Town Traitor Role List Discussion

[orangeandblack5]

That is 7/5/3

So even aside from Pirate/GA not being in classic, the town have literally lost majority on D1

And even if you count GA as "Town" they'll lose it by D2

[Crona111]

That is 7/5/3

So even aside from Pirate/GA not being in classic, the town have literally lost majority on D1

And even if you count GA as "Town" they'll lose it by D2

Alright, updated the rolelist to not include Pirate (sadly), and gave town 2 more roles, by taking one Mafia role.

[MysticMismagius]

@Crona The Coven Traitor role list is going to have to be completely different from the Mafia rolelist, so just swapping out a Maf lineup for a Coven one isn't going to work here.

The main reason for this is that Investigator (which you pretty much can't get rid of unless you want to destroy claim space for Coven) is completely broken without a Mafia or NK in the role list. It can 100% confirm townies, which is a huge problem for any Coven mode. So there are two routes we can take here: either include an NK slot, or have a multiball game with two Traitors, one for Maf and one for Coven. There are problems with both of these routes, but under the circumstances you pretty much have to pick one. I'm gonna draft some role lists for each of these paths real quick.

The Multiball Route

Spoiler: Mayor/Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Protective 3TP prevents attacking the Mayor/Jailor from being safe in the instance that Traitors are both TP (Edit: my confidence that this is strictly necessary is waning)
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Random Mafia
Coven Leader
Random Coven
With two Traitors, this makes for a 9v3v3, which is probably the most I can get in this setup without it being really broken. The NK Route

Spoiler: Mayor/Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Medusa
Random Coven
Neutral Benign
Neutral Killing
NK makes this pretty similar to a ranked-style role list. I prefer NB over NE here for two reasons: first, GA alone is more interesting than Exe/Jester, which function pretty similarly and one can even turn into the other. Second, it prevents Medusa from being cornered into claiming Psychic by Investigator. Both of these are really quick 1AM drafts, so if there's anything horribly wrong with them, go ahead and let me know.

[Crona111]

@Crona The Coven Traitor role list is going to have to be completely different from the Mafia rolelist, so just swapping out a Maf lineup for a Coven one isn't going to work here.

The main reason for this is that Investigator (which you pretty much can't get rid of unless you want to destroy claim space for Coven) is completely broken without a Mafia or NK in the role list. It can 100% confirm townies, which is a huge problem for any Coven mode. So there are two routes we can take here: either include an NK slot, or have a multiball game with two Traitors, one for Maf and one for Coven. There are problems with both of these routes, but under the circumstances you pretty much have to pick one. I'm gonna draft some role lists for each of these paths real quick.

The Multiball Route

Mayor/Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Protective 3TP prevents attacking the Mayor/Jailor from being safe in the instance that Traitors are both TP
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Godfather
Random Mafia
Coven Leader
Random CovenWith two Traitors, this makes for a 9v3v3, which is probably the most I can get in this setup without it being really broken.The NK Route

Mayor/Jailor
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Random Town
Random Town
Coven Leader
Medusa
Random Coven
Neutral Benign
Neutral Killing

Both of these are really quick 1AM drafts, so if there's anything horribly wrong with them, go ahead and let me know.

I assumed there's going to be a Traitor gamemode for Coven DLC and Classic, so idk how we'd have coven roles and Mafia roles in the same game.

[MysticMismagius]

I assumed there's going to be a Traitor gamemode for Coven DLC and Classic, so idk how we'd have Coven roles and Mafia roles in the same game.

Nothing actually stops Mafia and Coven from coexisting in the same game mode, it's just that the Coven game modes that exist generally choose not to have them coexist outside of Lovers and AA. It's very easy for a role list to be made that has both Mafia and Coven in it.

The Coven version's role list can and should be fundamentally different than the Classic version, because Coven is fundamentally different from Classic and has different issues that need to be addressed.

[Crona111]

I assumed there's going to be a Traitor gamemode for Coven DLC and Classic, so idk how we'd have Coven roles and Mafia roles in the same game.

Nothing actually stops Mafia and Coven from coexisting in the same game mode, it's just that the Coven game modes that exist generally choose not to have them coexist outside of Lovers and AA. It's very easy for a role list to be made that has both Mafia and Coven in it.

The Coven version's role list can and should be fundamentally different than the Classic version, because Coven is fundamentally different from Classic and has different issues that need to be addressed.

I misunderstood then, I assumed both lists you made would just apply for both, sorry. I personally agree with the Maf/Coven split (Multiball) since it's a battle between the two evil factions, which is absent in the game entirely. Would make the game a lot more interesting, and focuses more on finding the traitors instead of getting rid of annoying Neutral Roles, who imo have no place in this game mode since they're not affected by the existence of a traitor (I only added them in mine because 4 mafia + 1 traitor seems unbalanced)

[MysticMismagius]

I assumed there's going to be a Traitor gamemode for Coven DLC and Classic, so idk how we'd have Coven roles and Mafia roles in the same game.

Nothing actually stops Mafia and Coven from coexisting in the same game mode, it's just that the Coven game modes that exist generally choose not to have them coexist outside of Lovers and AA. It's very easy for a role list to be made that has both Mafia and Coven in it.

The Coven version's role list can and should be fundamentally different than the Classic version, because Coven is fundamentally different from Classic and has different issues that need to be addressed.

I misunderstood then, I assumed both lists you made would just apply for both, sorry. I personally agree with the Maf/Coven split (Multiball) since it's a battle between the two evil factions, which is absent in the game entirely. Would make the game a lot more interesting, and focuses more on finding the traitors instead of getting rid of annoying Neutral Roles, who imo have no place in this game mode since they're not affected by the existence of a traitor (I only added them in mine because 4 mafia + 1 traitor seems unbalanced)

That is true, the only technically (barely) multiball mode in this game outside of All Any is Lovers'. There's no mode that's truly dedicated to this battle between factions. The question, then, is twofold:
1) Do people want a dedicated multiball mode in Coven?
2) Is Town Traitor the place for that?
I don't have an answer for either of these, and this makes me hesitant about going #FullSend on this idea.

[Crona111]

That is true, the only technically (barely) multiball mode in this game outside of All Any is Lovers'. There's no mode that's truly dedicated to this battle between factions. The question, then, is twofold:
1) Do people want a dedicated multiball mode in Coven?
2) Is Town Traitor the place for that?
I don't have an answer for either of these, and this makes me hesitant about going #FullSend on this idea.

Well I can't speak for others on the first one (I would love a 3/3/9 coven vs town vs mafia gamemode), I do believe that this new gamemode could be the place for this, if there's enough support for 2 traitors. I'm a bit split on having 2 traitors, as it makes it even harder for town to win, (even though I like seeing town lose, its better for the game to be balanced).
If anything, we can make the "Coven vs Mafia" gamemode it's own rotating Gamemode (that can rotate with Mafia Returns rather than the Chaos section)

[MysticMismagius]

That is true, the only technically (barely) multiball mode in this game outside of All Any is Lovers'. There's no mode that's truly dedicated to this battle between factions. The question, then, is twofold:
1) Do people want a dedicated multiball mode in Coven?
2) Is Town Traitor the place for that?
I don't have an answer for either of these, and this makes me hesitant about going #FullSend on this idea.

Well I can't speak for others on the first one (I would love a 3/3/9 coven vs town vs mafia gamemode), I do believe that this new gamemode could be the place for this, if there's enough support for 2 traitors. I'm a bit split on having 2 traitors, as it makes it even harder for town to win, (even though I like seeing town lose, its better for the game to be balanced)

There has to be two traitors, or one of the evil teams gets shafted by RNG-- which is even more degenerate than any issue that could be created by two traitors.

I too would love to see a dedicated multiball mode, but I could see reasons why people wouldn't want Mafia running around in their Coven mode.

[Crona111]

That is true, the only technically (barely) multiball mode in this game outside of All Any is Lovers'. There's no mode that's truly dedicated to this battle between factions. The question, then, is twofold:
1) Do people want a dedicated multiball mode in Coven?
2) Is Town Traitor the place for that?
I don't have an answer for either of these, and this makes me hesitant about going #FullSend on this idea.

Well I can't speak for others on the first one (I would love a 3/3/9 coven vs town vs mafia gamemode), I do believe that this new gamemode could be the place for this, if there's enough support for 2 traitors. I'm a bit split on having 2 traitors, as it makes it even harder for town to win, (even though I like seeing town lose, its better for the game to be balanced)

There has to be two traitors, or one of the evil teams gets shafted by RNG-- which is even more degenerate than any issue that could be created by two traitors.

I too would love to see a dedicated multiball mode, but I could see reasons why people wouldn't want Mafia running around in their Coven mode.

What I meant was, to have the Multiball mode you would need 2 traitors, which having 2 traitors would make town a lot more suspicious of anything, and random lynches would probably ensue. Also, another issue with Multiball is the Spy. Do they see both Coven and Mafia visits? Spy wills would be Cluttered, and Spies themselves would be even more powerful than they are now

[MysticMismagius]

What I meant was, to have the Multiball mode you would need 2 traitors, which having 2 traitors would make town a lot more suspicious of anything, and random lynches would probably ensue.

Well, yes, but:
A) That's kinda the point of Town Traitor: to make people suspicious of everyone, even seemingly confirmed town
B) Like I mentioned earlier we really don't have a choice on the matter if we take the multiball route

Also, another issue with Multiball is the Spy. Do they see both Coven and Mafia visits? Spy wills would be cluttered, and Spies themselves would be even more powerful than they are now

Spies do see both Coven and Mafia visits, but this would be a thing regardless of whether or not Traitor exists. In fact it's less of an issue in a Traitor mode because Spy can't see the Traitor's visit (for... some reason, but I ain't complaining).

[Crona111]

What I meant was, to have the Multiball mode you would need 2 traitors, which having 2 traitors would make town a lot more suspicious of anything, and random lynches would probably ensue.

Well, yes, but:
A) That's kinda the point of Town Traitor: to make people suspicious of everyone, even seemingly confirmed town
B) Like I mentioned earlier we really don't have a choice on the matter if we take the multiball route

Also, another issue with Multiball is the Spy. Do they see both Coven and Mafia visits? Spy wills would be cluttered, and Spies themselves would be even more powerful than they are now

Spies do see both Coven and Mafia visits, but this would be a thing regardless of whether or not Traitor exists. In fact it's less of an issue in a Traitor mode because Spy can't see the Traitor's visit (for... some reason, but I ain't complaining).

Spy should not see traitor visits. It's strong enough as is lol. I've never played Lovers mode so I wouldn't know. Also, I'm not saying that the multiball route should have 1 traitor, but instead there's problems with having 2 traitors that the multiball mode will have 100% The gamemode is supposed to give unrest to the Town, yes, but with 2 traitors, constantly screwing over the town with potentially false wills or whatnot, 0 townies would be confirmed ever, as opposed to the few that would be with just 1. This issue is 100% present with the Multiball though, which imo is it's biggest and most prominent flaw

[MysticMismagius]

Yeah I’m not gonna deny that the multiball route has its problems
But so does the NK route (only a single role stands between Investigators and confirming about half the role list, for starters)

Both routes have flaws, it’s just a matter of picking one and then drafting a role list that works with that route
Btw you haven’t said much of anything about the specific role lists that I drew up for each route, so do you have any opinions on them?

[Crona111]

Yeah I’m not gonna deny that the multiball route has its problems
But so does the NK route (only a single role stands between Investigators and confirming about half the role list, for starters)

Both routes have flaws, it’s just a matter of picking one and then drafting a role list that works with that route
Btw you haven’t said much of anything about the specific role lists that I drew up for each route, so do you have any opinions on them?

I have no real opinion on them, other than it's not really fair for Coven to not have Medusa, because then they wont be able to kill until N3. But at the same time, them having medusa is a detriment to them, so RC works.

[MysticMismagius]

Poisoner, Potion Master, and potentially Necromancer can all kill before N3.
RC is mostly to prevent more confirmation issues (Investigator really needs an overhaul, my god) as well as not make it so the Coven lineup is always the same.

[Crona111]

Yeah, but just not always. Anyway, list looks good, so no changes I'd suggest

[kyuss420]

Mystic, your coven list looks much better than the current list on the test server, (which has 0 claim space - the saving grace being the classic/ranked players dont claim til mid game) with the biggest issue in coven mode being a psychic spawning, with only 3 evils in the field, forcing early claims and counter claims. So basically all evils will be revealed by day 6, even with a mislynch or 2, or day 4 should 2 psychics spawn.. (I mean, just look at VIP to see how psy can wreck coven, and add a jailor into that mix)

Invest is slightly more powerful in a coven mode, but no more than a sheriff finding someone ''sus'', except the detection immunity from the necronomicon is compromised with the invest. But Id prefer 2 invests spawning than 1 psy, if the role list is anything like the classic version....

I dont think the multiball mode would work, with 2 of each faction, they have no way of gaining majority considering they are working against each other..

[PatrykSzczescie]

Town traitor is undetectable when not being found as traitor by any investigatives and not changing the role throughout the game. It makes the town traitor OP when being townread than the rest of town.

Thus, most role lists will be quite mafsided.

My suggestion:

Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Investigative
Town Support
Town Support
Town Support
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Killing
Town Killing
Random Mafia
Random Mafia
Random Mafia

[orangeandblack5]

It makes the town traitor OP when being townread than the rest of town.

If they're being townread then A they deserve to be rewarded for that and B you shouldn't be investigating them anyways

[MysticMismagius]

Mystic, your coven list looks much better than the current list on the test server, (which has 0 claim space - the saving grace being the classic/ranked players dont claim til mid game) Oh shit, I didn't see it! What kind of monstrosity did they make for Coven?

with the biggest issue in coven mode being a psychic spawning, with only 3 evils in the field, forcing early claims and counter claims. So basically all evils will be revealed by day 6, even with a mislynch or 2, or day 4 should 2 psychics spawn.. (I mean, just look at VIP to see how psy can wreck coven, and add a jailor into that mix) Oh yeah Psychic is another can of fucking worms, but that doesn't mean Invest isn't gamebreaking.

Invest is slightly more powerful in a coven mode, but no more than a sheriff finding someone ''sus'', except the detection immunity from the necronomicon is compromised with the invest. But Id prefer 2 invests spawning than 1 psy, if the role list is anything like the classic version.... Here's a list of Townies that can be completely, 100% confirmed Town by Investigator when there are no Maf/NK:

-Bodyguard
-Crusader
-Escort
-Investigator
-Jailor (unless there is GA)
-Mayor
-Spy (unless there is GA)
-Tracker
-Transporter
-Veteran (Unless there is Pirate)
-Vigilante (Unless there is Pirate)

That's more than half of all Town roles in the game! Note that even a Sheriff can't do this with an inno result, there are ways to get false innos. There's a reason why VIP mode tries really, really hard not to have an Investigator in it: because it is so broken in Coven right now. You MUST work around it in order to have a functioning Coven mode right now, and I don't like the current method of tearing Coven's claim space to shreds.

I dont think the multiball mode would work, with 2 of each faction, they have no way of gaining majority considering they are working against each other. I did specifically say that it would be 9v3v3 with 2 traitors, so idk where you're getting that from.

[joshdabozz]

@achilles unlike classic TT wheres its like a 60/40, (mafia being 60 and town being 40 ) percent win rate kind of. it seems to me that its more like a 80/20 percent win rate(80 being town and 20 being coven) in coven TT. i believe coven TT needs rolelist tweaking to help the coven. first off replace exe with another neutral, exe has no business being here. second of all replace doc always being there with crus always being there or trapper if crus is too much, and finally make a killing coven role confirmed to be in every game, coven killing is slow, had a cl,hm,necro game as my first one. oh and also make coven traitor purple instead of red.

[kyuss420]

@achilles unlike classic TT wheres its like a 60/40, (mafia being 60 and town being 40 ) percent win rate kind of. it seems to me that its more like a 80/20 percent win rate(80 being town and 20 being coven) in coven TT. i believe coven TT needs rolelist tweaking to help the coven. first off replace exe with another neutral, exe has no business being here. second of all replace doc always being there with crus always being there or trapper if crus is too much, and finally make a killing coven role confirmed to be in every game, coven killing is slow, had a cl,hm,necro game as my first one. oh and also make coven traitor purple instead of red.

wow didnt check the coven role list yet, but CL,HM, Necro spawn? lmao rip coven, yea I wont waste my time....

[MysticMismagius]

The Coven role list is literally the same as the Classic one, with Mafia swapped out for Coven and Witch swapped with GA.

Spoiler: Sheriff
Jailor
Doctor
Lookout
Mayor
Town Investigative
Town Protective
Town Killing
Town Support
Random Town
Coven Leader
Random Coven
Random Coven
Executioner
Guardian Angel

[kyuss420]

so poisoner can spawn in a guaranteed doc game? - lmao
2 RC, so coven have the potential to not have a killing role for first 2 nights - great fun! even with a poisoner, theres a guaranteed doc that has no need to be on anyone for 2 nights...
jailor, mayor...lets hope a psy doesnt spawn as TI or RT or its steamroll time, even fake claiming it will have you proven fake by day 3.
even if Medusa spawns, jailor and mayor are safe from death for 2 nights, as they cant visit, and if jailor doesnt have leads by day 3 then somethings wrong...

town vs coven mode, but town gets a 2 night head start....

1st fix - get that guaranteed doc outta there....

[MysticMismagius]

Oh yeah, super important question about the Coven version of TT here!

@Achilles is Traitor considered good or evil for Psychic?