Town Traitor Role List Discussion

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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 11, 2020 3:21 pm

There's an extra slot there, buddy
Also Traitor takes up a town slot, it's not a role in and of itself
ALSO also, try to avoid writing up lists that have currently non-existent elements in them
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby kyuss420 » Mon May 11, 2020 6:22 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:There's an extra slot there, buddy
Also Traitor takes up a town slot, it's not a role in and of itself
ALSO also, try to avoid writing up lists that have currently non-existent elements in them


I like how they add ALL of the most powerful town roles, in a list where the evil factions give up a lot of power (1 whole member!) in place of a random town slot... so town get 2 kills per day/night while maf only get 1....may as well remove voting from the game at this point, and just add 2 jailors lol.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Mon May 11, 2020 6:23 pm

Making some role list tweaks that should be a step in the right direction. Keep in mind that nothing is final and I am reading your feedback to make incremental improvements. Additionally since this patch includes a lot of WebGL/HTML5 stuff it is likely to be on PTR for a bit for heavy testing.

Reading this thread did give me an idea though. There COULD be an argument for having a chance for more than 1 Traitor. Such as 1-2 Traitors with a 50% chance of having a second Traitor. Could add an extra spin on the game mode if you aren't sure if there is a second Traitor.

New Classic Town Traitor List:
SHERIFF
JAILOR
DOCTOR
LOOKOUT
MAYOR
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
GODFATHER
MAFIOSO
RANDOM_MAFIA
WITCH

Coven Town Traitor Role List:
SHERIFF
JAILOR
CRUSADER
TRACKER
MAYOR
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
COVEN_LEADER
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon May 11, 2020 6:31 pm

I think dropping Exe is definitely the right move

I'd be okay with the idea of two town traitors with this list, but I'm afraid that increasing the chances of things like Traitor!Mayor is not going to help reduce the current problem with swing

At least the "no room for X claim" spam will take a little bit longer to start, that'll help
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon May 11, 2020 6:35 pm

Although I guess the main issue with that is that all the Mafia have died first in most of my TT games thus far

So I'm not sure the ambiguity is really there enough to justify the swing

I'd rather drop Witch and make it always two traitors if we can fix some of the blatantly overpowered ones, that sounds really fun - I don't inherently dislike the distrust factor of a random second one, but I think that will contribute to making some games in this mode feel incredibly unfair rather than helping it, which is currently my largest issue with the mode
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 11, 2020 7:33 pm

Achilles wrote:Making some role list tweaks that should be a step in the right direction. Keep in mind that nothing is final and I am reading your feedback to make incremental improvements. Additionally since this patch includes a lot of WebGL/HTML5 stuff it is likely to be on PTR for a bit for heavy testing.

Reading this thread did give me an idea though. There COULD be an argument for having a chance for more than 1 Traitor. Such as 1-2 Traitors with a 50% chance of having a second Traitor. Could add an extra spin on the game mode if you aren't sure if there is a second Traitor.
I only ever suggested the idea of a second Traitor in the context of a multiball role list, so that Mafia and Coven each have a Traitor by their side. If we're not doing multiball, then having two Traitors means that you can reach an effective team of six Mafia/Coven members with these role lists, which is way too many to have on a single evil team. Making it based on RNG is even worse because then you can't balance around it. Additionally, the RNG element means Mafia/Coven can get saved or screwed by basically a coin flip: If they happen to get two Traitors they've pretty much won, and if they don't then it can make the difference if they lose.

Achilles wrote:New Classic Town Traitor List:
Spoiler: SHERIFF
JAILOR
DOCTOR
LOOKOUT
MAYOR Why are there still five guaranteed role slots here? This is where the claimspace problem in this mode comes from.
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
GODFATHER
MAFIOSO
RANDOM_MAFIA
WITCH Witch being the only neutral role in the game is pointless. Please, just make this a second RM slot.

Achilles wrote:Coven Town Traitor Role List:
Spoiler: SHERIFF
JAILOR
CRUSADER
TRACKER
MAYOR Same as with Classic, five guaranteed role slots is far too many. I'd suggest cutting it down to one or two (preferably one).
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
COVEN_LEADER
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
Huh, a 10v5. This is more of an improvement than I thought it would be. I do have some reservations, but (aside from the five guaranteed role slots thing) they're more about the issues with Coven in general than this mode so I will leave them for now.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Mon May 11, 2020 8:06 pm

MysticMismagius wrote:
Achilles wrote:Making some role list tweaks that should be a step in the right direction. Keep in mind that nothing is final and I am reading your feedback to make incremental improvements. Additionally since this patch includes a lot of WebGL/HTML5 stuff it is likely to be on PTR for a bit for heavy testing.

Reading this thread did give me an idea though. There COULD be an argument for having a chance for more than 1 Traitor. Such as 1-2 Traitors with a 50% chance of having a second Traitor. Could add an extra spin on the game mode if you aren't sure if there is a second Traitor.
I only ever suggested the idea of a second Traitor in the context of a multiball role list, so that Mafia and Coven each have a Traitor by their side. If we're not doing multiball, then having two Traitors means that you can reach an effective team of six Mafia/Coven members with these role lists, which is way too many to have on a single evil team. Making it based on RNG is even worse because then you can't balance around it. Additionally, the RNG element means Mafia/Coven can get saved or screwed by basically a coin flip: If they happen to get two Traitors they've pretty much won, and if they don't then it can make the difference if they lose.

Achilles wrote:New Classic Town Traitor List:
Spoiler: SHERIFF
JAILOR
DOCTOR
LOOKOUT
MAYOR Why are there still five guaranteed role slots here? This is where the claimspace problem in this mode comes from.
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
GODFATHER
MAFIOSO
RANDOM_MAFIA
WITCH Witch being the only neutral role in the game is pointless. Please, just make this a second RM slot.

Achilles wrote:Coven Town Traitor Role List:
Spoiler: SHERIFF
JAILOR
CRUSADER
TRACKER
MAYOR Same as with Classic, five guaranteed role slots is far too many. I'd suggest cutting it down to one or two (preferably one).
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
COVEN_LEADER
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
RANDOM_COVEN
Huh, a 10v5. This is more of an improvement than I thought it would be. I do have some reservations, but (aside from the five guaranteed role slots thing) they're more about the issues with Coven in general than this mode so I will leave them for now.


Don't count Witch as just another neutral because it isn't. Witch is very unique. It is anti-Town and wins with the Mafia + Traitor.

The other comments I believe have merit. The next thing I will be looking at is to remove one of the guaranteed roles with some form of random town, but let's give this a try first. There is some claim space with this role list. I don't want to get too crazy with the amount of randoms.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 11, 2020 8:11 pm

That's the problem, Achilles. Witch is best in a game with multiple evils to work with, as that's where its loose connection with other players in its win-con, the ability and necessity to find out who its allies are and form alliances with whichever evils it likes best, and the ability to dump one set of potential allies for another at will really shine.

If Witch is the only neutral role, then the former two attributes become nothing but a detriment as it's been lashed to Mafia by sheer lack of other options yet still loses if it dies and has to figure out who they are, and the latter attribute no longer exists. The unique qualities that make Witch Witch don't really work in this context. It's just another Mafia member, but made worse by these qualities.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Mon May 11, 2020 8:18 pm

@Achilles Which is exactly why Witch is the only true Neutral Evil

Executioner could be there with tweaks but Jester in particular is literally NB - it has its own wincon entirely unrelated to any of the main factions and can just as easily help Town as Scum.

As for Witch in this mode, I see where you're both coming from for sure. I like Witch a lot (it's one of my favorite roles) specifically for the lost-wolf-ish dynamic it brings to the table, and I think Achilles is right to point out that exists. However, I do see where Mystic is coming from in that it reduces focus on the Traitor in the Town Traitor gamemode, even if I don't agree whatsoever that it being able to choose which scum it sides with is a core part of the role. Lost wolves are fine, but my issue is that it isn't meaningfully different from the Traitor.

Beyond that I do agree that there's a crucial lack of claimspace that ironically puts more focus on who claimed what than "who is scummy and therefore traitor," and that the five confirmed slots help contribute to this issue

I do think that part of the solution to changing that focus, however, involves extra time for day and night - 30 seconds added to day and 10 seconds added to night would be very helpful for giving people time to actually talk about who the traitor is, I think. Would be fun to try!
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby T1NO » Mon May 11, 2020 8:36 pm

The new coven TT role list is a step in the right direction, but it still seems far too town sided. When there are threads discussing game wide rebalance to counter 'jailor meta', it concerns me that new chaos game modes are being created with roles lists that are still jailor centric. The new role list is a 10 town v 4 coven + 1 traitor game with very powerful town such as mayor with easily provable town roles while coven still lacks early game killing power. I think a decently played town will still walk over a well played coven, especially when 5 town are still set roles like sheriff tracker etc.

I would like to suggest the following role list

1. Psychic - Psychic is a fun role that encourages town activity and thought. It's a good TI role and a player who town can sort of look to and center around without being able to do all the work by itself. Plus a traitor psychic would be very entertaining.

2. Vigilante - What fun is there having a Coven Leader game without a vigilante discouraging town from role calling early? Plus town always needs nighttime killing power. (may possibly want to exclude roles like Vigi or even Vigi/BG from being traitor)

3. Sheriff - Sheriff is a nice to have guaranteed TI, especially since it gives a possible HM something to do

4. Lookout - having one more set TI role seems important, I've chosen LO here as I find its ability to find town as useful and as rewarding as its ability to catch evils

5. TP - open to having this be a set TP, either trapper or Crus

6. TP - need to have a random TP as well for the claim space

7. TI

8. TI

9. TS

10. TS - I struggled with having a 2nd TS or making this slot RT

11. Coven Leader

12. Medusa - Early game killing power for coven, opens up claim space, encourages baiting visitors

13. HM/PM/RC - a guaranteed HM or PM seems like it might be desirable, perhaps even guarantee a HM instead of the medusa

14. RC - there should always be some mystery as to what some of the coven roles are

15. Plaguebearer - I was looking so a role that wouldn't have early game killing power but that cannot decide to act as a 6th vote for the other evils. GA or Exe here could give the evils a block of 6 votes which would be problematic in my opinion
or
15. RT - simply make this mode a 10 town v 4 coven + traitor mode, but then town may have to be nerfed from the above list


I would love some comments and feedback. I wrestled a lot with determining the coven composition as well as what in the world to put as the 15th role.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Mon May 11, 2020 8:50 pm

T1NO wrote:The new coven TT role list is a step in the right direction, but it still seems far too town sided. When there are threads discussing game wide rebalance to counter 'jailor meta', it concerns me that new chaos game modes are being created with roles lists that are still jailor centric. The new role list is a 10 town v 4 coven + 1 traitor game with very powerful town such as mayor with easily provable town roles while coven still lacks early game killing power. I think a decently played town will still walk over a well played coven, especially when 5 town are still set roles like sheriff tracker etc.

I would like to suggest the following role list
Spoiler: 1. Psychic - Psychic is a fun role that encourages town activity and thought. It's a good TI role and a player who town can sort of look to and center around without being able to do all the work by itself. Plus a traitor psychic would be very entertaining. Psychic is VFR's fursona and a plague on Coven. Its only merit is in how fun it is to fakeclaim, and that merit is diminished when one is guaranteed.
2. Vigilante - What fun is there having a Coven Leader game without a vigilante discouraging town from role calling early? Plus town always needs nighttime killing power. Fair enough, but TK would be better here (may possibly want to exclude roles like Vigi or even Vigi/BG from being traitor) I've detailed my opinions on this in the beta thread, but a TL;DR version: No. Please no.
3. Sheriff - Sheriff is a nice to have guaranteed TI, especially since it gives a possible HM something to do We're already reaching too many guaranteed roles
4. Lookout - having one more set TI role seems important, I've chosen LO here as I find its ability to find town as useful and as rewarding as its ability to catch evils Now there's definitely too many guaranteed roles, and do we really need five TI?
5. TP - open to having this be a set TP, either trapper or Crus Just keep it as a TP slot.
6. TP - need to have a random TP as well for the claim space For the claim space!
7. TI
8. TI These are good as is, remap the guaranteed Sheriff and LO slots to RT and we're good
9. TS
10. TS - I struggled with having a 2nd TS or making this slot RT I don't think we need 2TS especially since those roles are so easy to confirm right now
11. Coven Leader
12. Medusa - Early game killing power for coven, opens up claim space, encourages baiting visitors
13. HM/PM/RC - a guaranteed HM or PM seems like it might be desirable, perhaps even guarantee a HM instead of the medusa I'd prefer RC for more ambiguity
14. RC - there should always be some mystery as to what some of the coven roles are
15. Plaguebearer - I was looking so a role that wouldn't have early game killing power but that cannot decide to act as a 6th vote for the other evils. GA or Exe here could give the evils a block of 6 votes which would be problematic in my opinion I'd rather not. PB alone doesn't fix the problem that might merit the inclusion of an NK slot, and PB in particular has a tendency to steal the show.
or
15. RT - simply make this mode a 10 town v 4 coven + traitor mode, but then town may have to be nerfed from the above list This would be far preferable
I would love some comments and feedback. I wrestled a lot with determining the coven composition as well as what in the world to put as the 15th role.
Last edited by MysticMismagius on Mon May 11, 2020 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Mon May 11, 2020 8:50 pm

T1NO wrote:The new coven TT role list is a step in the right direction, but it still seems far too town sided. When there are threads discussing game wide rebalance to counter 'jailor meta', it concerns me that new chaos game modes are being created with roles lists that are still jailor centric. The new role list is a 10 town v 4 coven + 1 traitor game with very powerful town such as mayor with easily provable town roles while coven still lacks early game killing power. I think a decently played town will still walk over a well played coven, especially when 5 town are still set roles like sheriff tracker etc.

I would like to suggest the following role list

1. Psychic - Psychic is a fun role that encourages town activity and thought. It's a good TI role and a player who town can sort of look to and center around without being able to do all the work by itself. Plus a traitor psychic would be very entertaining.

2. Vigilante - What fun is there having a Coven Leader game without a vigilante discouraging town from role calling early? Plus town always needs nighttime killing power. (may possibly want to exclude roles like Vigi or even Vigi/BG from being traitor)

3. Sheriff - Sheriff is a nice to have guaranteed TI, especially since it gives a possible HM something to do

4. Lookout - having one more set TI role seems important, I've chosen LO here as I find its ability to find town as useful and as rewarding as its ability to catch evils

5. TP - open to having this be a set TP, either trapper or Crus

6. TP - need to have a random TP as well for the claim space

7. TI

8. TI

9. TS

10. TS - I struggled with having a 2nd TS or making this slot RT

11. Coven Leader

12. Medusa - Early game killing power for coven, opens up claim space, encourages baiting visitors

13. HM/PM/RC - a guaranteed HM or PM seems like it might be desirable, perhaps even guarantee a HM instead of the medusa

14. RC - there should always be some mystery as to what some of the coven roles are

15. Plaguebearer - I was looking so a role that wouldn't have early game killing power but that cannot decide to act as a 6th vote for the other evils. GA or Exe here could give the evils a block of 6 votes which would be problematic in my opinion
or
15. RT - simply make this mode a 10 town v 4 coven + traitor mode, but then town may have to be nerfed from the above list


I would love some comments and feedback. I wrestled a lot with determining the coven composition as well as what in the world to put as the 15th role.


The easily provable roles aren't actually easily provable since there is a Traitor. That was the idea behind the role list. It is suppose to turn your idea of Mayor or Jailor being guaranteed Town upside down. Perhaps replacing Mayor with another Random Town slot will be the last tweak the role list needs for more claim space and fewer strong Town roles being guaranteed.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby T1NO » Mon May 11, 2020 9:11 pm

When I say confirmed or easily provable I mean it in terms of being that role. While there is still some traitor paranoia, that doesn't change the lack of claimspace that role list would provide to the coven. It still seems trivial in my opinion for the jailor (who may not even be able to be killed N1 or N2 depending on what the coven are) to sus out the coven and start executing by N3.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby kyuss420 » Tue May 12, 2020 12:57 am

T1NO wrote:When I say confirmed or easily provable I mean it in terms of being that role. While there is still some traitor paranoia, that doesn't change the lack of claimspace that role list would provide to the coven. It still seems trivial in my opinion for the jailor (who may not even be able to be killed N1 or N2 depending on what the coven are) to sus out the coven and start executing by N3.


Yup coven modes are fast paced, with town roles claiming their slot on the role list, as soon as they can, all claims are counter claimed as soon as the claim is made. The only role that plays as a ''hidden'' role is the vigilante, because of CL controls and CL bypassing TPs n1 and n2, so basically any non claimer by day 3 is fair game to a vig.

With the necronomicon in play, sheriff will claim day 3, because any innos they find are confirmed not coven. (which in itself confirms more town slots)
With a bunch of non visiting town roles (trapper n1, vigi n1, jailor, mayor, psy, medium/ret) trackers claim fast, as soon as they see someone visit - the only non visiting coven are necromancer (even tho noobs control whatever role is in the graveyard, for the sake of clicking a button, and get caught visiting the gy) and medusa (who should be gazing early game, and if tracker is alive, doubtful they tracked medusa)
town supports mostly confirm themselves, except medium.

So the new list gives 3 slots of claimspace, 4 slots if TIs are unlucky, but with jailor, TK and mayor, town have a possible 3 kills per day/night cycle, which makes short work of any 1 for 1 disputes over role claims.. eg, lynch X and jail and exe Y if X is inno, if 2x 1v1 disputes in a day, vigi will shoot one of the 2nd disputers, while jailor is dealing with the first disputers.

As for it coming down to traitor vs town.... vigi cant be traitor, so vigi doesnt shoot until its 1v1 (if it gets to that), and no one is voting on the vigi. Then town can just lynch dangerous traitor roles, starting with jailor, mayor, escort (so vig cant be RBed), trans (so vig cant be transed with traitor), then doc and BG, so vigi wont waste his last bullet on a self heal/vest, i know its not ''in the spirit'' of the mode, but thats the meta that will develop...
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Wed May 13, 2020 6:25 pm

It seems the debate on TT role lists has mostly died. Think the last change people want is 1 more Random Town instead of a confirmed role?
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed May 13, 2020 6:38 pm

I'd prefer more confirmed roles to be replaced with their sub-alignment or an RT, as four is still too much
One or two confirmed roles would be preferred

EDIT: Also, replace Witch with RM in classic because having Witch with only Maf is pointless, especially with Traitor in the mix as well
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed May 13, 2020 10:18 pm

I think my posts have been ones I stand by

Even without Town Leader running my/Mystic's most recent suggestions with Jailor (or Mayor I guess) guaranteed seems like it would be best in theory, would be very interested to see if people like it in practice or if we missed something somewhere

Beyond the massive lack of claimspace I think the list is not my biggest worry with the mode but overall it's been fun so I don't think we're too too far off from something really workable

Also p sure Mystic meant to say swap Witch for Mafioso not RM? Maybe not but rn Jailor/Escort can just screw the Mafia completely
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed May 13, 2020 10:21 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:I think my posts have been ones I stand by same here with mine

Even without Town Leader running my/Mystic's most recent suggestions with Jailor (or Mayor I guess) guaranteed seems like it would be best in theory, would be very interested to see if people like it in practice or if we missed something somewhere hehe, thank you =)

Beyond the massive lack of claimspace I think the list is not my biggest worry with the mode but overall it's been fun so I don't think we're too too far off from something really workable

Also p sure Mystic meant to say swap Witch for Mafioso not RM? Maybe not but rn Jailor/Escort can just screw the Mafia completely He already added Mafioso, so no I did mean RM. New list looks like this:
Spoiler:
Achilles wrote:SHERIFF
JAILOR
DOCTOR
LOOKOUT
MAYOR
TOWN_INVESTIGATIVE
TOWN_PROTECTIVE
TOWN_KILLING
TOWN_SUPPORT
RANDOM_TOWN
RANDOM_TOWN
GODFATHER
MAFIOSO
RANDOM_MAFIA
WITCH
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Wed May 13, 2020 10:26 pm

Ah

I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao

Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?
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Spoiler:
SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

ElderSivart wrote:I'm confused as to why BMG made a UI for Pirate and not Hypnotist.

Sarah Thorpe wrote:Role Ideas is great for masochists.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Wed May 13, 2020 10:29 pm

I believe so, yes
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Achilles » Thu May 14, 2020 3:58 pm

orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah

I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao

Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?


That seems like a massive amount of randoms. Perhaps you are trying to design this from a ranked perspective and that may not be what the general community wants (non-ranked players) for a game mode such as this.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby MysticMismagius » Thu May 14, 2020 4:26 pm

Achilles wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah

I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao

Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?
That seems like a massive amount of randoms. Perhaps you are trying to design this from a ranked perspective and that may not be what the general community wants (non-ranked players) for a game mode such as this.
Not sure about orangeandblack5, but I don't play Ranked.
A lot of randoms is also good from a chaotic perspective: more guaranteed roles means a more rigid role list where the lineup of Town can get pretty samey: the antithesis of chaos. With a chaos mindset, there should be no guaranteed role slots at all, but we know a lot of people aren't going to like that idea, so a few guaranteed roles are necessary. I get that.

But 5 or even 4 is just too many, especially since some of the specific roles guaranteed are rather redundant. For Mayor and Jailor, I don't think we need both of them to be guaranteed. Unless you're banking on one of them being Traitor, having both Mayor and Jailor on Town's side can get pretty OP pretty fast, especially when TS and RT can spawn Retributionist as well. For Sheriff, LO/Tracker, and Doc/Crus, they seem kind of random as guaranteed roles. Even though there's an argument for 3 guaranteed TI and 2 guaranteed TP being necessary (not sure on 3TI but I do believe 2TP is the right call), having those 3 TI and 2TP be TI and TP slots makes for some more variety and allows evils to more comfortably fakeclaim those roles.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby orangeandblack5 » Thu May 14, 2020 5:48 pm

Achilles wrote:
orangeandblack5 wrote:Ah

I know I've been busy with the Mafia Championships but how did I miss that lmao

Yeah I'd trade Sheriff for TI, Doctor for TP, Lookout for RT, ONE of Mayor or Jailor for RT. and then Witch for RM - which I believe is in total what you also suggest?


That seems like a massive amount of randoms. Perhaps you are trying to design this from a ranked perspective and that may not be what the general community wants (non-ranked players) for a game mode such as this.

While I will not deny that:

A - the general sentiment in my pregame lobbies when discussing the role list is that other people also think there is too little claimspace and that there should be more randoms

B- a gamemode enforcing scumreading via robbing investigatives of their power is inherently aligned with the goals of Ranked

C - we want to ensure games are fun to play and getting consistently caught out by a lack of claimspace is not that

I think the other solution if you think the randoms aren't good (also interested to hear why that would be) is to go the other route, confirm everything, and differentiate the mode by making it so that scum always divvy up the same claims amongst themselves in an attempt to force the Town to scumread by virtue of having the same counterclaims every game. The main issue I see with this is that, without Citizens and ample discussion time, this idea seems to kinda hamstring itself into being repetitive. I've already been suggesting the mode could use some extra time (30s more for day/10s more for night), which could obviously be done when taking this route as well, but I still don't think it really makes up for the inherent downside of forcing everyone into the same claims every game, which risks the development of a true meta (like, literally to the extent of "X role checks Y claim, we vote Z claims up first").

It's probably easier to just test randoms and if feedback is negative just reverse it before the mode goes live.
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SwampRabbit wrote:your idea is that no town should ever be able to confirm themselves as town.

that is the dumbest idea I think I have heard.

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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby Alexis17 » Thu May 14, 2020 6:21 pm

Would you guys consider replacing Doctor with TP and Lookout *or* Sheriff with RT? I think it's a balanced change without going too crazy with random roles.
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Re: Town Traitor Role List Discussion

Postby EpicEmperor » Fri May 15, 2020 9:57 am

Achilles wrote:It seems the debate on TT role lists has mostly died. Think the last change people want is 1 more Random Town instead of a confirmed role?


I hope I'm not too late on this! I have a lot to say due to a lot of previous consideration! I don't want to claim authority but I have played a LOT of coven custom -one lobby which you joined and told me about traitor in- so I'm kind of familiar with the rolelist process, and I want to explain a few things from my experience that might lighten things up a bit. People have dismissed a lot of the swing issues as insolvable but I find it quite the opposite. TI are weaker than TP which are weaker than killing roles which are weaker than Mayor/Jailor. This CAN BE SOLVED. If you put relatively few TI in, ~two, you can make them rarer and more useful to town because of their scarcity compared to the rest of the hopefully 9 or 10 sized lawful townies. You can't exactly make them useful to coven when they're a traitor, so the use comes in town being deprived of them. This also pushing scumreading to the forefront. That works well! TS could be swingy in random form because of medium and ret, but as long as you only have 1 TS and don't use a confirmed medium/ret, their exclusivity will be powerful enough to prove useful as a traitor. The mayor problem is one i've seen thrown around too, with little response. I have seen the idea of TK handling it, and to my chagrin it's been shut down instead of encouraged. If you have enough TK, they deal more KPN than coven, and if coven isn't careful they can straight up reveal themselves, making what would be an easy Mayor-traitor-coven-win a Vigilante shooting range that Coven has to not get caught in. I've also seen a lot of randoms get thrown in for replayability's sake, though the same thing can be seen in gamemodes like Lovers or VIP and it's safe. Most if it seems to have been completely disregarded in the current list. However neither focus in on the idea of making confirmable roles as valuable as those supporting them to the coven (and I say this focusing on coven, of which I am more familiar.) The game already somewhat balances this out by making most of the traitor suspicion naturally fall on the roles with massive responsibility! all you have to do is do the rest and utilize good roles like Crusader and Vigilante to Balance it out. Also, RC with CL and no medusa is super swingy. I can't imagine a player thinking "Wow, I wish medusa didn't always exist, I really have a craving for not being able to deal earlygame damage to town!" I have a few lists brainstormed with all of this in mind, however I've only been able to work up one measly game of the current list in which someone gamethrew. I need a better look at the game than that. However, I'm sure there are better ways than those suggested if I have the time to do some testing with the current list.
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