MysticMismagius wrote:Spooky scary skeletons, and shivers down your spine~
~Shrieking skulls will shock your soul and seal your doom tonight.
MysticMismagius wrote:"RT spawning as TS diminishes claim space" is more of an indictment on TS being too easy to confirm than it is on RT being bad claimspace. If you want to claim a TI slot, you can only claim TI. If you want to claim an RT slot, you can claim TI, TP, TK, or even go all out into a TS claim if you've got the nerve. You have far more options for what to claim ("claimspace" in its most distilled form) when you have an RT slot to claim rather than being stuck into a particular sub-alignment slot that's more easily counterclaimed. Also, your argument banks on RT happening to spawn as TS, which is not all that likely.
It always seemed to me that half of TS's whole jig was confirmability, and as the functions of support like Roleblocking, Ressurecting and chatting with the same dead that other mediums do were just impossible to make unconfirmable- hence forcing TS to own it. You could have the opinion that it's too easy to confirm, but RT's viability as claimspace isn't effected by that- not that I even believe it is bad claimspace. It's just not the only form of claimspace, and I would say not the best- just because of how unwieldy it is; you can't control any form of how the game goes. You put forward that claiming an RT slot opens up TI, TP, TK, or Even TS. This is true, but the same could go for claiming TI, TP, TK or TS directly. This is responded to when you speak about alignments being more easily counterclaimed. This is also true, but it focuses in on the good sides of RT over the bad sides. Yes, early on when you claim a subfaction and there are real people of that subfaction you get countered immediately. This forces an immediate contest with little information that can end in a dead coven, but also possibly multiple dead town, depending on the number of that subfaction there are in the game. This doesn't work with lone roles or lone randoms because there will only be 1 cc, and even if you win the dispute you will likely die the next day or night. RT does have this problem too, but it resolves endgame, with several more confirmed roles, more information, but a larger pool. The whole town minus unique and confirmed townies are in the pool later in the game once the RT start to fill and overflow. I prefer being able to develop the meta of the game and fix minute issues with deep exploitation of Subfactions, and I think the traitor needs that to balance out issues and inforce a meta that puts traitor at the center. With RT, TI has barely any choice but to be watered down and increased in number. There are six of them crawling around the RT slot and they'll all come out and suddenly force the main aspect of the game (the traitor) to become really swingy. I am not going to argue against RT except in the way that it doesn't help this list more than subfactions do. Defending subfactions from the claim of them making "No Claimspace" is what I am doing.
MysticMismagius wrote:This is my ultimate problem with this role list as far as the TKs go. The game basically lives or dies on how good your TKs are, which makes the other 11 players kinda extraneous. This is incredibly swingy in all the wrong ways.
You could think that, I guess. It certainly could be possible. Some people do think "SHOOT N2" and some of them could even be scumreading wizards who do it well. But both normal and skilled players will probably hold fire, and the chances of what I would assume to be the majority of the coven playerbase getting a good vigi isn't hard. Considering most impulse shooters will cause serious damage to their team, The meta will- given time- form to work with this. This will likely suck on weekends, as all rotating modes do. A good analogy would be Vigis holding fire to Crus on VIP. Rarely, if you break it things will work out. When there's a fake crus, or a coven that stands out too much to keep yourself from attacking. But usually that's not how it'll turn out. Usually people will wait until a claimspace dispute shows up and then shoot based on the results. The coven's job is to defend from the consequences of these claimspace disputes. This is how most games go anyways, just here consequences can happen and be defended from at night, too. Yes, the TKs could decide the game, but because of the usual result of that being a loss, the town will seek to undo the strategies making them lose and eventually heavily discourage rash TK decisions. I can imagine this eventually becoming a "second" sort of lynching, as town discusses who should be shot in the night as much as hung in the day. The TK only have the job of figuring who to trust, who's logic checks out etc. It's like a lever. TK pull the lever, but TI make the lever effective. TP keeps the machine running, and doc can even overrule something's to egregious of a misplay. It's all a well oiled machine, not extraneous. I may be focusing on this a tad too much but just to add extra clarity I have a question; does CL ruin coven? You could genuinely say yes and mean it, but CL is vastly stronger than the other coven. That much is obvious. It gets basic defense from the necronomicon and has a power objectively better than roleblocking, combined with killing after N3. It is in control of all of Coven's KPN, and if it dies early on coven usually follows. Yet CL is in every coven list with coven in it. It is seen to make coven instead of destroying it. Even under the circumstance where TK had complete control over everything, which I find to be less than accurate, there are far more unreasonable things than having 4 TK, a possible and maybe even more balanced outcome in the current ranked rolelist.
MysticMismagius wrote:I get that 2TK is a requirement because one of them can be Traitor, but there is such thing as too much. 4TK crosses that line and then some.
Either it's 3 TK with coven having one or the vigilantes are suffering from one of these issues: They're underinformed (TI traitor, Medium), They're inaffective (TP, Trans or Escort), or they're fighting against the mayor.
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not about Town handling it, it's about Coven being able to handle it. You are banking on Traitor being TK in order for this TK lineup to theoretically not be OP. You do realize that the Traitor is chosen completely randomly, right?
I feel so dumb, because I meant "Coven can handle it" but wrote town instead for seemingly no reason. My last response thing explains it better than I did in my last post. I'm not banking on a chance, because I simply don't do that. The only time I have has been a list with the Any role in it, in which I was banking on the rolelist not having vampires for it to be good; and even then I admitted that vampires would ruin it. Here what I was trying to say was on the identity of the traitor balancing out the town. If TK looks too strong, I bet 1 TI in the whole 10 person town doesn't. I'd bet coven having their on personal doctor doesn't either. As would I bet a coven mayor doesn't. The point is that if TK isn't the traitor, It being "OP" is just the concession for having a useful traitor taken from them. It being random is what I am banking on.
MysticMismagius wrote:The point of me saying "god forbid Mayor or Ret" spawns is that 4TK including Jailor is already impossibly powerful. If Ret/Mayor spawns on top of that, Coven basically has no chance unless the entire town is a bunch of troglodytes.
lmao you make it sound like there's four TK plus jailor lol that'd be ridiculous. Mayor/Ret does stress out TP a little, though I understand that they are more powerful. But... they always are. Mayor is accounted for. I made sure that Mayor could be countered as coven. Any traitor role could help take mayor out, even TI. (though through TI you will need a bit more skill because it relies off of freestyling off of town's ignorance.) Not hardcountered, I should mention, because that's just... bad? But it can be countered. Making counterplay for ret is impossible. Maybe I should find a way to make this rolelist not have RTS. a Chance of mayor is necessary though because it's like something Achilles demands. However, yeah Ret is broken as heck. Confirms 2 people as not just not coven but also traitor basically. Broken af, but also mostly unfixable. TS for Trans or Medium would be something I would not be opposed to.
MysticMismagius wrote:It's not that Necro doesn't work, but that having it be guaranteed is pretty random and makes it very easy for Town to figure out Coven's exact lineup. Double RC creates more ambiguity for the Town, and more of that chaotic variety goodness for the Coven.
Yeah yeah people love randoms i get it. However, What leads to more new play- A role that is usually undervalued and unusable due to it's extreme situationality getting all the situationality it could ever ask for with a wider variety of actions and choices unseen in other coven gamemodes, or something that decides roles simply by random, so that you don't get to play with said new content in favor of a role you may not have played recently, but have played plenty of times before in a very similar situation. Necro is just a deeper role here than otherwise. What do you mean you made an argument for Double RC's effect on town instead of an argument of replayability? Hogwash. But Town figuring out's coven's lineup isn't that bad when they're taking 1KPN more death, failing their shots on coven, or getting roleblocked. (if that's what your worry was)
The necromancer is more opinion than anything though so make it RC if you really think that's the better choice, I just disagree
MysticMismagius wrote:Don't worry about it, it's fine.
Yeah whatever.