace dispute shows up and then shoot based on the results. The coven's job is to defend from the consequences of these claimspace disputes. This is how most games go anyways, just here consequences can happen and be defended from at night, too. Yes, the TKs could decide the game, but because of the usual result of that being a loss, the town will seek to undo the strategies making them lose and eventually heavily discourage rash TK decisions. I can imagine this eventually becoming a "second" sort of lynching, as town discusses who should be shot in the night as much as hung in the day. The TK only have the job of figuring who to trust, who's logic checks out etc. It's like a lever. TK pull the lever, but TI make the lever effective. TP keeps the machine running, and doc can even overrule something's to egregious of a misplay. It's all a well oiled machine, not extraneous. I may be focusing on this a tad too much but just to add extra clarity I have a question; does CL ruin coven? You could genuinely say yes and mean it, but CL is vastly stronger than the other coven. That much is obvious. It gets basic defense from the necronomicon and has a power objectively better than roleblocking, combined with killing after N3. It is in control of all of Coven's KPN, and if it dies early on coven usually follows. Yet CL is in every coven list with coven in it. It is seen to make coven instead of destroying it. Even under the circumstance where TK had complete control over everything, which I find to be less than accurate, there are far more unreasonable things than having 4 TK, a possible and maybe even more balanced outcome in the current ranked rolelist.
Skilled players will hold fire until they can be reasonably certain that they've figured out who the Coven is (at which point they can potentially kill all of them at fucking once, including the Traitor,) while shit players... won't. Or they'll hold fire for too long and render themselves useless. That's the problem with 4TK. With so many TKs, if they're good they'll carry the game almost single-handedly, while bad TK will bumble their way to a swift Coven win. Additionally, "there's worse" isn't the high praise you think it is. I can easily write up a role list that's a million times worse than yours, but that just means your list is not the literal worst thing that can possibly be written.


I was comparing 4 TK's swing to CL. And I love CL. Most people do. If you don't, that's fine- I was just claiming that it's the same even if it was an issue of power imbalance, that function of the list isn't even as extreme as some other power imbalances that are in many other official and unofficial setups alike. when looking at 4 TK, We are looking at four separate players. I can't imagine you could actually think all four or even Jailor/Vigis could reasonably be all waiting a fair amount of the game to take unhindered undisputed correct shots? You later referred the factors hindering such a decision as some derivative of "underdeveloped subalignments" without (from what I thought you were saying, correct me if i'm wrong) affirming my claim that the other subfactions support the TK. If you don't support that, say so. If you do, I would say with near complete confidence that any lack of power in those departments will weaken TK to the point where it won't be overpowered. Also, I can see this being responded to with something along the lines of "Then how many of the TK are good determines who wins" Which would be entirely fair! if all of the TK can find and kill all four coven members without being protected at all from the coven, without any information on who the coven are besides scumreading that will likely not be possible because everyone's too incompetent to talk but the people who are TK, who will get owned by the Coven for being competent. Or maybe if all of the TK suck and kill the whole town, which would never happen in any other mode because TK are weak babies there who can't effectively make half of the town disappear (Jailor+TK Combo townkill bonus!!!!)

That last part was a bit less decipherable than it was meant to be, so tl;dr If the TK are good and the town sucks coven still wins and if the TK sucks and the town is great town (nearly) ALWAYS loses in any game with even 2 TK in it, because TK works that way.

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.
Either it's 3 TK with coven having one or the vigilantes are suffering from one of these issues: They're underinformed (TI traitor, Medium), They're ineffective (TP, Trans or Escort), or they're fighting against the mayor.
Well yes, this is what happens when you inflate the role list with a single sub-alignment and minimize the others... the others are underdeveloped. Still, like I said earlier, TK that's good at scumreading (or can calculate odds well) can still carry while bad TK can still fuck the entire game up.


The point here is explained earlier for the most part, but to reiterate: The "underdevelopment" you see here is a natural way to balance out TK and make them worse by extension of having no support. If everyone but TP sucked in VIP mode, town would fall apart. This is very similar to what's going on here. Also, there's one less TP than there is TK! One of the main reason I don't approve of the edit the other person gave with 1 more TP was because 4 TP wouldn't fit with the list as well as a four TK would.

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?
I feel so dumb, because I meant "Coven can handle it" but wrote town instead for seemingly no reason. My last response thing explains it better than I did in my last post. I'm not banking on a chance, because I simply don't do that. The only time I have has been a list with the Any role in it, in which I was banking on the rolelist not having vampires for it to be good; and even then I admitted that vampires would ruin it. #FuckVampires Tarnation yeah! Here what I was trying to say was on the identity of the traitor balancing out the town. If TK looks too strong, I bet 1 TI in the whole 10 person town doesn't. I'd bet coven having their on personal doctor doesn't either. As would I bet a coven mayor doesn't. The point is that if TK isn't the traitor, it being "OP" is just the concession for having a useful traitor taken from them. It being random is what I am banking on.
So basically you're taking the main thing wrong with Town Traitor right now (the fact that what role the Traitor is significantly impacts the course of the game and can often be the deciding factor for who wins), and... accepting it? Making it worse? Trying in vain to fix it? Idek what you're doing with it but you seem to be acknowledging it in some manner here...


I don't really understand what you're saying here. I was making the claim that whoever the traitor picks is strong enough to combat the four TK you seemed so weary of. The only way I "accepted" the swing of the traitor is by accepting that it exists and needs to be fixed. It's not in vain to do such a thing, which I think is why you didn't mind the Dual TI method of combating Traitor swing. If that doesn't explain what you were seeing, Highlighting what gave you that Idea for me would help increase clarity here.

I didn't include the last two because they seemed to be devoid of things we disagreed on. Everything seemed pretty cleared up- Though if you had anything else to say you can bring it back up at any time.

As much as I enjoy this conversation, I kind of hope we continue clearing things up to the point that we're just reciting spooky scary skeletons to each other.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Sun May 17, 2020 7:23 pm

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~
~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight.
~Spooky scary skeletons, speak with such a screech...
...You'll shake and shutter there in disguise when you hear these zombies shriek!
We're so sorry, skeletons, you're so misunderstood~

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.
It always seemed to me that half of TS's whole jig was confirmability, and as the functions of support like Roleblocking, Ressurecting and chatting with the same dead that other mediums do were just impossible to make unconfirmable- hence forcing TS to own it. You could have the opinion that it's too easy to confirm, but RT's viability as claimspace isn't effected by that- not that I even believe it is bad claimspace. It's just not the only form of claimspace, and I would say not the best- just because of how unwieldy it is; you can't control any form of how the game goes. You put forward that claiming an RT slot opens up TI, TP, TK, or Even TS. This is true, but the same could go for claiming TI, TP, TK or TS directly. Not when there's only a few slots left to claim. If there's no RT slot, there's a hard limit on how many people can claim each sub-alignment. This is responded to when you speak about alignments being more easily counterclaimed. This is also true, but it focuses in on the good sides of RT over the bad sides. Yes, early on when you claim a subfaction and there are real people of that subfaction you get countered immediately. This forces an immediate contest with little information that can end in a dead coven, but also possibly multiple dead town, depending on the number of that subfaction there are in the game. This doesn't work with lone roles or lone randoms because there will only be 1 cc, and even if you win the dispute you will likely die the next day or night. RT does have this problem too, but it resolves endgame, with several more confirmed roles, more information, but a larger pool. The whole town minus unique and confirmed townies are in the pool later in the game once the RT start to fill and overflow. I prefer being able to develop the meta of the game and fix minute issues with deep exploitation of Subfactions, and I think the traitor needs that to balance out issues and inforce a meta that puts traitor at the center. With RT, TI has barely any choice but to be watered down and increased in number. There are six of them crawling around the RT slot and they'll all come out and suddenly force the main aspect of the game (the traitor) to become really swingy. I am not going to argue against RT except in the way that it doesn't help this list more than subfactions do. Defending subfactions from the claim of them making "No Claimspace" is what I am doing.
So getting bitch slapped by 1-3 different people ccing you is a feature, not a bug. Interesting. I don't like it, but interesting...
Yep. I am quite familiar with that. So much so RT is weird for me to look at now. Sue me if it's an acquired taste, it's a good metaphorical flavor that I happen to know a lot of people like and get hooked on real quick. If you don't know how to use coven's votes responsibly to snowball and take out your opponents early on when town has little information, you'll pick it up eventually. This is shown in VIP, the other gamemode I play quite a bit of. I could probably invite you or anyone else to a game that may heavily show these principles. Coven can survive and even thrive under the subfaction model. Normally good town players even fall victim to not wanting to be the odd man out- I would know because i've crushed them under my heel! It's very satisfying. As stated earlier, I see the lategame RT sorting probably as if not more repugnant than you see my model. On the point in the quote you mentioned: Yes, there is a limit. If too many claim one subfaction then It stops being worth the effort or risk to make the claim. However, in this exact context every coven can claim a fake claim and there will be a 2 to 1 ratio of unconfirmed townies to coven- which is MORE than enough due to how judging conflicting claims takes time that is not spent getting more claims but rather making a decision. There are no immediate CCs in RT games, so town can collect this information. Only in whispers can town pick up information with a confrontation taking up chat, because you can simply not claim and instead focus on the center of attention. Even townies do that, so coven "getting away with it" is not differentiable from town's reaction to such a confrontation. I have enough experience to say this happens essentially every time, and the only times it doesn't is when one person within the dispute is pathetic in comparison to their opponent. That usually results in said person getting hung immediately. Whilst they struggle and fail at defending themselves. This may seem like it overwhelms the traitor aspect of the game, but I assure you this doesn't overwhelm the game any more than a typical RT role-collecting fashioned game goes- it's simply a different playstyle.
At this point we're going to have to agree to disagree on the presence/absence of RT. You're prioritizing getting townies mislynched at the likely expense of your life, but a part of claim space is also surviving at the end of the day: something that the Coven still needs to do as Town Traitor can't win alone. This is why I say RT helps with claim space: because I want to create room for Coven to claim something and still survive, which is a lot harder to do without RT. Yet, this is purely an issue of that priority: if you prioritize creating conflicts where the Coven will inevitably die but possibly take some townies down with them, then your RT-less setup does very well at that.

EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.
You could think that, I guess. It certainly could be possible. Some people do think "SHOOT N2" and some of them could even be scumreading wizards who do it well. But both normal and skilled players will probably hold fire, and the chances of what I would assume to be the majority of the coven playerbase getting a good vigi isn't hard. Considering most impulse shooters will cause serious damage to their team, The meta will- given time- form to work with this. This will likely suck on weekends, as all rotating modes do. A good analogy would be Vigis holding fire to Crus on VIP. Rarely, if you break it things will work out. When there's a fake crus, or a coven that stands out too much to keep yourself from attacking. But usually that's not how it'll turn out. Usually people will wait until a claimspace dispute shows up and then shoot based on the results. The coven's job is to defend from the consequences of these claimspace disputes. This is how most games go anyways, just here consequences can happen and be defended from at night, too. Yes, the TKs could decide the game, but because of the usual result of that being a loss, the town will seek to undo the strategies making them lose and eventually heavily discourage rash TK decisions. I can imagine this eventually becoming a "second" sort of lynching, as town discusses who should be shot in the night as much as hung in the day. The TK only have the job of figuring who to trust, who's logic checks out etc. It's like a lever. TK pull the lever, but TI make the lever effective. TP keeps the machine running, and doc can even overrule something's to egregious of a misplay. It's all a well oiled machine, not extraneous. I may be focusing on this a tad too much but just to add extra clarity I have a question; does CL ruin coven? You could genuinely say yes and mean it, but CL is vastly stronger than the other coven. That much is obvious. It gets basic defense from the necronomicon and has a power objectively better than roleblocking, combined with killing after N3. It is in control of all of Coven's KPN, and if it dies early on coven usually follows. Yet CL is in every coven list with coven in it. It is seen to make coven instead of destroying it. Even under the circumstance where TK had complete control over everything, which I find to be less than accurate, there are far more unreasonable things than having 4 TK, a possible and maybe even more balanced outcome in the current ranked rolelist.
Skilled players will hold fire until they can be reasonably certain that they've figured out who the Coven is (at which point they can potentially kill all of them at fucking once, including the Traitor,) while shit players... won't. Or they'll hold fire for too long and render themselves useless. That's the problem with 4TK. With so many TKs, if they're good they'll carry the game almost single-handedly, while bad TK will bumble their way to a swift Coven win. Additionally, "there's worse" isn't the high praise you think it is. I can easily write up a role list that's a million times worse than yours, but that just means your list is not the literal worst thing that can possibly be written.
I was comparing 4 TK's swing to CL. And I love CL. Most people do. If you don't, that's fine- I was just claiming that it's the same even if it was an issue of power imbalance, that function of the list isn't even as extreme as some other power imbalances that are in many other official and unofficial setups alike. when looking at 4 TK, We are looking at four separate players. I can't imagine you could actually think all four or even Jailor/Vigis could reasonably be all waiting a fair amount of the game to take unhindered undisputed correct shots? You later referred the factors hindering such a decision as some derivative of "underdeveloped subalignments" without (from what I thought you were saying, correct me if i'm wrong) affirming my claim that the other subfactions support the TK. If you don't support that, say so. If you do, I would say with near complete confidence that any lack of power in those departments will weaken TK to the point where it won't be overpowered. Also, I can see this being responded to with something along the lines of "Then how many of the TK are good determines who wins" Which would be entirely fair! if all of the TK can find and kill all four coven members without being protected at all from the coven, without any information on who the coven are besides scumreading that will likely not be possible because everyone's too incompetent to talk but the people who are TK, who will get owned by the Coven for being competent. Or maybe if all of the TK suck and kill the whole town, which would never happen in any other mode because TK are weak babies there who can't effectively make half of the town disappear (Jailor+TK Combo townkill bonus!!!!)

That last part was a bit less decipherable than it was meant to be, so tl;dr If the TK are good and the town sucks coven still wins and if the TK sucks and the town is great town (nearly) ALWAYS loses in any game with even 2 TK in it, because TK works that way.
I mean I've met far more than 4 Vigilantes/Jailors in my time playing who would do this
So theoretically if all of them ended up on the same game then it's possible for all four TK to be that shitty
And that would definitely ruin a game, which is kinda my point
TK carry almost all the weight here

But from this part of the quote
EpicEmperor wrote:Also, I can see this being responded to with something along the lines of "Then how many of the TK are good determines who wins" Which would be entirely fair! if all of the TK can find and kill all four coven members without being protected at all from the coven, without any information on who the coven are besides scumreading that will likely not be possible because everyone's too incompetent to talk but the people who are TK, who will get owned by the Coven for being competent.
you seem to be implying that this is by design or at least not a dealbreaker for you

I also don't think that CL, a single role, is anywhere near as swingy as four very powerful TK roles


EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.
Either it's 3 TK with coven having one or the vigilantes are suffering from one of these issues: They're underinformed (TI traitor, Medium), They're ineffective (TP, Trans or Escort), or they're fighting against the mayor.
Well yes, this is what happens when you inflate the role list with a single sub-alignment and minimize the others... the others are underdeveloped. Still, like I said earlier, TK that's good at scumreading (or can calculate odds well) can still carry while bad TK can still fuck the entire game up.
The point here is explained earlier for the most part, but to reiterate: The "underdevelopment" you see here is a natural way to balance out TK and make them worse by extension of having no support. If everyone but TP sucked in VIP mode, town would fall apart. This is very similar to what's going on here. Also, there's one less TP than there is TK! One of the main reason I don't approve of the edit the other person gave with 1 more TP was because 4 TP wouldn't fit with the list as well as a four TK would.
Or in short... you've created Little Mac as a role list. If you've ever played Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS (Sm4sh), you'd probably understand why this is a problem. For those who don't: Little Mac was designed so that he'd be a monstrous powerhouse on the ground, but absolutely ineffectual in the air. In the early days of Sm4sh this lead to Little Mac being incredibly OP, because despite Nintendo's efforts to balance his strengths out by making him bad at air fighting, Little Mac's ground game was just so good that it didn't matter. Later on, as Sm4sh's meta developed, the ability to fight well in the air became a lot more important, and Little Mac, who "ain't no air fighter," instantly plummeted in usage. He went straight from being OP to being terrible because of the slightest shift in Sm4sh's metagame. Notice how at no point was Little Mac ever considered "balanced".

If you're saying the underdeveloped town outside of TK will balance out the overwhelming presence of TK, then you are designing this role list with the same philosophy that Nintendo had when designing Little Mac in Sm4sh. The smallest hiccup in metagame or difference in skill between players will throw the whole thing off because the "balance" you have created here is a house of cards. It's precarious, relying on pretty much ideal situations for games not to be a crushing rout in one direction or another.


EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?
I feel so dumb, because I meant "Coven can handle it" but wrote town instead for seemingly no reason. My last response thing explains it better than I did in my last post. I'm not banking on a chance, because I simply don't do that. The only time I have has been a list with the Any role in it, in which I was banking on the rolelist not having vampires for it to be good; and even then I admitted that vampires would ruin it. #FuckVampires Tarnation yeah! Here what I was trying to say was on the identity of the traitor balancing out the town. If TK looks too strong, I bet 1 TI in the whole 10 person town doesn't. I'd bet coven having their own personal doctor doesn't either. Potion Master says hello, btw As would I bet a coven mayor doesn't. The point is that if TK isn't the traitor, it being "OP" is just the concession for having a useful traitor taken from them. It being random is what I am banking on.
So basically you're taking the main thing wrong with Town Traitor right now (the fact that what role the Traitor is significantly impacts the course of the game and can often be the deciding factor for who wins), and... accepting it? Making it worse? Trying in vain to fix it? Idek what you're doing with it but you seem to be acknowledging it in some manner here...
I don't really understand what you're saying here. I was making the claim that whoever the traitor picks is strong enough to combat the four TK you seemed so weary of. The only way I "accepted" the swing of the traitor is by accepting that it exists and needs to be fixed. It's not in vain to do such a thing, which I think is why you didn't mind the Dual TI method of combating Traitor swing. If that doesn't explain what you were seeing, Highlighting what gave you that Idea for me would help increase clarity here.
Idrk either. I noticed that you seemed to be taking into account the problem with TT that I had mentioned, but I think I was just confused, as I had no idea where you were going with it. You have clarified that you are trying to fix it so let's go with that.

I say "in vain" because this problem is not something that can be fixed by a role list, unless you want to make that role list absolutely terrible in every other facet. It's a problem that has more to do with the balance between roles (which is all over the place no matter the sub-alignment), rather than which roles and sub-alignments can spawn. I commend the effort, but this is not the way.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Mon May 18, 2020 8:48 am

MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:
MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~
~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight!
~Spooky scary skeletons, speak with such a screech...
...You'll shake and shutter there in disguise when you hear these zombies shriek!
We're so sorry, skeletons, you're so misunderstood~


~You only want to socialize (But I don't think we should!)

MysticMasmagius wrote:At this point we're going to have to agree to disagree on the presence/absence of RT. You're prioritizing getting townies mislynched at the likely expense of your life, but a part of claim space is also surviving at the end of the day: something that the Coven still needs to do as Town Traitor can't win alone. This is why I say RT helps with claim space: because I want to create room for Coven to claim something and still survive, which is a lot harder to do without RT. Yet, this is purely an issue of that priority: if you prioritize creating conflicts where the Coven will inevitably die but possibly take some townies down with them, then your RT-less setup does very well at that.


A part of claimspace is surviving as a faction, yes. However, my point stands that subfactions can work over RT and as much as you have your own opinion and speak of it as if it's this immensely likely problem that coven will get hung really early when town utterly destroys coven in every single CC dispute imaginable, and will be killed right after by all of the TK that are somehow not in the disputes enough to be abused by CL or killed, but are involved enough to kill the whole coven in a single night. This seems extremely likely. The opinion of wanting to make it through a game without risk in the early game in favor of a more lategame strategy is fine. If you want to put it as "conflicts where the coven will inevitably die but possibly take some townies down with them" then I could with just as much reason call RT "twiddling your thumbs until the lategame where you duke it out with 4 confirmed townies for the last confirmed RT" Neither is realistic or even close to a depiction of the game. I know this because I have played both of these a lot. I find it likely you're just speculating on how something will go based on your head when It's very likely just a stigma developed by maybe one VIP game where coven sucked, or a Classic custom game where town was plagued with other flaws. I only think this because the Image you're describing here is vastly different from anything I have ever experienced. I can't even remember the last time I lost a CC dispute in a Subfaction game. Only in an RT game where town had more info.

MysticMasmagius wrote:I mean I've met far more than 4 Vigilantes/Jailors in my time playing who would do this
So theoretically if all of them ended up on the same game then it's possible for all four TK to be that shitty
And that would definitely ruin a game, which is kinda my point
TK carry almost all the weight here


If you're countering me with the chance that the four vigis bad enough to lose the game that you have met before could hypothetically join and make the game end, that is ridiculous. My point for that was that 4 TK ruining the game is fine because 2 do it in loads of other circumstances. Yes, this is "There's worse" but what I'm saying is "It isn't worse than rolelists with 2 TK because of it's TK #, making it par for the course." Call it unbalanced, but if it is it's a concession made by ranked, and even then has likely seldom gets complaints. I hope your argument doesn't hinge on stupid extremes here that count for very little of the actual gameplay. Nevermind the fact that my TK being skilled example was a loss that you didn't seem to object. I urge you to if you do disagree. One in a hundred games can be ruined by one person. TK is responsible for most of that. Here, there are four. Having even one be good makes it salvagable! you need twice the bad luck than in modes with 2 TK. The responsibility is spread MORE evenly than with less TK'd games. A Good TK can clean up more messes than two others started, and in no other mode than one with this many TK could 3 Bad TK even be recovered from in the slightest Short of turtling up in a TP chain.

TK carrying all the wait would depend on if they decide the outcome of the game, but they can only decide to immediately make town lose, and that has always been an option for TK. That's why TK practice moderation.

MysticMasmagius wrote:
EpicEmperor wrote:Also, I can see this being responded to with something along the lines of "Then how many of the TK are good determines who wins" Which would be entirely fair! if all of the TK can find and kill all four coven members without being protected at all from the coven, without any information on who the coven are besides scumreading that will likely not be possible because everyone's too incompetent to talk but the people who are TK, who will get owned by the Coven for being competent.


you seem to be implying that this is by design or at least not a dealbreaker for you

I also don't think that CL, a single role, is anywhere near as swingy as four very powerful TK roles


This part was meant to poke fun at the Idea that four skilled TK could realistically win. Slowly as I went through the conditions of a 4 TK just winning I revealed how much luck or mistakes on coven's part it would take for that to be at all realistic. Just because TK can kill a little faster than coven doesn't mean they can have enough skill to be completely accurate. If that much skill exists in the idea of scumreading, without any luck involved (the difference between a quiet townie and a quiet coven is effectively 0 here) then they deserve the win for being able to wrinkle the fourth dimension to look at other people's screens. Either Coven is also bad, in which town deserves the win, or the rest of the town is good enough to make TK+town good enough to take on coven, or TKs are omniscient. Choose one, they all end in a balanced rolelist giving the deserved winner the win.

MysticMasmagius wrote:Or in short... you've created Little Mac as a role list. If you've ever played Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS (Sm4sh), you'd probably understand why this is a problem. For those who don't: Little Mac was designed so that he'd be a monstrous powerhouse on the ground, but absolutely ineffectual in the air. In the early days of Sm4sh this lead to Little Mac being incredibly OP, because despite Nintendo's efforts to balance his strengths out by making him bad at air fighting, Little Mac's ground game was just so good that it didn't matter. Later on, as Sm4sh's meta developed, the ability to fight well in the air became a lot more important, and Little Mac, who "ain't no air fighter," instantly plummeted in usage. He went straight from being OP to being terrible because of the slightest shift in Sm4sh's metagame. Notice how at no point was Little Mac ever considered "balanced".

If you're saying the underdeveloped town outside of TK will balance out the overwhelming presence of TK, then you are designing this role list with the same philosophy that Nintendo had when designing Little Mac in Sm4sh. The smallest hiccup in metagame or difference in skill between players will throw the whole thing off because the "balance" you have created here is a house of cards. It's precarious, relying on pretty much ideal situations for games not to be a crushing rout in one direction or another.


I'm going to put this right at the beginning so I know you've read it and can answer it: Do you admit that the other roles support TK in a valuable manner than indisputably effects the outcome of the game subtantially? That's a key question. Non-rhetorical. You didn't respond after I mentioned you didn't affirm it last post so I'm putting this here so you are required to submit an answer. It can be a complex answer or a simple yes or no, but if you don't respond I can't tell what you're saying. I'm lead to believe you'd disagree, but I want to make sure I'm understanding you properly. I am not dodging your argument here, I am just trying to understand it better so I don't attack a strawman.

(Potion Master says hello, btw)

Potion Master either says hello because she sold her soul to the devil and stopped using her necronomicon to kill every night, or she's developed a time travel potion and is coming back in time to heal her coven when her potions are still refreshing.

MysticMasmagius wrote:I say "in vain" because this problem is not something that can be fixed by a role list, unless you want to make that role list absolutely terrible in every other facet. It's a problem that has more to do with the balance between roles (which is all over the place no matter the sub-alignment), rather than which roles and sub-alignments can spawn. I commend the effort, but this is not the way.


It seemed to click together very well for me, It seems actually pretty exceptional in most other habits from my observations. And from what I've seen my rolelist has fixed it, so I can only really guess you're claiming it's terrible in every other facet? At least one of those facets was your opinion, so I'll likely take it with a grain of salt unless you can elaborate further or correct some mistake in my argument or list I have not spotted.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby kyuss420 » Tue May 19, 2020 3:56 am

2nd problem with your list - How does necromancer use a stoned TP?

Major problem with your list -
so CL gets a 3 in 10 chance of sending a vigi to medusa n1/n2, 1 in 10 chance of sending escort to medusa n1/2, 2 in 10 chance of hitting a non visiting role n1
thats 6 outta 10 roles (if not more) that will fuck the coven over by controlling n1 and n2, hope CL can pick a TI or a TP. Best case 5 roles can be safely controlled, worst case only the crusader will die to medusa n1 (jailor,escort,vig, --TS spawns mayor, ret, medium, escort, trans-- --TI spawns 2 psychics-- --TP spawns 2 trappers-- --TK spawns vet,vig--)
best case - 2 visiting TIs and 2 visiting TPs will spawn, with set crusader on the role list...(which kinda makes necro useless becuase TPs will be stoned) giving CL a 50/50 shot at a kill n1 (if they wanna risk a 30% chance of blasting medusa with a vigi), thats only 5 roles that can die n1, in a best case scenario. On average i think at least 1 trapper will spawn, more often than not.

At that rate having a permanent medusa is kinda moot, as chances are highly unlikely that controlling anyone to them would be beneficial n1, and only slightly more beneficial n2

there really is no reason for a permanent escort
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Tue May 19, 2020 9:56 pm

What Medusa? I WOULD NEVER MAKE A MISTAKE IN MY ROLELIST, No sir-ee.

Jailor
Escort
Crusader
Vigilante
Transporter
TownInvestigative
TownInvestigative
TownProtective
TownProtective
TownKilling
TownKilling

Coven Leader
Necromancer
Potion Master
RandomCoven


I joke. I should have known it would be you to spot a problem in my rolelist and I accept that you did find one! I thought about my justifications for using medusa- they are weaker than my reasoning every other role in the game, matter of fact! Even Escort, though I'll get to that later. My friend tried pointing this out to me when I gave it to them, saying they didn't like the 3/10 chance of CL/Medusa getting owned- but I overlooked it by thinking "Well that means 7/10 not huhah" like an idiot. I didn't think of how few town will likely be active visiting roles that can be used. I immediately looked to my reasoning behind medusa as a response to this, and it even seemed to make sense that Medusa was a steady option for CL to rely on if needed and turn off of in favor of Info/TK gathering. However, that is a weak defense, when Medusa could just be another RC that provides an extra killing option. PM or Poisoner suits it better. PM is generally more trustworthy than Poisoner, because hardcounters suck. Also, PM gives coven much needed protection, a guaranteed kill, and some Investigative ability- which is also useful in reference OF medusa. I could see a PM scouting out N1 so CL knows weather to catch a TI for claimspace, abuse a TK for the thrill of it, or leave it for PM to take out on N1. Honestly a wonderful choice I was extremely satisfied with once revealed to me. Far better than Medusa. However, if the rolelist is going to be some abomination that takes my rolelist into account but doesn't use it, or if they only add a few more changes to the current rolelist (for whatever reason...?) Then medusa is probably superior there. However, without medusa, Medium makes TS super swingy. Now Medium has no information to withhold if traitor, so a RTS doesn't work. If Devs look at this you can pretend escort is Mayor or something, because I know you want Mayor and Jailor there even though it's simply not realistic balance-wise. No due offense, it's just so hard to work with. Permanent escort however does have actual reasoning behind it; It's good for TK and Necromancer, portions I wanted to be a bit more exaggerated in this mode than in other ones.

This new list has more room for CL reading and overall strategy, along with better options for Necro now that stoned roles won't cause such issues.

Thank you for finding a flaw in my list, I'm glad to grill out an imperfection. Do you see any other problems with the list?
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Wed May 20, 2020 5:22 pm

Thank you everyone who has participated in role list discussions for TT and CTT. I have updated the role list multiple times according to the feedback we received. I believe the current role lists on the PTR are a great start for a phase 1 release.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed May 20, 2020 6:30 pm

Best of luck!
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Transcender » Fri May 22, 2020 7:50 am

hopefully thisll be more balanced than the other gimmick modes because the coven ones, especially vip nearly always have town win and in dp ive never seen a town win
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Tue May 26, 2020 2:32 pm

Descender wrote:hopefully thisll be more balanced than the other gimmick modes because the coven ones, especially vip nearly always have town win and in dp ive never seen a town win

They do seem open to further changes after it goes live, if necessary. :)
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Nightwhisper13 » Fri May 29, 2020 9:56 am

Sounds great, but please, can we make it so the person who is Town Traitor has a signifier that they are Town Traitor? I can see a lot of false reports saying "they were gamethrowing!" when it was actually the traitor.
It's a problem with VIP (maybe not in the exact context I provided, but still) where the VIP isn't explicitly mentioned and it would be nice to know.
Hello I suck at this game
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri May 29, 2020 11:46 am

The traitor already flips red/purple so you know they were traitor when they die
Trial also shows who Traitor is in a report:
Image
What you describe is just an issue of people reporting prematurely, before realizing who the perceived "thrower" is, which cannot be prevented
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Transcender » Fri May 29, 2020 12:07 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:The traitor already flips red/purple so you know they were traitor when they die
Trial also shows who Traitor is in a report:
Image
What you describe is just an issue of people reporting prematurely, before realizing who the perceived "thrower" is, which cannot be prevented

wdym they flip red/purple
theyll be red right
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Fri May 29, 2020 12:09 pm

Descender wrote:wdym they flip red/purple
theyll be red right
Red if Maf, purple if Coven
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Transcender » Fri May 29, 2020 12:11 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Descender wrote:wdym they flip red/purple
theyll be red right
Red if Maf, purple if Coven

ohhhh
yeah they should know then lol
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Lewisfaisal4869 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:20 am

I well, truly and utterly think Town Traitor needs a Jester. Maybe switch the "Witch" slot for "Neutral Evil"?
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby boblong2018 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:00 pm

Witch is bad in tt mode because witch has to die to activate tt countdown , sometimes mafia even write in their will that witch should leave to their tt can win....
I suggest replacing witch with jester so jester's lynch can benefit tt countdown
If you disagree with me , pls reply .
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed Aug 05, 2020 7:25 am

I disagree with you
Image
Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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