Town Traitor Role List Discussion

[orangeandblack5]

I literally do not care what the Coven version looks like

But I am extremely interested in making sure the normal version is solid

This could definitely be a really great mode if done right.

I have final exams right now, but once those are over I'll throw together something for this we can discuss.

[Joacgroso]

Trans - most noobs mess everything up when theyre town with this role, by staying silent and making dumb transports. They're not gonna get better just cos theyre traitor.

We shouldn't balance the rolelist assuming people will act like noobs. That kind of logic could be used to claim ranked has a balanced rolelist, or that having multiple mediums isn't OP because noobs don't confirm each other anyway.

I agree that this gamemode would be very swingy depending on who the traitor is, but since it's a chaos gamemode I don't think we should worry too much about it.

[orangeandblack5]

fwiw scum-aligned Transporter just sounds incredible

like that's basically the best Mafia role when combined with being undetectable by Investigatives

I still want it in though - should be a good proof of concept

[Achilles]

I personally think no NK makes the most sense considering Mafia/Coven will have 4 members (if you include Traitor). Being a solo NK heavily outmatched probably won't be very fun. Plus the fun with the game mode is being the Town trying to find the Traitor, being the Traitor yourself or being the Mafia/Coven and working with the Traitor.

I've been considering what a Witch might look like. It would then be 5 vs Town, with the Witch not knowing who the Traitor/Mafia are. Could be interesting.

Oh my god the devs beat me to advocating for no NK

[orangeandblack5]

keep it up!

[Ben4lyfe]

I would like to know what would happen with regards to the traitor being alone if all of the mafia/coven are dead. I feel like it would be counter productive to have the game continue on after they are dead because there is nobody there that the traitor can betray with, it should be the highest of priority for the town traitor to keep the mafia alive and maybe give themselves away by doing that, if they cant really be found by a towie in their own right. Also if this is the case it would rid the need of a stalemate detector because it cant lead to an endgame where that is a possibility.

I agree with the point Mystic made though about how many exemptions I made to the role, I think jailor would be too game breaking, however I will say that the rest would be fair game. Debatably retributionist but it just seems like it would be a role where you just have to sit there because if you bring somebody back it just makes the game harder to win for the evils.

Another thought I had for it, this is only cosmetically though, is for the role card make the text of the role be in red or purple following the people the traitor needs to betray with
You could then get super funky with it and make it possible for the town traitor to betray the town with a neutral role, potentially, like orange for arso or deep blue for serial killer. Again, that is a huge spitball there but could be incredibly fun and different for the game. Something for everyone to think about there. The town traitor would still be able to communicate with the faction at night, so it could lead to all manner of new metas. Maybe even making it so the spy can see town traitors at night, just so the town can know if there is a town traitor or not to look out for.

I know I'm rambling but this whole idea is a really good idea and I just wanted to spitball a few ideas. Maybe making it so the spy can only see what the town traitors are saying, so they have to be clever with how they reveal to the faction they're with?

If anyone has any extra thoughts on this please do say!

[MysticMismagius]

I would like to know what would happen with regards to the traitor being alone if all of the mafia/coven are dead. I feel like it would be counter productive to have the game continue on after they are dead because there is nobody there that the traitor can betray with, it should be the highest of priority for the town traitor to keep the mafia alive and maybe give themselves away by doing that, if they cant really be found by a towie in their own right. Also if this is the case it would rid the need of a stalemate detector because it cant lead to an endgame where that is a possibility. Indeed.

I agree with the point Mystic made though about how many exemptions I made to the role, I think jailor would be too game breaking, however I will say that the rest would be fair game. Debatably retributionist but it just seems like it would be a role where you just have to sit there because if you bring somebody back it just makes the game harder to win for the evils. Yeah, the only reason you'd want a Traitor!Ret is because it's unique and that means the Ret isn't townsided. That isn't really enough to justify its presence.

Another thought I had for it, this is only cosmetically though, is for the role card make the text of the role be in red or purple following the people the traitor needs to betray with. This would be cool just so it's obvious who the Traitor was, and so that a Traitor doesn't think they're town for a bit.
You could then get super funky with it and make it possible for the town traitor to betray the town with a neutral role, potentially, like orange for arso or deep blue for serial killer. Again, that is a huge spitball there but could be incredibly fun and different for the game. Something for everyone to think about there. The town traitor would still be able to communicate with the faction at night, so it could lead to all manner of new metas. Maybe even making it so the spy can see town traitors at night, just so the town can know if there is a town traitor or not to look out for. This I don't like. It feels a little too Witch-like to have the Traitor potentially side with neutrals.

I know I'm rambling but this whole idea is a really good idea and I just wanted to spitball a few ideas. Maybe making it so the spy can only see what the town traitors are saying, so they have to be clever with how they reveal to the faction they're with? No. NOOOOOOOOO. Do NOT bring back Old Spy in ANY way, shape, or form. It's already bad enough. It'll just force the Traitor to not talk until the Spy or Spies die, neutering their ability to coordinate with their faction and vice versa.

If anyone has any extra thoughts on this please do say!

[kyuss420]

Trans - most noobs mess everything up when theyre town with this role, by staying silent and making dumb transports. They're not gonna get better just cos theyre traitor.

We shouldn't balance the rolelist assuming people will act like noobs. That kind of logic could be used to claim ranked has a balanced rolelist, or that having multiple mediums isn't OP because noobs don't confirm each other anyway.

I agree that this gamemode would be very swingy depending on who the traitor is, but since it's a chaos gamemode I don't think we should worry too much about it.

So you agree with my list on page 1? The less RT slots the better, so that 3/4 of the ones that spawn arent self confirmable by day 2/3/4.... I think too many RT slots would put ranked heavy players out of the longevity of the mode. and focus on gaining players from the All Any crowd to increase longevity... (altho an RT slot is a far cry from an Any slot - so in practise, I dont think that it opens up claim space as much as it does in theory, would have to ask ranked players their opinion on that...)

[orangeandblack5]

RT should be as much claimspace as you would ever need. Claiming Neutral in Ranked was a bad idea even when those slots existed.

[kyuss420]

RT should be as much claimspace as you would ever need. Claiming Neutral in Ranked was a bad idea even when those slots existed.

until 4 - 5 out of 9 of the slots are self confirmed by day 3...maybe fine in classic, but coven cant claim TS, except medium...

[orangeandblack5]

I literally do not care what the Coven version looks like

I'm literally not going to discuss the Coven version of this unless drastic changes are made to the Coven as a whole, so if that's your main focus feel free to just ignore me

[Joacgroso]

So you agree with my list on page 1? The less RT slots the better, so that 3/4 of the ones that spawn arent self confirmable by day 2/3/4.... I think too many RT slots would put ranked heavy players out of the longevity of the mode. and focus on gaining players from the All Any crowd to increase longevity... (altho a RT slot is a far cry from an Any slot - so in practise, I dont think that it opens up claim space as much as it does in theory, would have to ask ranked players their opinion on that...)

I'm leaving your suggestion here so it's easier to check:
Spoiler: Coven leader
Medusa
Hex master
Random Coven
Vigilante
Crusader
Tracker
Town Protective
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Random Town
Neutral Evil / Neutral Benign / Pirate / Neutral Killing
It depends of wheter you want the gamemode to be chaotic or not. I think it has too many confirmed slots for a chaos gamemode. Personally, I see no reason to include a confirmed tracker. I also see no reason to have confirmed vigis or crusaders (in fact, the possibility of a veteran traitor could counter the jailor meta everyone hates). The more randomness, the better. On the other hand, having so many TI slots would make the game more limited, but at the same time it would make it really chaotic. It would make TIs pretty useless, like citizens. This may appeal to "balanced" players than "chaotic" players.
I do think more TI slots increase claimspace to evils, though they would also buff investigators greatly (which would be countered by their lack of credibility anyway). This amount of TIs could make it interesting for an exe to exist in the 15th slot. I don't think there should be a witch or a NK, since the NK would have no chances of winning anyway and the witch would make evils overpowered. A NB could work too since it's a chaos gamemode.

[kyuss420]

fair points, altho it has the least amount of confirmed slots out of all the chaos modes.... might swap out the tracker, i think i put that in beforehand, because it doesnt confirm coven with 1 visit. As for vigi and crus, i dont think theres really a ''town'' without at least 1 TK, 1 TP, and 1 TS. I chose vigi so town is guarenteed a TK, and Crus cos it counters the jailor meta..

[Achilles]

Here is what I'm thinking as a starting point role list for the Classic Town Traitor. Please discuss what you like and don't like about it below!

Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Executioner
Witch

My thoughts: I think taking roles like Jailor and Mayor that are normally guaranteed as confirmed town and now having to question if they are the Traitor or not is part of the fun of this game mode. There is a good amount of claim space and every Town role is possible. I believe this game mode is about Town vs Mafia+Traitor so having a NK wouldn't make a lot of sense or be very fun. An Executioner to shake things up is always nice and the Witch is interesting in this role list since the Witch wins with the Mafia and the Traitor. This makes the role list a 9 v 5 v 1 where the Witch has to be smart to coordinate with the Mafia/Traitor.

[MysticMismagius]

Here is what I'm thinking as a starting point role list for the Classic Town Traitor. Please discuss what you like and don't like about it below!

Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Executioner
Witch

My thoughts: I think taking roles like Jailor and Mayor that are normally guaranteed as confirmed town and now having to question if they are the Traitor or not is part of the fun of this game mode. There is a good amount of claim space With only one RT slot (which could potentially be taken by the Traitor, there really isn't. I'd want more RT slots here, especially in the place of some of the guaranteed role slots (Sheriff, Doc, and LO come to mind as candidates to be replaced with RT). and every Town role is possible.

I believe this game mode is about Town vs Mafia+Traitor so having a NK wouldn't make a lot of sense or be very fun. Fair enough, it's not really necessary in Classic. An Executioner to shake things up is always nice But is it really that shaken up when it's guaranteed to spawn? Exe's bag of tricks is pretty well known at this point, so most of its "shaking things up" factor comes from the surprise of not knowing it's there until it makes its move. Having a guaranteed Exe slot ruins that.

and the Witch is interesting in this role list since the Witch wins with the Mafia and the Traitor. The trouble is making sure that the Witch doesn't outshine the Traitor as a support class for the Mafia. If that can be managed, then it's fine, but I worry it'll be difficult. This makes the role list a 9 v 5 v 1 where the Witch has to be smart to coordinate with the Mafia/Traitor.

[orangeandblack5]

Here is what I'm thinking as a starting point role list for the Classic Town Traitor. Please discuss what you like and don't like about it below!

Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Executioner
Witch

My thoughts: I think taking roles like Jailor and Mayor that are normally guaranteed as confirmed town and now having to question if they are the Traitor or not is part of the fun of this game mode. There is a good amount of claim space and every Town role is possible. I believe this game mode is about Town vs Mafia+Traitor so having a NK wouldn't make a lot of sense or be very fun. An Executioner to shake things up is always nice and the Witch is interesting in this role list since the Witch wins with the Mafia and the Traitor. This makes the role list a 9 v 5 v 1 where the Witch has to be smart to coordinate with the Mafia/Traitor.

Finished my last final today

Moving out of my apartment

Will get back with you soon

[UzayAltay]

A suggestion (Classic one ) :

3TP
3-4TS
3TI
Vet/Vig (that slot cant roll traitor)
3-4RM
Witch

I avoided TK and NK/B on purpose.
I am unsure whether that is scumsided or not, but I Dont think that is townsided , which is A good start.
Also , I think rather Than Having one role-list , that Game should have multiple role-lists rotating with the same concept.
(Numbers are dynamic mainly Because I am not sure whether 9v6 would be More balanced , or 10v5)

[Achilles]

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=108300

[orangeandblack5]

I have purposefully avoided yet reading this thread, but will do so immediately after making this post.

I think this mode would be a good opportunity to test out the Town Leader idea, as it is both a mode meant for fun but also a greater focus on reads. Thus, trying out the Town Leader slot here makes perfect sense.

In essence, Town Leader exists so that you can either have a Jailor, Mayor, or a Retributionist in any given game, and never more than one of the three. While I think that Jailor is better for Ranked, a mode like this could benefit from having one of the three as a guaranteed town member (provided Mayor's inability to whisper or be healed is removed, as that is much less problematic when Mayor means no Jailor and no Retributionist).

Town Leader (cannot be Traitor)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

If we still aren't doing Town Leader, just put Jailor in I guess, but you are going to get games with Mayor/Jailor/Retri and it's going to be a problem. Plus, the Town Leader thing means you don't have to deal with coding for an evil Retributionist at all.

Lastly, because night actions cannot find the Traitor, I would extend each day's discussion phase by 30 seconds, and each night phase by 10 seconds, to allow more time to review play and find the traitor.

[orangeandblack5]

Allow vigilante and just make him not suicide over the guilt, just put away his gun after 1 kill.
Allow retri to revive mafia members.
There you go.
Retri won't get outed if he doesn't claim retri, just claim Literally Anything Else.
Vigi can kill a townie and survive.
No town role should be excluded, as it allows for 'confirmed' towns. None of that, vigi shouldn't be 100% good.

If a Vigilante kills a town member and then doesn't die the next night they would be guaranteed to be the Traitor. There's also a lot of issues that would have to be addressed with reviving Mafia. You can end up with 2 Godfathers or 2 Mafioso if you don't have special rules for it.

Just make that change to the Vigilante in general, but reduce it down to two shots. There's no reason some Vigs should be able to kill three mafia while another one kills two town. Removing suicide guilt and removing a bullet drastically reduces the swing between the best and worst case Vig games, where at best they shoot two Mafia while at worst they kill one Town, and makes the role much more consistent overall.

Plus, it can easily be a Traitor now.

[orangeandblack5]

Okay I felt like a few suggestions I just read were on the right track, but we'll look at why I think mine is overall the strongest yet and actually walk you through my thoughts

Town Leader (cannot be Traitor)
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Mafioso
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

So I kinda discussed "why Town Leader" in my previous post, but I think it's the best way to leave the very best Town roles off the table while guaranteeing there is always at least one anchor point for the Town in any given game. As only the unique roles are worth making immune to being the traitor, this nets three of the four of them right off the bat.

As for the Town Killing slot, I think that having a Traitor Veteran is an awful idea and it should 100% not be able to be the traitor. Therefore, I'd be fine with swapping this slot for Vigilante and just preventing Veteran from spawning in the mode at all - I think it's a bit too selfish to be folded in with the other "Town Leader" roles.

If we don't do Town Leader, then Ret/Mayor/Veteran should all probably just not be able to spawn and Jailor should be guaranteed. In that case, I could see the Vigilante being traded for a sixth Random Town, which is, in the absence of Citizens, the best open claimspace available to the Mafia.

This focus on limiting the upper echelon of Town roles is why I think the game will work fine in a 10/5 setup without SK - without the possibility for more than one of Town's strongest roles (excluding Transporter I guess), the Town will be much less likely to be significantly stronger than the Mafia. Additionally, the Town Traitor is going to be harder to find than any normal Mafia role, the increased claimspace from more RTs allows them more places to hide, so I don't think we need more than 5 scum out of 10.

I also STRONGLY believe that the focus of this mode should be on the Town Traitor dynamic, and Neutrals in general are already kind of just watered-down town traitors. I wouldn't mind a Witch in this mode, but I think any other Neutral is going to take away from the intended focus of the Town Traitor, making the mode overall less enjoyable. Ergo, I think having no Neutral slots is in the mode's best interests. Maybe Coven needs them, but I'm not even going to touch that, so I would be very okay if the Coven list was quite different from the Classic list.

Lastly, for the Random Mafia, I had Mafia Support down but talked myself out of it at the last minute because a few MD roles are supposed to be buffed this same patch. If that occurs, I think having two RM rather than MS/RM is the right play.

[orangeandblack5]

Here is what I'm thinking as a starting point role list for the Classic Town Traitor. Please discuss what you like and don't like about it below!

Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Godfather
Mafia Deception
Mafia Support
Executioner
Witch

My thoughts: I think taking roles like Jailor and Mayor that are normally guaranteed as confirmed town and now having to question if they are the Traitor or not is part of the fun of this game mode. There is a good amount of claim space and every Town role is possible. I believe this game mode is about Town vs Mafia+Traitor so having a NK wouldn't make a lot of sense or be very fun. An Executioner to shake things up is always nice and the Witch is interesting in this role list since the Witch wins with the Mafia and the Traitor. This makes the role list a 9 v 5 v 1 where the Witch has to be smart to coordinate with the Mafia/Traitor.

First off, I do think that the idea of a traitor Jailor or Mayor, while seemingly fun, would get old really fast due to the MASSIVE damage these roles can cause.

In particular, your list is 9/4/2. If we assume a Town dies N1, that's 8/4/2. If the Town Traitor is a Mayor, the scum have practically already won at the start of Day 2 - majority is 8, and they have exactly eight votes if the Exe just pushes their target for that day's mislynch. That's going to be far too powerful, and Jailor is a similar story by virtue of being a buffed escort, buffed doctor, and buffed vigilante all in one.

I highly doubt these roles being traitor would be fun after one or two games of getting stomped on by a Traitor that lucked into one of the strongest roles in the game. This is the same issue I have with Traitor Veterans, more or less, and in general roles that are powerful enough to be Unique should probably be considered powerful enough to not let them be the Traitor.

As for this suggested list, it actually has relatively little claim space, as there are tightly-drawn boxes the scum need to divvy up amongst themselves, given a fair amount of roles are either exactly specified and almost every non-specific slot is still limited to a certain type. Massclaims would be able to whittle down a lot of scum pretty quickly, given they're forced to claim Sheriff or Doctor unless they want to fight over the slot for their claimed role type and the single Random Town slot.

Also, while I fully support ditching Mafioso as soon as Mafia Tactical kills are added, that's probably a ways down the line. No reason Jailor or an Escort should be able to completely stop the Mafia from killing.

Similarly, having a straight MS/MD distribution means that, once one Mafia role is dead, you can instantly confirm a whole host of them are not in the game. I don't think a Blackmailer dying should really help to instantly confirm every Escort/Investigator.

Lastly, I don't dislike Witch, but I really think that having Neutrals in this mode detracts from what makes the Town Traitor special, so I'd personally avoid it. If we wanted to make a "Lost Wolf"-type role, which is aligned with the Mafia but doesn't know who they are, I think it would work a lot better to just make the Town Traitor that and have them join the Mafia night chat if the Mafia try to kill them. Would be a lot more interesting than just another Witch for much the same dynamic.

[yinandyang1736]

This is a work in progress, but I'd think it may work:
Classic Traitor Gamemode
Jailor - Used to kill Mafia, NK & control Traitor
Town Investigative - Used to find Mafia & NK
Town Investigative - 2nd TI Is always useful
Town Killing - Can be used to kill Traitor, Mafia or NK
Town Protective - Used to protect the town.
Town Support - Can be useful and also may cause chaos if the Traitor is like Transporter.
Random Town - Actual Claimspace is needed for the evil factions.
Random Town - Claim space
Random Town - Claim space
Random Town - Claim Space
Godfather - Leader of Mafia
Mafioso - Used as 2nd killable role for Mafia
Random Mafia - Can be any Mafia role minus GF & Mafioso.
Neutral Killing - It's fun to throw an NK in there in order to scare town and Mafia.
Neutral Begin - Can be a bargaining tool for all factions. It also can cause a great amount of damage to either faction. It also serves as a form of a really scummy claim space.

Coven Traitor Gamemode
Jailor - Used to kill Coven, NK, & control Traitor
Town Investigative - Used to find NK, & Coven
Town Investigative - 2nd TI Is always useful
Town Killing - Can be used to kill Traitor, Coven & NK
Town Protective - Used to protect the town.
Town Support - Can be useful and also may cause chaos if the Traitor is like Transporter.
Random Town - Actual Claim space is needed for the evil factions.
Random Town - Claim space
Random Town - Claim space
Random Town - Claim Space
Hex Master - Like Arsonist, it's basically a douse BUT can really mess with town or people's credibility.
Random Coven - Can be any Coven role minus HM.
Random Coven - Can be any Coven role minus HM.
Neutral Killing - It's fun to throw an NK in there in order to scare town and Coven.
Neutral Begin - Can be a bargaining tool for all factions. It also can cause a great amount of damage to either faction. It also serves as a form of a really scummy claim space. Also, GA could be a deciding factor in who's their target.



EDITS!!
1) Got rid of Any since I can't count and it was 16 originally lol. Also since Traitor is considered a Mafia/Coven, I had to bring down their numbers as well.
2) Decided to change the Random Neutral to Neutral Begin. It can help influence the numbers on either side.
3) Depending on what the NB is, it can change the game based on how they vote.
4) I STILL THINK THIS NEEDS CHANGES/BALANCING., add your opinions below.

[orangeandblack5]

This is a work in progress, but I'd think it may work:
Classic Traitor Gamemode
Jailor - Used to kill Mafia, NK & control Traitor
Town Investigative - Used to find Mafia & NK
Town Investigative - 2nd TI Is always useful
Town Killing - Can be used to kill Traitor, Mafia, NK or even Vampires
Town Protective - Used to protect the town.
Town Support - Can be useful and also may cause chaos if the Traitor is like Transporter.
Random Town - Actual Claimspace is needed for the evil factions.
Random Town - Claim space
Random Town - Claim space
Godfather - Leader of Mafia
Mafia Deception - Makes it so we have more chaos
Mafia Support - The Mafia needs information so it's good to have support.
Random Mafia - Can be any Mafia role minus GF, even Mafioso.
Neutral Killing - It's fun to throw an NK in there in order to scare town and/or Mafia.
Random Neutral - Can be a bargaining tool for all factions. It also can cause a great amount of damage to either faction. It also serves as a form of a really scummy claim space.
Any! - We don't see the Any role slot too often and could also cause more town, more Mafia, or more chaos. Serves as a last resort claim space.

I do have questions for the community:
1) Is this too chaotic? i.e we should swap things out.
2) If you don't think this is balanced, how would you change it?
3) Would you actually consider playing this role list?

1. Yeah, Random Neutral and Any in particular are incredibly swingy, and the mode will be far too unpredictable to actually make the Town Traitor a focus. Having them on top of a Neutral Killing slot is far too much neutral power - you could literally have three Serial Killers.

2. Far too much swing from the Neutrals/Any, and the Mafia with no Mafioso is very weak to the Jailor or any Escorts. 8/5/2/1 is also impossible, as ToS's graphics are only set up for 15 players, so the list automatically needs at least one change to even work.

3. No, for the above reasons.

[yinandyang1736]

I do have questions for the community:
1) Is this too chaotic? i.e we should swap things out.
2) If you don't think this is balanced, how would you change it?
3) Would you actually consider playing this role list?

1. Yeah, Random Neutral and Any in particular are incredibly swingy, and the mode will be far too unpredictable to actually make the Town Traitor a focus. Having them on top of a Neutral Killing slot is far too much neutral power - you could literally have three Serial Killers.

2. Far too much swing from the Neutrals/Any, and the Mafia with no Mafioso is very weak to the Jailor or any Escorts. 8/5/2/1 is also impossible, as ToS's graphics are only set up for 15 players, so the list automatically needs at least one change to even work.

3. No, for the above reasons.

Thanks for the feedback! Now looking at it for a 2nd time, yeah it might be too much swing for a faction and draws attention away. Will edit the role list to make it less chaotic and more based on the work itself. Also, I can't count and it was actually 16.