Town Traitor Role List Discussion

[Joacgroso]

The problem with only having a confirmed hex master in coven is that coven would rely on luck in order to get kills early. If they have a necromancer and a medusa, for example, they will have to hope there's a NK so they can get any kills before n3.

[woahah]

please tell me mayor and jailor can't be traitor

[Joacgroso]

please tell me mayor and jailor can't be traitor

Achilles said he is inclined to exclude vigilantes and retributionists from being traitors, but any other role could still be the traitor. He especially likes the idea of jailors and mayors being traitors since it would reduce their confirmability.

[orangeandblack5]

please tell me mayor and jailor can't be traitor

Achilles said he is inclined to exclude vigilantes and retributionists from being traitors, but any other role could still be the traitor. He especially likes the idea of jailors and mayors being traitors since it would reduce their confirmability.

I'm just gonna repost this

First off, I do think that the idea of a traitor Jailor or Mayor, while seemingly fun, would get old really fast due to the MASSIVE damage these roles can cause.

In particular, your list is 9/4/2. If we assume a Town dies N1, that's 8/4/2. If the Town Traitor is a Mayor, the scum have practically already won at the start of Day 2 - majority is 8, and they have exactly eight votes if the Exe just pushes their target for that day's mislynch. That's going to be far too powerful, and Jailor is a similar story by virtue of being a buffed escort, buffed doctor, and buffed vigilante all in one.

I highly doubt these roles being traitor would be fun after one or two games of getting stomped on by a Traitor that lucked into one of the strongest roles in the game. This is the same issue I have with Traitor Veterans, more or less, and in general roles that are powerful enough to be Unique should probably be considered powerful enough to not let them be the Traitor.

I think this mode has insanely good potential, but I think things like letting Mayor/Jailor/Veteran be the traitor will be enough to outright ruin it in the eyes of many.

[Joacgroso]

Don't get me wrong, I don't think having TL as a traitor would be a good idea. I was just answering Woahah's question about what Achilles said.

[orangeandblack5]

I understand that

I am repeating my point for emphasis should Achilles read it

[woahah]

please tell me mayor and jailor can't be traitor

Achilles said he is inclined to exclude vigilantes and retributionists from being traitors, but any other role could still be the traitor. He especially likes the idea of jailors and mayors being traitors since it would reduce their confirmability.

1. mayor's entire thing is that its confirmed
2. thats really op
can jailor roll twice in that situation or does it roll once because its unique

[orangeandblack5]

presumably it is still unique

[CroatianPerson]

If vigi Shoots the traitor, they wont die from guilt, correct?

[kyuss420]

The problem with only having a confirmed hex master in coven is that coven would rely on luck in order to get kills early. If they have a necromancer and a medusa, for example, they will have to hope there's a NK so they can get any kills before n3.

100% on point.

Medusa gazing while coven leader controls someone to them, is given practise, and the only way coven can get kills first 2 nights, Saving gazes as medusa is trash play, as medusa is towns lowest priority coven, so getting lynched as dusa in place of any other coven, is good for the coven in the long run, as a lot of the time, buying CL or HM an extra night is all it takes to swing games. With the exception being getting lynched day 2.

So yea a Coven Leader and a Medusa are required for any coven list. Anyone who doesnt understand the simplest basics of playing as a coven team, shouldnt be commenting on how the coven set up should look... especially in a mode where the hook is playing as the evil faction... Medusa, CL, Hex Master and RC - Pot master, Necro, Poisoner, would be my ideal coven set up, in a mode where you have a townie acting as coven support. I dont think a 5 man faction would be too over powered without an NK, especially if 1 or more psychics were to spawn.

[woahah]

presumably it is still unique

that is just
bad
I can't put into words how broken that is because then they will still have absolutely no opposition which would be so useful

[kyuss420]

presumably it is still unique

that is just
bad
I can't put into words how broken that is because then they will still have absolutely no opposition which would be so useful

If a jailor isnt targeted by the evil factions, or the evils dont seem to have a plan in place to kill the jailor (eg, targeting TPs, LO's then NOT targeting jailor), jailor traitor would be fairly obvious.
traitor Jailor could still possibly jail an important evil role n1
while jailor could read the evil faction chat, he wont be adding much to it, as the person jailed would be wondering wtf hes talking about, if he did (assuming the chat works like medium when jailed) If he wanted to tell them something he would have to not jail anyone for a night.

I really dont think its as broken as it seems.... Unless your whole townie game plan revolves around the jailor and their opinions,

[woahah]

presumably it is still unique

that is just
bad
I can't put into words how broken that is because then they will still have absolutely no opposition which would be so useful

If a jailor isnt targeted by the evil factions, or the evils dont seem to have a plan in place to kill the jailor (eg, targeting TPs, LO's then NOT targeting jailor), jailor traitor would be fairly obvious.
traitor Jailor could still possibly jail an important evil role n1
while jailor could read the evil faction chat, he wont be adding much to it, as the person jailed would be wondering wtf hes talking about, if he did (assuming the chat works like medium when jailed) If he wanted to tell them something he would have to not jail anyone for a night.

I really dont think its as broken as it seems.... Unless your whole townie game plan revolves around the jailor and their opinions,

it is possible to communicate without that by "confirming" things with them
also normal jailor is now fucked over
and also its a consort that can kill, going past immunity
so uh

[ZedKiller13]

There is a huge focus I have been seeing around how a Mayor traitor already wins the game for evils on day 2.

The issue with that is one, they have to be revealed, and two, the town would take a HUGE notice in the Mayor not voting up any leads, ESPECIALLY those on known Mafia members.
The Mayor may have the votes, but they no longer have the protection. The role list should reflect the ability to kill them at any time. Meaning a Jailor or Vigilante should be in play as well (I would say both).
The idea of a traitor mode is that instead of traditional ToS gameplay where town roles become confirmed over time, NOBODY can be confirmed until the traitor is dead. You cannot trust ANYONE.
Some role lists I've been seeing simply take too much up of the ranked theme on them. For these modes, I would say directly specific Townies, such as a confirmed Sheriff or Vigilante, is required. Having all the town roles be randomized (and especially some evil roles) just flops it entirely. Too much thinking would go into who is what, rather than who is and who isn't the traitor.

My issue with including a Neutral Killing is that is gives the Town more "garbage" to work for. This is supposed to be a chaos mode, not a Classic mode. The town will have to lynch themselves.
Adding in all these extra killing roles or role randomization would just turn the mode into another classic mode into my opinion. The only difference is that after the Town has finished lynching all the evils first, they start lynching each other to find out who is the traitor. I would want the idea that the traitor can be lynched or killed at any time and would constantly affect the game as a whole. We can use Lovers Mode as an example. Some town roles are immediately known, some are not. Its replay value comes from its feature of both combining who the lovers are with the mix of who the evils are. The Town can fare very well, and the Town can also get screwed over early on.

What I'm seeing discussion here is focus on the role itself, not all the roles as a whole. A Mayor traitor is powerful, but completely doomed once the town realizes and have a killing role of their own ready to shoot them down. A Jailor traitor is powerful, but they don't have the voting majority.

I would also suggest highly that a Jailor traitor can execute more than one Townie. Smart people would save it for when it is needed.

You have to look at how roles would perform with everything else against them, rather themselves on their own with a Ranked background bias perspective. This mode as I assume would include everyone from all parts of the game, not just the people from Ranked or as I term it the "smarties" (smart townies, heh)

The town should have the idea in their head that nobody is truly confirmed, and should be ready to turn on ANYONE with the snap of a finger.

These are my suggestions for the rolelists:

Classic:

Sheriff
Jailor
Vigilante
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
Witch

Coven:
Sheriff
Jailor
Vigilante
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Medusa
Random Coven
Random Coven
Executioner
Plaguebearer

Edit*

Jailor that executes a traitor townie should be able to continue executing.
The only roles excluded from becoming Traitor should be Vigilante and Retributionist (now, if the Disguiser change goes through where disguised Townies can be revived, then the Retri can definitely be a traitor)

[orangeandblack5]

There is a huge focus I have been seeing around how a Mayor traitor already wins the game for evils on day 2.

The issue with that is one, they have to be revealed, and two, the town would take a HUGE notice in the Mayor not voting up any leads, ESPECIALLY those on known Mafia members.
The Mayor may have the votes, but they no longer have the protection.

The issue is they can just make up plausible reasons for their first mislynch, and by the time anyone's figured it out there's already been a second mislynch. Even if the Mayor dies after that, it's already too late.

The role list should reflect the ability to kill them at any time. Meaning a Jailor or Vigilante should be in play as well (I would say both).
The idea of a traitor mode is that instead of traditional ToS gameplay where town roles become confirmed over time, NOBODY can be confirmed until the traitor is dead. You cannot trust ANYONE.

What I'm seeing discussion here is focus on the role itself, not all the roles as a whole. A Mayor traitor is powerful, but completely doomed once the town realizes and have a killing role of their own ready to shoot them down. A Jailor traitor is powerful, but they don't have the voting majority.

The town should have the idea in their head that nobody is truly confirmed, and should be ready to turn on ANYONE with the snap of a finger.

Trust me, I've played games (mountainous) where you cannot trust literally anyone before, and they're a lot of fun.

This issue is that, at a fundamental level, the current power distribution across different Town roles is not at all even, and when some of the best roles in the entire game are Town, having them be a traitor both removes one of the Town's best roles, and gives the scum one of the best roles in the game, all at the same time. It's not as simple as "Mafia Jailor," because it's actually "investigation-immune Mafia Jailor and no Town Jailor." Compare this to rolling Medium or Sheriff as a Traitor and you can very easily see where the problem lies.

At the end of the day, I love games where nobody can be trusted until they've earned it through their actions rather than a claim. However, Town of Salem is in no position to be that game, as certain Town roles just break the game if they're Traitor (technically, they kinda break the game already, but it's worse when they're scum and Town can't have them). Unless drastic changes are made to even out every Town role in power, we have to work within the confines of what this game is, otherwise the rand will have a larger influence on the game's outcome than the actions of the players.

Some role lists I've been seeing simply take too much up of the ranked theme on them. For these modes, I would say directly specific Townies, such as a confirmed Sheriff or Vigilante, is required. Having all the town roles be randomized (and especially some evil roles) just flops it entirely. Too much thinking would go into who is what, rather than who is and who isn't the traitor.

I actually like this take - I 100% get where you are coming from, and it's an aspect I honestly had not considered.

However, I have two worries with focusing on things in this manner.

First off, there are still Mafia. While I do agree that the "Town Traitor" mode should place significant focus on the identity of the Town Traitor, I fear that having a list be too structured will result in a lack of claimspace for the other Mafia. For example, a Lookout claim is quite hard to make work, so the list Achilles threw out that included it is guaranteed to have that slot be relatively unclaimiable for the Mafia, and I don't think the right way to go about putting focus on catching the Traitor is to turn around and make the rest of the Mafia really easy to narrow down.

Secondarily, I'm afraid that this could box the game in too much. Every guaranteed Town role we add starts to box in the meta - each role will have a certain specific job to do, and it becomes easier to find the Traitor based on who deviates from what is considered optimal given a relatively straightforward list. Likewise, certain scum roles will be boxed into making a lot of the same claims every game, and I feel that this adversely affects the experience even further.

So I don't really have an answer to this one, because I really can see both sides of the argument. I guess we'll see how the PTR plays out, and we can decide which way to go from there.

My issue with including a Neutral Killing is that is gives the Town more "garbage" to work for. This is supposed to be a chaos mode, not a Classic mode. The town will have to lynch themselves.
Adding in all these extra killing roles or role randomization would just turn the mode into another classic mode into my opinion. The only difference is that after the Town has finished lynching all the evils first, they start lynching each other to find out who is the traitor. I would want the idea that the traitor can be lynched or killed at any time and would constantly affect the game as a whole. We can use Lovers Mode as an example. Some town roles are immediately known, some are not. Its replay value comes from its feature of both combining who the lovers are with the mix of who the evils are. The Town can fare very well, and the Town can also get screwed over early on.

While I think the devs agree with you on the NK, as do I, I couldn't disagree more on the idea that this is a "chaos mode." This mode has the potential to be the highest-skilled mode in the game if handled correctly, as the devs are selling it as a mode where you need to rely on scumreading rather than just mechanics to win. If we manage to achieve that well, it will honestly be a better indicator of player skill than the current Ranked mode, in my opinion.

I would also suggest highly that a Jailor traitor can execute more than one Townie. Smart people would save it for when it is needed.

Scum Jailor is already insanely good, it's strictly the best possible Traitor choice and already outright outclasses a traitor Escort, Doctor, Bodyguard, or Vigilante - not to mention roles like Medium or Sheriff that are relatively weak in scum hands.

If traitor Vigilante doesn't get multiple shots, I cannot fathom why Jailor should. Scum-aligned extra kills are really strong, as they remove an additional voice from the Town and help bring the scum even closer to majority. Adding the ability to do that twice onto what is already far and away the best traitor role is ludicrous.

You have to look at how roles would perform with everything else against them, rather themselves on their own with a Ranked background bias perspective. This mode as I assume would include everyone from all parts of the game, not just the people from Ranked or as I term it the "smarties" (smart townies, heh)

Any mode can include players from everywhere else. That doesn't mean we don't focus each mode on its own core idea, and in the case of Town Traitor that's first and foremost a focus on scumreading, followed by the Town vs. Mafia dynamic devoid of excessive Neutrals. This is, at the end of the day, closer to the focus of Ranked than it is of any other mode, so it's unsurprising that there will be similarities.

Sheriff
Jailor
Vigilante
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Protective
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Executioner
Witch

This is untenable. The list you have suggested here is literally 8v7. Unless the Town gets a successful heal off Night 1, they have already lost majority by Day 2.

Furthermore, given you are suggesting scum mayor should be a thing, if the Mayor is the traitor that means that the voting line Day 2 is already 7 against 8 after you exclude the Executioner. If they can pull of one single mislynch without outing themselves, the game is literally over, and even if they do end up outing themselves as a scum Mayor the Town is still incredibly likely to lose when Day 3 is 5v5.

Similarly, if traitor is Jailor, they can get at least one extra kill, and you go so far as to suggest that Jailor should get multiple executions. When scum already has voting equity on Day 2, this very clearly breaks the game.

I can't convince myself that your suggestion for the list is at all connected to your thoughts about the roles. You seem to have a decent understanding of the core ideas at play here, so I am completely at a loss as to how you can also go and suggest a list that combines with your own suggestions to literally hand scum free wins without even needing to try.

Games without extra kills from a NK should not be over faster.

This list needs work.

Edit*

Jailor that executes a traitor townie should be able to continue executing.
The only roles excluded from becoming Traitor should be Vigilante and Retributionist (now, if the Disguiser change goes through where disguised Townies can be revived, then the Retri can definitely be a traitor)

It makes no sense to let Retributionist be traitor just because it could revive Disguisers. If no Disguiser rands, you're back in square one.

Also, I note you haven't mentioned Veteran anywhere, and frankly I think that's something that should be touched on. Traitor Veterans are super harmful, because the only way to ensure you avoid them is self-isolate and stay home. Nobody should be able to bait in kills on themselves like that - even Werewolf can't do it effectively because they have no team and if they are outed as WW they almost always lose. Mafia-aligned Veteran is just a nightmare, and it should definitely not be able to be Traitor (if it isn't outright removed from the mode).

[techyleo]

@Achilles Since there is a confirmed exe spot on the list, will exe be allowed to have Traitor as target?

[ZedKiller13]

Alright, I can definitely say that I had rushed the role list some, although I will provide some reasoning on it.

The role list is only that instant loss of vote if the Mayor reveals and if they are able to force a mis-lynch. This would require the Mayor to have some form of evidence against whoever they want to lynch directly and have it be sufficient enough to qualify for the lynching itself. Something I could see happening is that if a mislynch occurs, the Town immediately kills whoever led the lynch directly no matter how much they defend it.

The Mayor would 100% nail the voting majority, but pulling off a mislynch so early, and being it so early what evidence would they have against anyone? Even if they do pull off that mislynch, who's to say the Town won't turn on them so quickly after? I see it a lot in multiple gamemodes itself; the person who caused the mislynch is immediately targeted and more than likely killed right after.

I would only see a mislynch happening when it wins them the game and the Town physically does not have the majority with the evils. The Mayor is one specific role and one specific person; they can nail the mislynch but if the Town turns on them and kills them in return, that voting power is immediately lost.

Sure, you can force a mislynch Day 4 yadda yadda.

But the two factors that MUST apply are:

"What evidence does the Mayor THEMSELVES have that is able to force a mislynch on anyone WITHOUT other roles and their OWN leads taking effect come into play? In a game of nobody is trustworthy, who takes the priority when the dude with 3 votes may be out to screw everyone over, rather than the townie trying to get a Mafia lynched?"
"How many evils are dead? If Town gets lucky or plays their cards right, some Mafia or other evils may be dead already. This could definitely allow a chance for a mislynch to be plausible, rather than a mislynch day 2 with a Mayor who basically would have ZERO evidence on ANYONE to be even able to do that."

A Veteran Traitor is also extremely situation based. In this day and age, and especially with this mode, the Veteran couldn't outright ask for TP on them and expect all Townies to visit them. I'd say in this mode ANYONE asking for TP/LO or whatever they want on them should be ignored completely unless they have some evidence behind them to expect it (such as a Sheriff claim who lynched a Mafia member). The different aspect here is that anyone could be the traitor, so the "confirmed" Mayor may be fake, and hence no longer should be immediately protected.

A traitor Jailor with the ability to execute multiple times would also have to rely on playing their cards right. They can't just start off executing everyone; the Town would immediately catch that. They would only execute more than one Townie at its most dire need. That scum Jailor also has to deal with the town pressure of jailing the known evils. If the Jailor is ignoring the Town's call to jail the suspicious guy and jails a random...who gets put on trial?

The Jailor. Because absolutely NOBODY can be trusted, and ANY mistakes here can cost the game and at the same time may reveal who the traitor is.

A traitor Vigilante should also apply to this case with them being ALLOWED to kill more than one Townie.

My reasoning on the Traitor Retri was short. Reviving Disguisers helps as well, but looking at a role list perspective, it eats up that Town Support slot. You could even come together to allow a Mafia member to claim that TS spot, or even "confirm" the Mafia member by reviving an actual Townie.
Or, that Retri can do absolutely nothing, gain more credibility if they claim something like Medium, stand as a vote for the Mafia/Coven themselves, and screw over the Town's hope that the dead Jailor could come back.

I can 100% see all aspects of the voting majority coming into effect, and the role list was my Alpha 0.0001. I hate Witch in that aspect entirely; it was mainly a filler. But you can't always view it from the role list perspective, and rather the gameplay perspective. No traitor Mayor would want to reveal Day 2, claim "Billy is traitor because he's silent!" and expect it to work every time. If the Town takes notice on that, and BIlly turns out to be the Vigilante... that Mayor is going to have a bad time.

Replayability comes from uniqueness. If you can create a different match every single time, that's awesome. I would expect a traitor Mayor to throw the town off completely when right, and not doing it Day 3 with their so called "voting majority" when the Town won't be taking any shit or mistakes and the Vigilante shoots the Mayor the next night. Combined with on that Day 2, the Sheriff lynched a Mafia member.

[kyuss420]

traitor mayor reveals, lynches jailor day2, Coven leader/witch controls TP to the mayor n2, hilarity ensues. Honestly, just mislynching the role that the ranked smarties rely on early game is a win, regardless of the sacrifice.

But I highly agree with everything you said awesomeboy, especially the ranked players turning it into ''ranked with a traitor instead of an NK''. Besides, if you dont want these roles as traitor, you can always limit the chances of those roles spawning in your role list. Or maybe its just the ''smarties'' wanting a mode where they can steamroll the evil faction?

I play a lot of VIP, where there is no jailor or NK, 1xTS slot (which can be game breaking enough if theyre smart) and every noob still cries that town is too overpowered and its impossible to win as coven....there are literally none of the ''town power'' roles in most matches, altho confirmability plays a big part. I think VIP is the only faction vs town mode without an NK, besides dracs palace. As such, I dont see a problem with any role becoming traitor. If you cant change play styles for different modes, then the game as a whole becomes stale. Changing play styles is half the fun of chaos modes.

[orangeandblack5]

dude who hurt you lmao - the insults are not needed

The mode sounds awesome for the exact same reasons Ranked is appealing but amped up to 11, so of course you have people who want it to be balanced and not a bunch of random shit decided by rand

Nobody wants to just steamroll scum but you also shouldn't need to throw away any semblance of trying to scumread when you play Town Traitor just because "it's Chaos though" when scumreading is supposed to be the entire point of the mode

It can literally be Better Ranked

It has that potential

Please stop throwing baseless insults at people who merely express that desire and aren't bashing you at all

Plus, it's ultimatdly a win/win if Classic TT is closer to Ranked and Coven TT is a more chaotic mode, as there's something for everyone.

[ZedKiller13]

dude who hurt you lmao - the insults are not needed

The mode sounds awesome for the exact same reasons Ranked is appealing but amped up to 11, so of course you have people who want it to be balanced and not a bunch of random shit decided by rand

Nobody wants to just steamroll scum but you also shouldn't need to throw away any semblance of trying to scumread when you play Town Traitor just because "it's Chaos though" when scumreading is supposed to be the entire point of the mode

It can literally be Better Ranked

It has that potential

Please stop throwing baseless insults at people who merely express that desire and aren't bashing you at all

Plus, it's ultimatdly a win/win if Classic TT is closer to Ranked and Coven TT is a more chaotic mode, as there's something for everyone.

Insults...? Note that I would assume he is referencing the "ranked smarties" (as he quoted) as being the generic stereotype of the ranked tryhard theme. I certainly wasn't calling anyone out or any group out, and they weren't either I'd assume.

Anyway, back on topic.

The mode can be balanced easily. Ranked in perfect form should be balanced yet yield different results for all factions each time. Ranked at the moment is in trouble because loopholes exist where Townies can abuse the Jailor meta and other stuff to quickly mow down the scum.

This game would be 100% scumreading just for the Traitor themselves and of course the Mafia. Every game isn't gonna have a Mayor/Jailor traitor. Really, those games will be extremely rare.

Something I would want to discuss is whether Executioner should be able to have a Traitor target, where in I say no as it might put too much pressure on them immediately if the Exe goes for their accusation quickly. Plus, it might encourage the NEUTRAL exe to go and help out Town afterwards.
Although, I do like the thought of the Executioner becoming a good guy, heh heh.

[kyuss420]

the traitor being randomly chosen is half the fun tho, as its gonna require a different tactic for the evils for every different role, with some roles yielding the possibility of multiple tactics...no matter what ya do theres always gonna be good and bad roles for traitor as both town and evils.

I mean if the ''townie'' players dont want jailor/mayor as traitor, then stupid roles, like sheriff/medium, should also be unable to become traitor, because that weakens the evil factions too much/doesnt buff them at all (especially if town have jailor AND mayor/ret)... (the only help a traitor sheriff/medium provides is the small power town loses, they dont help the faction in any other way except maybe getting themselves lynched/bussed) and if ya start going down that route, then where do ya stop? Only mid tier roles can become traitor? pfff

but you dont see anyone on here complaining about traitor roles that weaken the evils too much, or dont buff them at all.. only roles that weaken town, so I can only assume that the majority of commenters havent given a thought on how the mode would be played/difficulty as an evil.

As for the ''smarties'' I was referring to the players who play as town, and are quite adequate as town, but given an evil role, they flop and have no idea what to do/how to target and ultimately rely on luck anyway. (which is probably the majority of players in covens rotating modes atm, and believe me,the last thing I want is to give up a week of VIP per month for a dead mode)

[MysticMismagius]

Let's bring some discussion about the list back up now that we've gotten a chance to actually play this mode, shall we?

Achilles had suggested this list earlier in the thread and included it in today's test run.

Spoiler: Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Executioner
Witch

I did not like this list all too much when I saw it, and now that I've played it my issues with it are basically the same as they were then: not enough claim space for maf, WAY too many guaranteed role slots for Town, and guaranteed Exe not really "shaking things up" as much as one would expect because guaranteed Exe slot neuters the one thing that makes Exe shake things up.

In the Beta thread, Achilles proposed this:

I wonder if just replacing executioner with another RT would work out better. Mafia seem to be winning a lot.

I'm not 100% sold on this idea, but I do think it would be interesting to consider. However, such a change requires rethinking how the entire role list would work, especially with regards to the resident Witch. Witch only makes sense as a neutral role in a list with diverse evils to work with; something already lacking in the current role list but would be made even worse if Exe was replaced with a Town slot. If Witch is the only neutral role, and there are only Townies and Mafia, then Witch might as well be just another Mafia member who has to find her team and can’t win when alone or with just the Traitor. And then there's no point to having the Witch. It'd be simpler and better to just cut neutrals out of the picture entirely at that point, and have a 10v5. If we were to go this route, I propose a role list that looks like this:

Spoiler: Mayor/Jailor #HotTake, Mayor is more interesting as Town Traitor's resident mainstay TL than Jailor is. However, as a Traitor Jailor is less OP imo, so I could accept either role being here.
Town Investigative Remapped Sheriff as TI
Town Investigative Same as before
Town Protective Remapped Doc as TP
Town Protective Same as before
Town Killing Same as before
Town Support Same as before
Random Town Remapped Jailor/Mayor as RT, because guaranteed Jailor and guaranteed Mayor gives town a lot of power unless one of them happens to be Traitor
Random Town Remapped LO as RT, because 3 TI slots is a bit too much
Random Town Remapped Exe
Random Town Original RT slot
Godfather Same as before
Mafioso This is the best 4th Maf in a pre-TMK environment. Currently Mafia is kinda screwed if GF gets chain-blocked. If we ever implement TMK, I'd want this to be replaced with an RM slot.
Mafia Deception (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)
Mafia Support (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)
Is the MD/MS slot thing just a band-aid fix for the MS roles being generally better than the MD roles? If we don't replace the Exe slot with RT, I still think it needs to be replaced with something. Guaranteed Exe isn't really doing this mode many favors, and the role list in general needs improvement. Here's my proposal for a role list which includes neutrals:

Spoiler: Mayor/Jailor
Town Investigative Remapped Sheriff
Town Investigative Same as before
Town Protective Remapped Doc
Town Protective Same as before
Town Killing Same as before
Town Support Same as before
Random Town Remapped Jailor/Mayor
Random Town Remapped LO
Random Town Original RT slot
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Neutral Benign I prefer NB + NE over 2NE because that provides more variety in what roles are in play without introducing NKs and Vampires. But 2NE wouldn't be the end of the world.
Neutral Evil This gives Exe some of that surprise factor it desperately needs.

Basically I wanted to keep a similar structure to Achilles’s original role list for this one, while editing mostly to fix the things that I view as wrong with the original. Thoughts?

[orangeandblack5]

Mayor/Jailor #HotTake, Mayor is more interesting as Town Traitor's resident mainstay TL than Jailor is. However, as a Traitor Jailor is less OP imo, so I could accept either role being here.
Town Investigative Remapped Sheriff as TI
Town Investigative Same as before
Town Protective Remapped Doc as TP
Town Protective Same as before
Town Killing Same as before
Town Support Same as before
Random Town Remapped Jailor/Mayor as RT, because guaranteed Jailor and guaranteed Mayor gives town a lot of power unless one of them happens to be Traitor
Random Town Remapped LO as RT, because 3 TI slots is a bit too much
Random Town Remapped Exe
Random Town Original RT slot
Godfather Same as before
Mafioso This is the best 4th Maf in a pre-TMK environment. Currently Mafia is kinda screwed if GF gets chain-blocked. If we ever implement TMK, I'd want this to be replaced with an RM slot.
Mafia Deception (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)
Mafia Support (Replace with RM after rebalance patch)
Is the MD/MS slot thing just a band-aid fix for the MS roles being generally better than the MD roles?

Thoughts?

Town Leader (cannot be Traitor)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

I'd be fine with either

[Crona111]

lol I had this exact rotating gamemode idea today lol

I'm not any good with coming up with Rolelists, but here I go

Town:

Jailor
[b]Town Investigative x2
Town Protective x2
Town Killing
Town Supportive
Random Town x3

Mafia
Godfather
Mafia Killing
Random Mafia


Covens (This can be switched with Mafia for Coven Traitor)
Coven Leader
Medusa
Coven Evil

Neutrals:
Neutral Benign
Neutral Evil


It's not the best, and I'm not sure about having GA, but I feel this is a competent idea

[orangeandblack5]

That is 7/5/3

So even aside from Pirate/GA not being in classic, the town have literally lost majority on D1

And even if you count GA as "Town" they'll lose it by D2